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Passions in Poetry

Who says it's not the way?

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Elizabeth
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0 posted 10-01-1999 03:05 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

I want to know why some people seem to think the have the God-given right to tell everyone else how to deal with the blows Life hands them. People deal with things differently, and just because one person thinks, "That's not the way to deal with it!" does not mean it won't work for another.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Witch's Brat
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1 posted 10-01-1999 11:48 PM       View Profile for Witch's Brat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Witch's Brat

Give me a break, Elizabeth. Quit whining.
Julie Jordan Scott
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since 09-19-99
Posts 146
Bakersfield, CA USA


2 posted 10-02-1999 02:22 AM       View Profile for Julie Jordan Scott   Email Julie Jordan Scott   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Julie Jordan Scott's Home Page   View IP for Julie Jordan Scott

Elizabeth, I have to agree with you that it is challenging to bite my tongue when people tell me how to "fix" whatever it is they perceive needs "fixing".

You are right: we all deal with situations differently. We all come to our experiences with different backgrounds.

Having lost a child at birth, I became a leader of a local support group. When I would open a meeting, I would say we had similar experiences and similar pain, but no one's loss is exactly the same even if it is the same sort of loss. Even in this situation, the partners will react to the loss in a different way.

Its like I tell my daughter, wouldn't the world be a dull place if we were all exactly the same?

------------------
Julie Jordan Scott is a Freelance Writer and Public Speaker,
but her favorite role is that of Mommy! Visit her website at
http://www.5passions.com
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


3 posted 10-02-1999 04:51 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Elizabeth,
I'm not sure what you are referring to but I would argue that we need more advice, more conversation, and more discussion, not less. Just remember, it's your choice to ignore it.

Brad
Elizabeth
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4 posted 10-02-1999 08:53 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

I am tired of other people saying, "Don't try that! I tried that, and it didn't work!" If something makes you feel better, you should do it. At least that's how I feel. There are some things I would not like someone I cared about to do, because it hurts to see someone do that. If I want to do something like that, I'll do it. Don't tell me what to do and what not to do. Just let me live!

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Julie
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since 08-20-99
Posts 742
Houston, TX


5 posted 10-03-1999 07:13 PM       View Profile for Julie   Email Julie   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Julie

Elizabeth,
Just because something feels good does not
mean it is okay to do it. I think your question is very "general" so it is kind of hard to say I agree or disagree. As a general rule it is best to seek the opinions of at least three to five people for major decisions, then do a little research of your own, then make your own decision. No matter what decisions you make you should ask yourself...who is this going to affect and what could be the best and worst outcomes.

Thank You...Dr. Julie signing off...

------------------
Julie
-------------------------
Thou who has given so much to me,
give one thing more: a grateful heart.
>George Herbert



Witch's Brat
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6 posted 10-03-1999 10:06 PM       View Profile for Witch's Brat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Witch's Brat

.


[This message has been edited by Witch's Brat (edited 10-03-1999).]
Elizabeth
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7 posted 10-03-1999 10:08 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Witch's Brat--leave me alone

Dr. Julie--had to keep the question general. And the whole reason people do the things they do is because they feel good, but it's not okay to do them.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Christopher
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Purgatorial Incarceration


8 posted 10-04-1999 12:10 AM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

Well, a suggestion mught be to take it just as that.
When someone tells you something from their perspective, it might help to shed some light on your own situation. With so many different people in the world, it is entirely possible that something that works for one person might work for you as well. At the least it can't help to consider it!
Brad
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Jejudo, South Korea


9 posted 10-04-1999 04:35 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Elizabeth,
Is this a general rant or a topic for discussion? If it's a rant (we all need to do them), then maybe it should be posted somewhere else? If it's a topic for discussion, I think it's an interesting one.

When should people speak?

When should they not?

What is useful/less advice?

When is advice irritating?

How do we deal with that?

Why is it irritating?

What is a 'right'?

Do we have the right not to be inflicted by someone else's right?

Should people just let people live?

Is it possible to leave people alone?

Just wonder what you want to discuss?


Brad
Elizabeth
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10 posted 10-04-1999 05:08 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

If anyone has something they would like to say in response to Brad's questions, be my guest.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Trevor
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11 posted 10-05-1999 02:35 AM       View Profile for Trevor   Email Trevor   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Trevor

How many of us would have lived past the age of five if our parents, gaurdians, siblings, etc. didn't tell us, on many occasions, what we should do or shouldn't do? I know I would have lit myself on fire (I did accidently light my leg on fire once when I was ten...guess I should've listened to my mom about playing with matches), been struck by cars (often...probably weekly), poisoned myself, broken my neck, poked my eye out, dismembered my limbs, etc if it wasn't for someone trying to look out for me....which is usually the reason for advice....because someone cares. Advice is often important, whether you agree with it or not but if forced on someone, it can be aggravating and one often gets a feeling of suppression. If you really believe in "live and let live" then shouldn't you feel that someone has the right to give advice....I mean if they chose to live their life by doling out advice??? I too sometimes feel the frustration of people always trying to tell you what's right and wrong (expecially since I've moved back home) but one must remember that usually people do this because they care and want you to have the best life you can have.....and sometimes they forget that being left alone sometimes is included in the "best life". Any weighs that's my meek two cents....my fifteen seconds of fame is over so take care,
Trevor
JP
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12 posted 10-05-1999 10:05 AM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

I'm confused... was there a point to the original post? Seems like someone just felt like spitting venom... not that we don't all need to do that once in a while, but I agree with Brad - perhaps it was better posted somewhere else (like home)

------------------
Yesterday is ash, tomorrow is smoke; only today does the fire burn.
JP

Elizabeth
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13 posted 10-05-1999 11:35 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

It doesn't help to post the problem at home if the problem is NOT at home. If someone got to you, JP, wouldn't you tell them so-no wait, don't answer, I know you would. I'm sorry, but I do not like being told what not to do when I haven't had a chance to try things out yet. I don't even carry these things as far as they do, and here they are saying what not to do!

Everyone is different. I deal with my problems in my way, you deal with them in yours, and we'll let it go at that.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Munda
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since 10-08-1999
Posts 3629
The Hague, The Netherlands


14 posted 10-10-1999 11:45 AM       View Profile for Munda   Email Munda   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Munda's Home Page   View IP for Munda

All I can say is that you are entitled to make your own mistakes, and, hopefully, learn from them, but please try to keep in mind that people that care for you only try to protect you from more pain. My attidude towards 'asked' advise has always been; if you ask my advise, I'll give you my honest view, but will never expect you to follow it. That has to be your choice and I won't think less of you if you decide to do something different. What's good, or bad, for me, doesn't mean it's the same for you.
Brad
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Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


15 posted 10-17-1999 11:30 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Elizabeth,
I have tried to push this in the direction that I wanted it to go -- a more abstract discussion of rights and speech and so forth. Nevertheless, from your original statement, one can only say one thing. People do have the 'God given right to tell you what to do.' It's called free speech. And, in certain countries, at least, it is granted by God (at least that's how it reads).

It is your right, however, not to listen. I said this before but I'm bored so I'll say it again.

Brad

Elizabeth
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16 posted 10-23-1999 03:41 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

OK, maybe they do have the right, but that does not make them God.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


17 posted 10-23-1999 03:59 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

No, the only person who can make anyone God is you.
Elizabeth
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18 posted 10-23-1999 05:50 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

And more on free speech--yes, we all do have that right, but where is the line between using it and abusing it? I mean, if I post a message in the forums to someone and say, "**** off, bitch", people aren't going to say, "She's just exercising her right to free speech. She can say what she wants." They're going to delete the post.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


19 posted 10-23-1999 06:38 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Yeah, I guess you would be deleted here but at other forums you would not. I just read a poem at the Open Scroll, for example, where people were just complaining that they didn't like the poem in 'all caps' and they author responded with nothing but profanity and labeling everybody who commented a loser(the author's explanation makes no sense to me).

Ron and others here have decided to keep to certain, more or less, community standards. Other people feel that the 'right' to free speech supercedes those standards but I personally believe that the free exchange of ideas is more important than 'free speech' in itself. The only reason people would use the language you mentioned is that it is considered taboo. I don't detect any serious or controversial thought there. Believe it or not limitations on 'speech' can increase the flow of ideas.

Are these standards arbitrary? Yes. Are they necessary? I think it depends on what you want to do. Free speech, like all 'rights', are not really absolutes; they are working ideas and it's up to all of us to defend and to try to make correct choices when it comes to the use of those rights. It's not easy because the foundation for most of these 'rights' is little more than a piece of paper or simply precedent. When someone declares they have a 'right' to speak, I just smile because that 'right' can be taken away at any time.

In America, you don't have the right to advocate the violent overthrow of the US government. People advocate this all the time but they're just not that important. They can be ignored just as you can ignore someone who says something you don't want to hear (if they use physical force, that's assault.) One wonders what would happen if anybody actually became a threat?

Who knows?

Brad
Elizabeth
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20 posted 10-23-1999 07:00 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Take this situation: 2 girls. One of them has tried drugs. Then after there is havoc over her drug use and she decides not to use them anymore, she says, "Don't try drugs! I tried them and it isn't the way to solve your problems!" And then the other girl says, "Hey, who are you to tell me how to try to solve my problems?" She is going to deal with things in the way she wants to, and is going to get real annoyed when someone who thinks she can just do whatever she wants to and then tell others not to do it because it didn't work for HER.

Just an example.

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

Witch's Brat
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since 09-17-99
Posts 103


21 posted 11-01-1999 06:16 PM       View Profile for Witch's Brat   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Witch's Brat

OK, Elizabeth, I'll try to reply to your statement. I can totally understand (although I didn't seem to earlier) why you would feel annoyed by someone saying things like that to you (in your previous posting). When somebody does something like you talked about and then tells others NOT to, you never know why they are saying so. Maybe that person honestly does not want others to go through a battle with drugs or whatever. Or (and this is probably highly unlikely) they could simply be trying to keep the limelight on themselves. Either way, I would also be annoyed that they thought they could tell me how to deal with my problems.

The thing is, Elizabeth, you have said the same things to your friends. I know you, and you have said to others, "I won't tell you how I deal with things because I don't want you going and doing the same thing." I realize you care about this person and can understand why you would say so to them. But what is the difference between the two situations?

Well, I hope this has cleared things up a little bit for you.

------------------
The darkness is the light...
Brad
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22 posted 11-01-1999 08:20 PM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

Elizabeth,
Well, I think I can move away from being preachy for a moment but let's try a reversal of your hypothetical. What about a mother who is a Christian Scientist? She has a child with pneumonia and refuses to go to the hospital or get any other medical attention besides prayer. Do you have the right to suggest alternative solutions? Does she have the right to ignore them? How do American citizens respond to certain African immigrants (not all of course and I forget where they actually do this -- please forgive me) that practice vaginal mutilation in the US?

1st woman: thinking about using drugs
2nd woman: has used drugs and stopped

The question of drugs still seems to be in the response, not the suggestion itself. Does the first woman respect the second woman? If not, it seems fairly simple to ignore the suggestion. If so, is the first woman afraid that she is making a mistake but doesn't care and doesn't want to be told what she already knows? I smoke and the funny thing about smokers is that we know (at least we say we do) all the problems involved. When someone tells me to stop, I smile and agree but I'm not stopping (at least I haven't tried yet). If someone is angry at smoke, I don't smoke in front of them. There is very little that a non-smoker can say to me that I don't already know. But it's funny,a smoker can say the exact same thing (in a very different tone) and we both end up nodding our heads. We should stop smoking.

In your hypothetical situation, the first woman's response is not necessarily geared towards the advice but to the self-righteous attitude of the speaker. It is this attitude that I would argue should either be ignored with a smile or engaged on an intellectual level, explored and evaluated, not on a right or wrong level, but on how useful whatever the second woman's statement can be useful to the first woman.

As long as words make us feel violated, as long as we perceive that this person does not respect 'me' in the way I wish, we do not listen and perhaps revolt against that self-righteousness. A revolt from tone seems just the reverse of following the advice unthinkingly. Both are forms of being controlled and not controlling one's life.

In other words, your hypothetical can be seen as a power play. You can only gain by such a situation by ignoring the 'winning' and 'losing' of the discussion, not caring about what the other speaker actually feels, and try to think about the words and how they might be useful or useless in your situation. It's your choice regardless of what other people say.

Does this make any sense?
Brad
Elizabeth
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23 posted 11-01-1999 09:29 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Yeah, it makes sense, Brad. Thanks for all the help you have given to a confused, hysterical female. The hypothetical situation (the drugs) was based on a real one (I won't get into that). You really hit the nail on the head with saying that the 1st woman's response was geared towards the self-righteous attitude of the 2nd woman. I didn't realize it at first, but now I know that that was how I felt. It really gets to me when somebody attempts something, raises some general hell, and then tells others not to do it. It sometimes seems that the person is not trying to attract others, but wants the attention for themselves. And yes, it does happen. Maybe not very often, but it does happen.

Witch's Brat-yes, you're right that I have said the same thing to some of my friends. However, there ARE differences in the situations--I had not stirred up a bunch of people with things I had done, and I honestly cared about the person, and was not just saying empty words for the sake of saying words.

Thank you everyone!

------------------
*Elizabeth*

"Dwelt a maid belov'd and cherish'd by high and low,
But with autumn leaf she perish'd, long time ago..."

"Something sweet, something sort of grandish, sweeps my soul when thou art near..."

 
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