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Passions in Poetry

Rambling Thoughts - Take 1

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Ron
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0 posted 07-27-99 12:27 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Love



It's easy to love someone you know. It's harder to love someone you know well. And it's more important to love those you've never met.

Our first and last love is always self. Happy people just learn to do it selflessly.

No one loves unconditionally except God and most mothers.
Corollary: Think about that before you do something you know you shouldn't.

Sex without love is just mutual masturbation.

The only thing worse than trying to change the one you love is succeeding.

Hate and love are not opposites, but rather intimately linked. The opposite of love is apathy.
Corollary: The worst thing you can do to another person is just not give a shit.

There is no such thing as "enough" love. Unfortunately, there is a thing called "too much."
Elizabeth
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Member Rara Avis
since 06-07-99
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America the beautiful


1 posted 07-27-99 01:52 PM       View Profile for Elizabeth   Email Elizabeth   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Elizabeth's Home Page   View IP for Elizabeth

Something I've been thinking a lot about lately. You used a very apt phrase to describe loveless sex *sighs* I won't ever give myself to someone until they love me, no matter how much they want me *sighs again*
pandora
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since 07-26-99
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2 posted 07-27-99 07:24 PM       View Profile for pandora   Email pandora   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for pandora

Hey,Ron--

Agree with the sex without love statement. Totally agree with the love vs. apathy statement.... been saying that for years. But, disagree with the last statement about "too much" love... no such thing.

just MHO....

The other statements, I need to digest...


------------------
With one wish we wake the will within wisdom. With one will we wish the wisdom within waking.
--pandora
Ron
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3 posted 07-27-99 07:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Elizabeth - Like you, I am saving myself. 'Course, my case, that hasn't been real tough.

Pandora - one example of "too much" love is obsessive love, perhaps the greatest destructive force on the planet. Another example is the parent who can't let the child grow up. Another is... Well, you get the idea, and I'm sure you can think of a few examples, too.
fjones
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since 06-07-99
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MS


4 posted 07-27-99 09:56 PM       View Profile for fjones   Email fjones   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for fjones

But Ron, you are using love loosely when you say obsessive love. That is not love just an obsession. A parent not letting go –that is bad parenting –it has nothing to do with loving too much. You are describing character flaws.
Ron
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5 posted 07-27-99 11:06 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

One of the problems with the English language is that we don't have nearly enough words to describe the various (infinite?) kinds of love in this world. Faye, you are absolutely right that these are what most of us would call character flaws. Of course, ten years ago, there were some that called chivalry a character flaw, too, and even today a man risks the label of "sexist" for holding a door open. I seriously doubt the parent that "protects" their child would ever agree their love was flawed. Or, worse, that it wasn't love at all. Does the small child who accidentally hugs a puppy to death love their pet any less than the child with better judgement or closer supervision?

I don't know of any universally accepted definition of love, not one that doesn't open the door for a hundred exceptions to the rule. Nor do I have the power to look into another's heart and know what they feel. Lacking both a definition and omniscience, I can only accept what they tell me. If you tell me you love someone, I have no choice but to believe you - reserving judgement as to whether it is a healthy or unhealthy love (and knowing, even then, my judgment will necessarily be subjective). But I can't and won't tell you that what you feel isn't love.

My statement above was meant to be poetic. That is, it was meant to reveal a truth in a memorable and, I had hoped, poetic manner. It's certainly not scientific or rigorous, and there's a lot of room for semantic discussion. Does the woman who loves her child more than God love the child "too much," or does she love God "too little?" Does the man who commits suicide when his wife leaves him love the woman "too much," or does he love himself "too little?" Subjective, loaded terms. Semantic circles. But it doesn't change the essential truth - love can be, and too often is, destructive.

And that, very simply, is what I meant by "too much" love.


[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 07-27-99).]
Poet deVine
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6 posted 07-27-99 11:55 PM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

I'm very careful about using the word love. I won't give it out freely as some do (for instance: saying "love you" at the end of a conversation or e-mail).

I think we miss out on loving someone because we're too shy to speak up! We are afraid of being rejected and hurt. Sometimes we cover it up with bravado and humor (me). Sometimes we cover it up with apathy.

Now here's another question? Where should one look for love? Bars? (forget it I don't drink and smoke gives me a headache) Church, yes ok....but would he frown at my naughtiness? Post an ad in the personals section of Yahoo? (all they want is a little afternoon quickie - and that would be nice if it was with the right guy but not with someone who only wants that!) Sex without love is just like shaking hands. No attachment..hi, how are you? I'm fine, how are you?......end of contact.

Is there a difference in just loving someone and being in love? I love my family and a couple of my friends. I am not IN love.

So, we went in circles and arrived back at the starting point. Perhaps that's what love is.....a circle of emotions that you aren't sure where it begins and where it ends.....
Ron
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7 posted 07-28-99 02:12 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It seems we've hit a hot topic here - and on my very favorite subject, too! You raise a lot of great questions, PdV, and as you suggest, there's probably not any real answers. But, then, that's never stopped me before…

I completely, totally agree the word "love" should be used very carefully. There's a thread in the Prose forum right now suggesting we should say "I love you" even more than we do. The suggestion has a lot of merit and would likely make the world a better place. The problem is, as I said before, we only have one word to cover a whole universe of emotions. I would probably buy into "I appreciate you" in a heart beat. But when we use the word "love" too freely, we cheapen its real meaning. And you know who's at least partially to blame? You and I and a few thousand other writers. I felt so strongly about this I wrote a poem about it (which I suspect you'll remember). I'll post it in Open Poetry tonight.

I also agree that we can miss out on the opportunity to love because we're shy or afraid (or are those both the same thing?). I'm not sure there are any real answers, but you might be interested in an article hidden deep in the bowels of Passions, called "What Women Want" (and I suspect it would be equally true of men, despite the cliches about what men "really" want).

Where should one look for love? Personally, I don't think one should. I think part of the problem with our society is that we've made love (and happiness) a goal instead of a naturally occurring condition. I think that's part of the reason we're shy and afraid. I think that's part of the reason so many relationship fail, because we've set high expectations and sought something external that should really be internal. Look for friends. Love will surely follow. (And, yes, I know that begs the question: where should one look for friends? )

The difference between loving someone and being in love? I suspect this is the closest our language comes to having different words for "love." Too bad all romantic relationship couldn't stick to "I'm in love with you" all the time. It would free up "I love you" for other things. And of course, etymologically, that's the difference between the two. "Being in love" refers to romantic love. "I love you" may or may not be romantic. Poetically, maybe we could say that loving family and friends is one person loving another. Being in love is two people joining into a single whole (which I don't buy, but it does sound good).

As to whether love or a discussion about love is a circle, without beginning or end, you might well be right. But both sure are a lot of fun!
nicnac8
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since 07-28-99
Posts 46
New York, N.Y. USA


8 posted 07-28-99 04:49 AM       View Profile for nicnac8   Email nicnac8   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for nicnac8

Like Elizabeth and Ron I'm saving myself for someone special.By the way i really liked ur philosophies Ron
Poet deVine
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9 posted 07-28-99 07:44 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

From Byron:

Devotion wafts the mind above,
But heaven itself descends in love;
A feeling from the Godhead caught,
To wean from self each sordid thought;
A ray of Him who form'd the whole;
A glory circling round the soul!


JP
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since 05-25-99
Posts 1391
Loomis, CA


10 posted 07-28-99 06:27 PM       View Profile for JP   Email JP   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit JP's Home Page   View IP for JP

Apathy is the sickness of our souls and the cancer of our minds. It eats it's way through our hearts, eventually destroying any hope of humanity's lasting reign.

Love, an interesting ideal. I use the word a lot, for even with its many nuances, many forms, and many meanings, everything comes down to the simple base of love. I love myself, I love my fellow human, I love my universe. The gods of power have given me the gift of knowledge that I am but a part of the whole, and my function as that part is to express my love in all ways possible. Synergy is the goal, and love is the fuel.



------------------
Dum spiro, spero
JP


Sunshine
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since 06-25-99
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Listening to every heart


11 posted 08-06-99 11:53 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Cannot help but jump on the bandwagon. As a mother, wife, sister, daughter, Love for me has never been simple. So many things can interfere. An argument. Distance. Being hurt by those you have nurtured. Does love go away because of pain?

God's love never left...he gave his Son to us and I'm sure we still cause him a great deal of pain. There may be some atheists out there...hello...but this is what I feel. If God can be loving, and forgiving, isn't that the very least I can do? And, while I use the word "love" freely, I never use it when I do not mean it. Therefore, all of you serious folks out there will now understand when I say "I love this forum, for it means a lot to me to be able to say and write what is deep within me, knowing that it will be taken seriously, and with a grain of salt when required, and laughter when most needed."

You folks are great, and have provided a wonderful service in Passions. Thanks from the bottom of my heart.



------------------
© KRJ
Sunshine
Words will always express our feelings true. ~~~ KRJ
Look, then, into thine heart, and write ~~~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

~one voice~
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since 07-08-99
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Billings, MT USA


12 posted 08-08-99 12:51 AM       View Profile for ~one voice~   Email ~one voice~   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for ~one voice~

Love is:

a rain of diamonds in the mind

the soul's fruit sliced in two

a dark spring loosed at the lips of light

under-earth waters unlocked from their lurking to sparkle in a crevice parted by the sun

a temple, not of stone, but cloud beyond the heart's roar and all violence

outside the anvil-stunned domain
unfrenzied space

between the greens of change
blue permanence

one short stop to the good ground

the bite in to bread again

(I don't remember where I found this, but it sits in my mind. I thought I would share it with you as it sort of goes with the subject.)

------------------
~onevoice~

"She looked at her life
like lines, never-ending,
constantly forming,
reforming and bending."


Brad
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since 08-20-99
Posts 5896
Jejudo, South Korea


13 posted 10-21-1999 03:38 AM       View Profile for Brad   Email Brad   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Brad

SD (and others). I think some of these posts fit in with the current debate. What do you think?
Brad
Systematic Decay
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since 09-15-99
Posts 1312
That place with padded walls a


14 posted 10-21-1999 04:14 AM       View Profile for Systematic Decay   Email Systematic Decay   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Systematic Decay

Brad: indeed it does. LOL I like Rons description of sex without love, And Poet deVine's as well.

------------------
"Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage."
-Billy Corgan-
 
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