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machiner
Member
since 2003-03-13
Posts 67
MA, US

0 posted 2004-02-24 09:03 AM



I find it distressing that the media chooses to downplay the importance of the brutal and selfless sacrifice that was made by Christ Jesus.

OK -- granted, I'm not at a point in my life where religion or devotion is high on my list. Oh, I'm devoted all right, but to my kids and wife. I find religion to be a rather disgusting industry, and I find most of its practitioners to be less than honorable people.

Moreso, I find it distressing when movie critics, and the media in general paint their spin pictures on how gory the movie is. How it is anti-semitic, how it downplays the love and compassion that was The Christ. What these lofty-silver lined folk seem to forget is that the world was (and never forget IS) a brutal place.  There is no substitute for the brutality that people in fear or acting in jealousy can commit to another being.

We watch as our children grow and maybe get taunted at school for having an easily made fun of name...we watch as the guy that got mad at you for cutting him off on the highway takes out his .45 and shoots another dead...and we make jokes.

We take violence for granted with every breath in Am-erica. We send our young soldiers off to other countries to kill its citizens...why...because of fear that they will ultimately attack us. Fear. Greed.

Critics seem to think any movie made about the Christ (King) needs to be happy and la-de-da...as consumers and sheep we like to be spared the truth of things lest it dampen our spirits and/or force us to ponder ourselves. Or, oh the horror, a depth of honesty that leaves a taste in our mouths.

Being raised as a Roman Catholic and witnessing the blatand racism and hate that permeates the faith, I denounced it years ago. I will take no part in any faction that purports itself with violence, fear or hate.  I will ne'er adhere to rules or tenets given to me by shrewd little men with pulpit shielded fear...or by some man that claims a personal link to God.

Give me a break -- but I will also not sit here idle and read cry-baby reviews being written every day.

One critic says "pornographic violence" and condems the film for its depiction of such.
Why should our Am-erican consumers be shielded from the horrors of man? Why should any of us not be able to see the hate tools used on their Lord? Why do we need to be told it's "too violent" or purports anti-semitism? Why must all our depections of the man and his last moments on Earth be toned down? Don't you let your children watch TV? For shame.

Again, let me tell you that I have faith and have witnessed magic and love everywhere, bot none in religion. I wish violence in this world would cease, else we all adhere to our Human nature and rip each other pieces once and for all. Nothing la de da here, and don't tell me how to think.

The Passion of the Christ is no movie for critics or any other folk to write about. No, I haven't seen it, but I remember the Stations of the Cross, and Passion plays of my youth. I remember standing in my church feeling shame for thinking that I had suffered at the hands of my abusive parents. I remember thinking  I have suffered nothing next to this man the Christ.

I would be remiss to claim that no others have suffered, even altruistically, throughout history. It would also be folly to downplay their plight. I would ask critics and other media why it's so important to them that film versions of The Passion need to show restraint. No, no restraint should be shown when depicting the horrors unleashed on a man -- by a jealous tiny little men. Jews, (I'm caucasian, like Benedict Arnold -- you going to blame me for treason? ) Romans, who cares, they were Human. Humans killed the Christ. But I do detest anybody that would try to undo the truth to purport thair aganda. Truth is truth -- we're all numb cowards because we don't like the truth. Ah, well.

Restraint needs to be shown only by our global leaders, not a movie depicting the suffering and sacrafice of a man that has died in order that the Human race be spared eternal damnation.

It says a lot of a man that is willing to do this for the lot that we are.

As a human here among you I am shamed that he, and his father thought us worthy to be saved. I see what we do to each other daily and cringe when the day comes that I set my children out unto the world. I crings as well when I read the words of critics that condemn a small little man for putting to film his faith. You critics do far more damage than any one film.

I also cringe when they attack his faith or try to connect him with the words of his father and his holocaust denial.  What does it matter the words of his father? This is important because...because it can be connected to any message the movie (?) purports? My goodness...to sell a paper?

I would like to repeat that those many critics and media that are vilifing this movie as too much search their hearts and decide that they are in a position to make that assertion. Indeed it was the Jewish high priest that demanded the Christ be killed. Out of jealousy and fear. Out of a selfishness that perpetuates the worst in human, and critics want to shield us from this? Thay decide for us what is too much to bear, or how we should treat or think of others. The media!?

My goodness, what nonesense will we swallow next?

----------------------

I sit here examining my beliefs and faith and keep questioning Christ's decision -- and his destiny decided by his father. Why Humans? Why save us?
And I read about the marketing and all the products for sale based on the movie...and I remember stories of the Christ casting out the gamblers and other greedy fools from the temple. And its high priests questioning this act. Angered by this act...for shame. Making money on another's suffering.

I'm not so sure the Christ would be happy about a man making a movie in such realistic detail about his great love for us rabble and his sacrafice made, then creating retail products to sell to cash in on the hype, or a person's beliefs.

Can you see why I align my faith with no religion. It is a hypocritical and hateful place in which we live. A place filled with greed and lies, and agendas. A place filled with people that would no sooner stab you in the back as offer up their seat to you on the bus.

We live in a place no different from the times of The Christ. We just don't like to look at it...and we don't have to because we can buy blinders and walk through our days being blissfully directed by media.

I would ask the father of the Christ why (s)he(it) insists on saving us. Is it out of vanity of love? (I know what I just wrote -- but a serious God can address serious questions).

I love you is easy enough to live -- until you punch me in the face.
I am not worthy.

See the movie or not. Practice some faith or not, but have the guts to be real and honest. Jesus, The Christ, was indeed treated with the most amazing brutality. Indeed, it was jealousy and fear that condemned him. Why should we turn our heads from that? For the comfort?

You are not worthy.
B. Koneczny
24 February 2004

© Copyright 2004 machiner - All Rights Reserved
Grover
Senior Member
since 2004-01-27
Posts 1967
London, ON, Canada
1 posted 2004-02-24 04:04 PM


You told them... hope you feel better! Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man shall come to the father except by me." You are absolutely correct in not using religion-- which is full of hypocrisy-- in attaining peace with God. Good for you! But I do hope you come to know Jesus Christ as your personal saviour. I'll be praying for you. Grover.
WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245
Illinois
2 posted 2004-02-24 08:32 PM


This is certainly the work of Satan that we see today. We've become a world who don't want to talk about God.  That's the only problem. Because the mention of God makes you realize you're sin and people would rather rip into others than to stop and take a look at themselves.

I commend Mel Gibson for going against the grain and making the movie. I want to see it very badly. I do believe it to be God inspired. But ya know what?  It's us people who have faith in God and what HE can do, what He does, and what HE'S all about that know better than to listen to those 2 bit hypocrites anyhow.  

They weren't any better in Jesus' day.  They actually saw Jesus, watched His miracles and still didn't believe.  That's where we'll be blessed.  

Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. It seems as the wicked get away with things. We have to remember nothing gets past God. Everyone will answer for their actions.

Thanks for sharing your vent!

<*\\\><    
Life may have influenced who we R, but we're responsible for what we become.
I don't question YOUR existance- GOD

LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697

3 posted 2004-02-25 12:53 PM


In the movie, there is a closeup of a hand nailing Christ's hand to the cross? Who's hand is that? Mel Gibson's.

He feels, correctly, that he is responsible for Christ's death. So am I. So are you. So is everyone. Christ is Divine. Nobody can kill Christ.. Christ GAVE HIMSELF.

Christ was Jewish. So were the apostles and most of the early Christians. As Mel Gibson said in his interview : "To be anti semetic is a SIN", and it is.

WhtDove, you are quite right, in my opinion. I feel that this movie will touch millions, and didn't Christ say "If they hated me, they will hate you also?" As Christians, we will be persecuted by the secular world in one way or another for believing what we believe, and a project of this magnitude will stir up that magnitude of trouble.

I believe, though, that the glory of God will shine all the brighter.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

Krishankins
Deputy Moderator 1 Tour
Senior Member
since 2002-06-23
Posts 972
Texas
4 posted 2004-02-25 02:15 PM


Never have I read a piece that was so long, and yet managed to hold me until the very last word. Powerful message! My thought of the critics is "judge not, lest ye be judged". It seems that in the world today everyone wants to change the world's views on just about everything. Can a person not decide for themself if they are offended by the film? Why should my opinion be given by another man. I am of sound mind, and I can chose to love or not love.
This movie is controversial only because the world is full of hypocrites. "well I'M offended by it, and since I'M the critic, I decide that everyone will be offended by it."

OPEN YOUR EYES!! Doesn't anyone watch cable? There is so much violence on network channels now that I thought I was watching HBO or Showtime! Our children see this every day. I would much rather have them see this movie than a movie about drugs and sex. At least this movie is about something worth believing in, Christ. Let people chose for themselves. The critics need to get a real job and stop trying to decide what's good for everyone else. Nobody knows me like I do.

Jesus DIED for everyone. Not just for the Jews, not just for the Catholics, not just for the Christians...EVERYONE!! HE gave Himself.


WhtDove
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-07-22
Posts 9245
Illinois
5 posted 2004-02-25 09:02 PM


Woohoo!!!  To all of you!

<*\\\><    
Life may have influenced who we R, but we're responsible for what we become.
I don't question YOUR existance- GOD

Copperbell
Senior Member
since 2003-11-08
Posts 956

6 posted 2004-02-26 12:01 PM


Machiner - I so appreciated what you have to say - that you took the time to say it. And I respect your honesty. I agree with you and I agree that God is big enough to deal with what you said. Thank you for voicing this - it needs to be said.

May God lead you to people who are not hypocrites, people who truly love Him and love others - because they are out there.  I hope you don't mind me saying that - I just really think you're an awesome person and I have found believers that are kind and gentle - and imperfect, but they care for me and I hope you find that too - along with the revelation of God's presence and love for you.

machiner
Member
since 2003-03-13
Posts 67
MA, US
7 posted 2004-02-26 02:34 PM


I'm a killer
a Dad
a lover
sinner.

I'm a liar-doo gooder-coward-hypocrite
and continual beginner.

my parents are devils, and theirs as well...

but there was a time, once, when I was homeless in Santa Rosa (I was young and strong -- it wasn't so bad, and it was shortlived -- I recommend it). My 'ally' and I frequented NA and AA meetings so we could et/drink...ya, and warm up a little.

Once, while there a man approached me-with a heart miles wide hanging out in front of him. I could see it. He asked me my story and I was too cool, no lies, no pride, just too cool. I had never seen a heart like that before -- remember my parents are devils...perhaps one day I can forgive them.

Locking up our short conversation he invited me to his house the next day. He didn't believe I was no junkie, I wasn't. I was just getting food. Maybe some conversation as well...I think he wanted to sponsor me, I was a polite, kind and gentle killer. People trusted me. People liked to take me "under their wing".

Next day I arrive as he is washing his car -- a 197? VW beetle. He thought I was cool 'cos I knew all his favorite dinosaur rock tunes.
I was real hesitant around the man - I didn't want to spook him, whereas I have a kind disposition, I move like the killer that I am. I make people tremble.

Inside, a little later, he fed me a snack and invited me to take a shower..woohoo!!!!! Hadn't had one of those in a while save a makeshift sponge-bath in the local library.

Wanting to be polite I hurried the shower...ahhhhhhh it felt good...

...and now I'm grossed out by having to put the same nasty clothes back on...ah, well.Suck it up, I thought.

The man watches as I dress and he see's the condition of the socks I was about to put back onto me feet -- oh, he says -- you want to trade socks?

You could've knocked me over with a look. The wind from a wing might have flipped me.

Do I want to trade socks...heavy sigh and a slow "y e a h" escapes me. Yeah, thanks, I'll trade with you. Knowing full well the man wanted to just "kind word" me. He sensed that physically and emotionally I was really ok--I was young and strong -- but here was this man I didn't know from Adam offering up his SOCKS and offering to take mine. Black, wholly, smelly--just gross socks. Nasty socks.

Now, this man could've offered me his house -- a zillion dollars -- I would've declined. Those things weren't important to me. Just the socks.

Out of 2 or 5 altruistic gestures folks have made toward me in my 36 years, this one is the most profound. I told my friend this story 3 weeks ago (now you and he knows) because he couldn't understand why I do so much work for free. All my friends (even my wife - partner) think I'm a fool for giving away countless hours in education, services, etc. to anyone that will ask. I used this story to show that I have no choice...I can never ever repay the amazing kindness and just "knowing how to be" that this man from many years ago showed me. I can only hope that once or twice that I can offer up to someone else the same. That in their heart they can know that they're NOT alone. That there is some damned hope right there...just ask...or even take.

True, I didn't ask this man for help. Naw, that's BS -- I begged this man for help. I just didn't use my mouth.

I'm crying like a baby now, so I don't even know how this will read. My eyes are too full to proof what I've written, my fingers are trembling from the power this memory still has, and how I am because of it. The point is...I wasn't really suffering much when this guy lent a hand...a sock. I was in a crappy way-- sure, and I'd had my share of pain...I may have ultimately made lousy decisions, maybe -- it's not farfetched to think so. But I was...fine?

That man Jesus suffered more than I ever have. He suffered more in 13 seconds than I will ever --not just physically, but yeah don't forget that part. He suffered to give me socks, and put me where I need to be. He suffered so you can make your own choices. He doesn't force you to choose his side, he just made it ok. I am not worthy.

This man from my past was Jesus to me. Full of giving and generosity...and don't forget that heart I mentioned. He asked nothing, he only offered to trade because he may have sensed that I would've refused the socks if they were just offered up.

So here I am in the world -- fully everything I said I am -- and I'm trying to raise kids and be a good partner, and help and teach and play ...all the neighborhood kids love me, I'm the "fun" dad. The adults think I'm silly and not to be taken seriously unless they address areas of my expertise (which, by the way don't exist). True, some of them reflect on themselves when I am around. I've seen it.

Watching TV last night and seeing the shows in a new light, annoyed at their shallowness, I was left thinking -- perhaps Christianity is shunned or scourned because it's just too much. Just too much to live up to.

Parents work 300 hours a week now -- they say it's to get by, but they're both driving a Lincoln Navigator and sending their kids to private schools, and hurrying by the less fortunate.

Elected officials have amazing health care in Am-erica while their constituants go without.

The Pope lives in spendor and clergy drive Cadillacs -- and some of their parishoners can't afford shoes for their kids.

It's 2004. Something must be done.

I do apologise for there being no point to this -- I am thinking out loud, putting my heart out where it belongs. Rummaging through my heart and trying to make more sense of what I am all about. I am using this thread to find me again. I don't expect a response, pro or con, I don't expect anything. This is for me. Maybe later it can be for someone else. When I know more of what I am and where I fit in.

Thank you for allowing me this space.
Thank you.

I am machiner. By default and with good reason...and I'm trying to live up to that.


Brian


jellybeans
Member Elite
since 2000-10-13
Posts 2298

8 posted 2004-02-26 02:49 PM


your words are honest, looking honestly at the pain and the badness of the world is not easy...you have touched more than just the pain in your life with this, you have touched mine too....
I don't know how to say what this makes me feel, it feels like you have a conclusion to come to, but haven't quite gotten there...I know I could be wrong, but I feel you 'reaching'...
a caring poet filled board is a good place to do so.....
hope your fingers find what you are looking for....
I know that pain that makes you shake to remember...a lot of us do...sending a prayer and a hug, from jellybeans

Poet deVine
Administrator
Member Seraphic
since 1999-05-26
Posts 22612
Hurricane Alley
9 posted 2004-02-26 06:47 PM


Brian, your words touched me. I too am crying as I struggle to see what I'm writing. It's not often someone is graced by such goodness - you met a true man of God. Who cares what color he is, what religion he is, what political affiliation he has, how much money he makes....his heart is gold. I'm glad you shared your story with us. I wish every member here would stop in and read your words.

Thank you Brian for touching my life.

machiner
Member
since 2003-03-13
Posts 67
MA, US
10 posted 2004-02-27 12:12 PM


yes I am. Reaching.
======================

I read in the news yesterday about a baby found - broken... a child. Found in a (dumpster?)

It was the parents.

As breaking a body goes, there is noise involved...neighbors did nothing.


Descartes used to hang live (dying), skinned dogs on the door to his cave.  He said something about animals being too stupid to register, thus complain about pain.  Their screams were just instinctual nervous responses, he said.

People say there is beauty in the purity of a thing. Even evil. I must agree, only because I forever seek purity -- elusive and strange.

Is one purity "better" than another. Is it beautiful in the seeking? I'm chaotic good - can I find beauty in chaos?  Am I beautiful enough to see purity? Am I pure enough to recognize evil?

Once, a beautiful young spirit used to call me "Big Brother". He was happy and kind.  He made it to 21 before a drunk ran him over.

==========================

I'm angry with you for sending me conflicting messages, and I don't appreciate your introducing Jesus into the mix. I never asked you for this and I refuse to feel any guilt...and I'm getting pretty tired of the shame.  ya ya, I heard it all before -- and I feel it when you grab me. You've a big hand...
I'm not saying I'm not happy you're there...and next to me as I type. "Dood!"

But I'm more than a little tangled here. People count on me -- just how strong do you think I am? EY!?

It's just the one thing, really - that showstopper you and your boy pulled back there with Pilate...and those jealous Rabbi's...you took a perfectly natural "I can't freakin' stand you" and you turned it into a -- hey, that's cool...but I love you.

and your boy goes for this, and does his part.

I'm not ok with not being able to thank either on of you.

This shroud, this monkey I can't shake.

have you any idea how important it is for me to thank you...and Jesus.

It's not enough for me to emulate you, walk your path. It's all too easy, taking one for the team is no sweat...well, you know what I mean...and I know you don't hold anything over on me. I know it's cool with you, you even gave me rhythm, and a solid heart...and my kids dig me...my partner, too. Man, I've got good lovin' at home.

more I write, more I know.  


So now I'm the guy in the iddle of the field -- I know each side, and what's in the middle. I know the field, man but can I play all the positions? When I get up to bat will I whiff -- will the sun blind my catches?

============================

my son humbly bows his head approaching his big sister so he can apologise. She hugs him tight and together, in the moment, nothing else on Earth exists.


I am so not worthy.

LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697

11 posted 2004-02-27 12:26 PM


What beautiful thoughts... what a wonderful way to express what Jesus did for us. I always stumble all over my words and mess up but you do such a good job. I want to try to share something with you though. It's very personal... but I want to say it.. bear with me.

I know Jesus personally. He knows me to my inner core. I think that we all have some kind of trial by fire. I remember when I hit rock bottom... most people don't know this about me. I won't say exactly what I did, but I'll say it has to do with depression. I was 16-17 years old and tired of being alive. I was basically being a brat, but I was in a lot of emotional and spiritual pain. The nights were the worst. But it was in the dark time when I found Jesus in a way I never knew possible. Before I had believed, but it was a sort of detatched, indifferent belief. But it was through this darkest time of my life that I could finally see what He was and what He's done for me. He died so that He could be there for me, in spite of the sin.. for through His death, He conquered sin, hell and death. When He died, the veil that kept His Spirit from mankind was torn in half, so nothing could seperate us from Him anymore. I had sinned against Him horribly, but He still was there... whispering to me...

God, I can't even express it.. every word, every song I sing I try to do it but I can't.

I heard that Mel Gibson had a similar struggle with depression before he was moved to make this movie. I feel like he is trying to do the same: to show what Jesus did for him and for all of us. I wonder if he feels inadiquate as well...

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

machiner
Member
since 2003-03-13
Posts 67
MA, US
12 posted 2004-02-27 12:56 PM


Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me

I once was lost, but now I'm found
was blind but now I see.

===========
Thank you for finding the courage to stay --
Thank you for sharing, and helping me along.

puddles form quietly...


machiner  


BloomingRose
Member Elite
since 2000-08-09
Posts 3092
Florida
13 posted 2004-02-27 09:03 AM


As a human here among you I am shamed that he, and his father thought us worthy to be saved.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That my friend is the mystery of unconditional love that only he can give.
Religion is questionable, but we can have a relationship with Jesus. That relationship is my link to God, and I claim it in humble grace. Not because I deserve it, but because he freely gives it. There is nothing you and I, or anyone could ever do to be worthy of this precious gift, but thank God he loves us so much.
Thank you for writing what you did. It's very much sad food for thought.

Deb

machiner
Member
since 2003-03-13
Posts 67
MA, US
14 posted 2004-02-27 09:50 AM


Thank you all for emails and responses. For your support and encouragement.

I am finding my way. Mulling it over, feeling influence and finding calm.

Strip everything away. Cars, money, homes, clothing. Your iPod. Take away your security, your friends, family. Stand alone at the edge of time and look...I don't know what I see either. But I'm looking, still.

I am sure I'll be wrong more times than right. I'll fall and bruise. Bruises heal, and wrongs learn.
If I can maintain truth, and see the forest through the trees. If you come with me. If I go alone.

machiner

LoveBug
Deputy Moderator 5 Tours
Moderator
Member Elite
since 2000-01-08
Posts 4697

15 posted 2004-02-27 04:14 PM


I just got back from the theatre... I don't think I'll ever be quite the same. It's a beautiful, painful, realistic view of the pain He went through to save us and to be with us. I recommend it to everybody.

Oh, make me Thine forever
And should I fainting be
Lord, let me never ever
Outlive my love for Thee

machiner
Member
since 2003-03-13
Posts 67
MA, US
16 posted 2004-02-27 11:13 PM


I'll probably pass on seeing the movie.
For me, and what snapped me to -- it was enough reading about it for 2 months.

both sides...so I came here.

not sure why, I don't come here much and my poetry sucks.

but it was the first and only place I thought of.

guy I knew when I was 14 -- happened to be a priest -- I called him on Thursday.

man, fanciful ease flowed outta me until I picked my tongue up from off of the floor.
He had no chance. We meet again on Monday.

He saved me once already.

Copperbell
Senior Member
since 2003-11-08
Posts 956

17 posted 2004-02-28 02:53 AM


I cannot read this and be silent. And I cannot pray in silence.

Father God,
You are the Mighty King,
the One who sees each one of us,
the One who fills our flesh with breath,
the One who created friendship and children and family.

Because I know You hear our prayers, our whispers, our pains; because I know that it is You who reveals Yourself to us, and it is You who shows us what sin is, what Your sacrifice really was.  I just want to say thank You.  Thank You. I know that I am not worthy.  Thank You.

May the earth ring of Your praises, may it well up in the hearts of Your children, of Your creation that they may lift up their heads and overflow with joy in their hearts at the beauty of the King.

Just something I want to share...Once when I was taking communion, and remembering the torture of Jesus, a picture flooded my mind, that I believe was from Him.  It was me and Him - and in the same way that a parent would swing their child around in a circle above their heads (holding under the armpits) was He swinging me and communicating to me that He was overjoyed to bring me into His kingdom, that that was His reason for what He did on the cross; what He purposely did for me, and each one of us.

veniceflorida
Junior Member
since 2007-10-03
Posts 22
Florida
18 posted 2007-10-04 07:45 AM


Brian:  Thanks for sharing ... I hope you feel better.  I wonder what you are doing today?
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