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Passions in Poetry

A Debate I Recently Had.......

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Alain DeLaCendres
since 07-02-99
Posts 121

0 posted 07-26-99 12:28 AM       View Profile for Alain DeLaCendres   Email Alain DeLaCendres   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alain DeLaCendres

Recently, at another posting board, a person calling himself The Philo started a debate with me. I rather enjoyed the discussion, though it was rather lengthy...So, I'll post here the inital question that he asked and my initial response...there were about eight seperate peices to our debate..I will only post each piece if it is aked for, so as not to waste space on something that doesn't interest anyone..thanks..

"The Philo's Question"
An Argument: What is the source of the human Standard? More specifically, what is the natural Law being adhered to when a
Man says to another Man: "That's not fair!" or "I was there first!" or "I payed for you on Tuesday, spare me a bit of change!" Answer me that.
The last in line did never,
in trying to sever the law,
said "you there in first, now sever
your ties to that thing I just saw!"
For it wouldn't be fair, no it wouldn't,
to say that First didn't belong
where he was: just because you adher to,
a code of life that's just as wrong?

"My Response..."

The only thing I have that is even close to an answer for you is this: The "human standard" comes from Humanity. And us humans (men and women alike) have created humanity and we are the ones
who continue to shape and change it. Not every change is agreeable to every person, but sometimes that happens. I myself think that humanity has many, many faults. We as humans a have placed ourselves on a high stool and consider ourselves totally in control, in totally control of our surroundings, everything that
happens in our lives, and that we shall be here forever. "Forever" is a word known only to the heart. Even the greatest of Empires though out history have fallen. And us Americans (please excuse this if anyone is not an American..) believe that we are on top of the world and
nothing can touch us. We claim to have God on our side. But then when has the "opposition" not thought that they were right? If one side admitted they were wrong, there would be no conflict. But
too often, both sides consider themselves "right" and a fight follows. Be it a war, a civil war, or as small as an arguement with a friend, etc..
As for the thing about "I was there first!" I guess that goes back to both sides thinking that they are right, and neither bothering to look at the situation from the other's point of view.
Fair, well, in my opinion, EVERYONE
defines "fair" as something else. Mostly though, our definitions of fair change to fit our needs. What is fair once may not be fair the next time because the situation is different. I don't think there is a "natural law" being adhered to in those situations. As I said, it changes on every situation to fit our wants and need (more often
our wants). I feel that "Humanity" is a sad, sick animal that need some serious medicine. But we can't "put it down" because as humans we could not live without some kind of proposed order. We would run around like chickens without our heads if there wasn't someone telling us what we can or can't do. Everyone would go their way, and no one
would be going the same way. We would be in
terrible trouble. But we complain about the
current system not being "fair", but we never stop to think what we would do without someone helping us along. In my opinion, as a whole, humans are pretty much stupid. I'm not saying everyone is stupid, but the majority is. I am no one to judge, I myself am a human and pretty stupid sometimes. I hope I haven't offended anyone, I cry your pardon if I have. I guess I'd better stifle it now cause I've started to ramble...I really got far before I caught myself
this time...Well, there you go "The Philo", that my answer. I hope I make sense enough that you could at least get an idea of what I was saying. Sorry if I got too far out of it...

sorry so long..hope someone found this at least a little interesting....

Tout s'en va, tout passe, l'eau coule, et le couer oublie.
since 07-27-99
Posts 172
Auckland, New Zealand

1 posted 07-27-99 07:49 AM       View Profile for Seaangel   Email Seaangel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Seaangel

Hi, found the question very interesting.

It's the question of ethics, isn't it? What's right and wrong, and who determines it? I think that ethical rules evolved with the human race; that it was based on survival; ie don't kill your neighbour because they might save you from a mastodon tomorrow, nurture your kids so they can grow up and have kids of their own and keep you and the family and the race alive.

Today the rules have changed. I agree with you, Alain, that we humans today often forget any kind of moral high ground and just try to use what we can to get what we want, but I don't believe that it is generally true. I have seldom met a truly nasty person. Mostly the fault is thoughtlessness (a fault I share!) and a little selfishness (again, me too), and while I won't deny that there is true evil in the world, I will insist on there being true goodness. Forgive any offence, I get excited on my soapbox!
Alain DeLaCendres
since 07-02-99
Posts 121

2 posted 07-27-99 11:08 PM       View Profile for Alain DeLaCendres   Email Alain DeLaCendres   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Alain DeLaCendres

Sounds very good Seaangel. What you said pretty much sums up the rest of our debate, we got pretty detailed though...I took the side of humans creating our own ethics, and The Philo took one of a pre-ordained system that we always followed...
You made no offence, I enjoy hearing deversified opinions, and I thank you for replying..You've pretty much summed up the rest of the debate, but if you want to read the rest of it, let me know and I'll either post it or mail it to you...
Thanks again Seeangel.

Tout s'en va, tout passe, l'eau coule, et le couer oublie.
Poet deVine
Member Empyrean
since 05-26-99
Posts 25869
Hurricane Alley

3 posted 07-28-99 09:30 AM       View Profile for Poet deVine   Email Poet deVine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Poet deVine

The company I work for is just now deciding that they need to have 'Rules of Ethics'... businesses nowadays find they must have some guidelines for employees! Mandated humanity?

(by the way, I think it's about time they did this!)
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