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Age Rage and the Innocence of Muslims

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moonbeam
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0 posted 09-17-2012 10:14 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

13 years ago when I first joined these forums I would generally wake up with a song on my lips and spring in my heart, world events usually couldn’t dent my bonhomie.  Nowadays, there is barely a morning passes when some item of news doesn’t invite the gnashing of teeth and the four letter word.  

I ask myself: is it me? Is it perhaps age, sciatica, the burden of history, heightened perception and sensitivity, or a conscience absent from youth?

Or is it merely that irritating and disturbing news is more pervasive and invasive, easily disseminated and more graphically presented?  

Or, more sinisterly, is it that the world has changed for the worst and that there is more to be angry at than ever before?

.......

Three issues fuel my ire at present; one longstanding and two fairly recent.  My annoyance over these issues, I now realise, is exacerbated by my perception that they would not be issues at all were it not for two factors:

1 There are some very naive and/or stupid people in positions of power.

2  There are many people who don’t have the education and breadth of experience not to be manipulated, using mainly fear and/or money, by those who are powerful, cynical, greedy or crazy. (If that sounds elitist Ron – tough 

My three current bęte noirs are:


William and Kate

I mean how naive and stupid can you be?

I’m not a great fan of the French at any time and I don’t condone or excuse what this editor has done, but if you are the Duchess of Cambridge you don’t expose your mammary glands to fresh air in this age of satellites and long lenses unless you want images of them on YouTube in Botswana within 10 minutes of said exposure.

Today I’m ashamed to be a potential subject of a prince and princess who are more stupid than my dead cat. (Sorry George, you weren’t stupid at all sweetie xx).


Sam Bacile

I have no idea whether this ‘man’ is mad, bad, fanatical or mischievous.  What I am sure he is not, is stupid.  This was a quite deliberate act to stir up an uneducated mass of people – the vast majority of them totally innocent – by using their prejudices as tinder and their beliefs as fuel.

Whether any lasting damage has been done to the revolution, I guess we will find out in due course.  It sure as heck hasn’t helped though, and certain educated and intelligent people in the West bear a large slice of responsibility imo for fomenting a climate in which guys making movies like this think they are ‘being clever’.


Wind factories/farms

Wind turbines.  Politically, economically and socially one of the greatest follies of the last 25 years.  It’s what they represent that really gets to me:  criminal (imo) greed, political expediency and a mass manipulation of a gullible population using a combination of fear about the future of the planet and virtually unlimited public funds.  

The thought of the wasted opportunities while money is squandered on these darlings of the ‘green revolution’ is heartbreaking.

........

Now I feel better.
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1 posted 09-17-2012 12:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Stupidity is not the absence
but the neglect of intelligence.
For various reasons people choose
to be stupid.  It’s been a dominant
feature in history.   All human progress
has been in struggle against it; a struggle
which is continuous and in no way assured
of ongoing or ultimate success.    


.
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2 posted 09-17-2012 12:53 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
What I am sure he is not, is stupid.  This was a quite deliberate act to stir up an uneducated mass of people – the vast majority of them totally innocent – by using their prejudices as tinder and their beliefs as fuel.


That's what makes it more stupid though, in my opinion.  Unintentionally offending someone is one thing, but going out of one's way to stir up certain mobs you know will be offended and resort to extremism and violence in retaliation, quite another thing. It also stirs up another mass of uneducated reaction, because when these retaliating mobs rise up, they are presented in the media as the "face" of the Arab and Muslim world, and the more they are presented that way, the more people begin generalizing about Arabs and Muslims in terms of these isolated mobs of extremists that are repeatedly shown in the media.  It is a form of extremism in itself, and should be condemned just as other forms of extremism.  
 
moonbeam
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3 posted 09-17-2012 01:10 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Huan

If you are able to ‘assume’ stupidity then you are, ipso facto, not stupid.

But that’s not what you meant I think.  I broadly agree that neglect/laziness is a precursor to stupidity, as for instance when an intelligent person clings to a political or religious dogma, due to, say, a particular upbringing or piece of compelling propaganda, and shuts down all exploration of alternative views.  This inevitably leads to an embracing of the most outrageously improbable data in support of that dogmatically held position, ergo – stupidity.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word at all.  I think what I really mean is “easily open to manipulation by others” or, in a different context, “naive”.
moonbeam
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4 posted 09-17-2012 01:24 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ess

Yes, I agree absolutely about the effect of his actions.  However the very act of making the movie means the maker is fairly intelligent, that rules out innate stupidity, or a stupidly low IQ to put it another way.  It leaves the possibility that the maker himself is stupid by neglect, i.e. dogmatically bound:  himself manipulated by circumstance, upbringing, peers, propaganda etc etc.   I suppose it’s a possibility, maybe even a probability, given all the vitriol that has been circulating in the US recently.   Calling him stupid though, to me, seems to let him off the hook somewhat; seems to make him somewhat less responsible for his actions.  Maybe even that’s reasonable though, come to think of it.  Perhaps this just the natural result of rampant nationalism and religious fanaticism of any colour.  Humm.  

(Sorry, forgotten how to do the quotation thing).
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5 posted 09-17-2012 02:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting thread. You had me at the beginning, moonbeam, with your thoughts about the daily news and the constant barrage of items that can wipe the smile off any optomist's face.....but then you go into those topics, led by Kathleen's breasts??? With everything going on in these days, the riots, the murders, the insurrections...Kate's breasts headlines you topics? I can imagine that, in a monarchy, it could carry some newsworthy coverage but I doubt that it gets more than a ho-hum from the rest of the world.

As far as the movie is concerned, it is a foregone conclusion now that it had nothing to do with this weeks' events. Even Libya has come out and proclaimed that it was a preplanned attack based on the timing, organization, and weapons used. Multiple embassies hit on the anniversary of 9/11 in a coordinated attack and simpletons proclaim that it was because of a movie few people have even seen?

Now, if you want to talk about boobs, then your comment about stupid people being in power is right on. No one knows that better than us.
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6 posted 09-17-2012 04:33 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Hi Mike

“Kathleen” !!??  Well that says it all really doesn’t it.  And here was I thinking that the world hung on the do’ings of our prince and princess.  Silly me, I needn’t have worried after all.

Seriously though it’s not about her breasts, or even her ass come to that; is it?  Call me old-fashioned but what really, gets on my, uh, mammary glands about this is the way these two have let down the side.  For once I really thought that there might be some prominent quasi celebrity public figures that we could actually respect for their grace, decorousness, intelligence and savviness.  Now I learn that they are just as dumb as all the rest.

Bad enough to disrobe in the open air, but then to go and start criminal (and civil) proceedings, thereby ensuring that the debacle will remain in the media spotlight on and off for at least a year, was just, well, really really stupid.

And, ok, beside the events in Syria you may not think this is important, but these guys are what give quite a few people in the world (commonwealth) hope that there is something more than dry boring politics, tacky sleazy celebrity or greedy grasping commerce to public life and power.  This was the fairytale couple who proved that people can be beautiful and gracious and charitable and just plain good, without wanting something in return.  Now they look like mugs who have had one put over them by, of all people, the French!  It’s sad.

The movie?  I think you are premature Mike.  It’s undoubtedly caused a major upset, whether or not it was the direct cause of deaths.  But once again, the movie isn’t the point.  The movie is simply a small bit of leakage from a kettle that has been boiling away now for a long time.  There are some terrible things that go on in the name of Muhammed; there are some terrible things that would go on in the name of Jesus if democracy and our legal system didn’t curtail them effectively.  

Extreme Christian views have the potential to be equally as destabilising and barbaric as extreme Islamic views, it’s just that the West is a couple of hundred years further down the line in learning to render them impotent with a mixture of education, enlightenment and social and political reform.  The Middle East is edging towards enlightenment, and, as usual, it’s a painful messy process that 200 years ago would have taken many decades.  The West has the opportunity to assist the process so that it takes only a few years (remember Asimov and “Foundation”?), but we sure as heck aren’t going to help if we can’t keep our own right wing evangelical religious maniacs under control.  

Given that you mention relative importance, it’s interesting that you don’t even touch on the end of the world in your reply.
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7 posted 09-17-2012 10:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry...I must have missed any reference to the end of the world.

It's interesting that, in a thread that has references to the atrocities happening now, you know, the rape, sodomism and murder of the ambassador and stuff like that, the phrase "right wing evangelical religious maniacs" shows up...i'm seeing maniacs on the tv screen right now and I don't recognize any of them as being right wingers or even evangelical, for that matter.
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8 posted 09-17-2012 11:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Susan Rice said the attack on the American consulate in Benghazi last week was not premeditated, directly contradicting top Libyan officials who say the attack was planned in advance.
“Our current best assessment, based on the information that we have at present, is that, in fact, what this began as, it was a spontaneous – not a premeditated – response to what had transpired in Cairo,” Rice told me this morning on “This Week.” http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/ambassador-susan-rice-libya-attack-not-premeditated/


Libya’s president does not agree with the White House media line. "Of course. No doubt. The whole operation was prepared and it took advantage of the movie as justification. If you take into account the weapons used, like RPGs and other heavy weapons, it proves that it was pre-planned. It's a dirty act of revenge, and has nothing to do with religion," Libyan Interim President Al-Magariaf told Al Jazeera. http://www.examiner.com/article/white-house-version-of-libya-embassy-attack-rebuked


There is a lot of attempted damage control going on over this. Obama, of course, doesn't want anything that could indicate failed middle east policies had anything to do with the attacks and is also hoping no one will ask why extra security measures were set up for all embassies in the middle east on the anniversary of 9/11. He needn't worry....his media will not ask.
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9 posted 09-18-2012 05:37 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Mike

I was just hoping that windfarms might prompt a climate change debate, is all.

On atrocities and religious extremism, well, imagine two brothers separated at birth to live with different families.  One, resource poor and lazy, raises their boy to be uneducated, with polarised views, and an inability to reason objectively.  The other sends their son to the best schools, he experiences the world with frequent travel and has every opportunity to take a balanced view of life.  Yet, somewhat smug in his knowledge, wealth and power, he cannot resist being censorious of his less fortunate brother and his narrow vision and prejudice.

Most of the time he hides it, but occasionally the nastier side of him prompts him to poke his lesser bretheren with a subtle jibe or not so subtle sarcasm.  When his brother reacts in the only way he knows with violence and extreme anger, the wealthy educated sibling throws up his hands in horror and cries, “Oh my! Rape, sodomism and murder, get thee behind me Satan!”

Of course I have no sympathy for people who allow their anger to spill into physical violence against innocents, but I have even less sympathy and respect for people who fail to behave with the responsibility that comes with power, education and knowledge.
As Tony Blair said in an interview yesterday morning with BBC’s Today programme, we should be doing all we can to work with and support the moderate people of the Middle East to overcome the prejudice that exists there.  What we should not be doing is knowingly feed that prejudice with our own self satisfied (and incorrect) pre-conceptions about a whole people and religion.

As for your comments about the cause of the riots and the deaths and the pre-planning aspect, like I say, I think it’s a little premature to make final judgements, if indeed such judgemenats matter at all.  The lesson here imo is simply that certain elements of western, mainly American, society need to grow up and accept that theirs is not the only cosmic view.  Until they do, our ability to drive the Middle East safely through its cultural revolution without too much bloodshed will be seriously hampered.

As for your comments about Obama, well, all I can say is, like Bush, he is doing his best in the Middle East.  I’ve always thought that Bush made the right decision to go into Iraq.  I think Obama similarly did a pretty good job in Libya, and to be frank, as Blair said yesterday, a little more direct intervention in Syria would be ok with me right now.  Still, it’s a close call, and I don’t blame Obama for not risking it before the election.  After all, if the twit Romney gets in, god knows what a mess he would make of it .

I think we have to just accept that the Middle East is in a terrible state, and will be for a while, just as France and Russia were during their periods of change.  No leader is ever going to get it entirely right, because there probably isn’t a “right” and we don’t have a Hari Seldon to help us along.  
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10 posted 09-18-2012 07:57 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The lesson here imo is simply that certain elements of western, mainly American, society need to grow up and accept that theirs is not the only cosmic view.

Sorry, sir, I see no such lesson in this case at all. I see no such insistence one one cosmic view. I do see terrorist groups using the 9/11 anniversary to attack and kill Americans. That is the cosmic view that was on my screen. The fact that they hate Americans is nothing new. The fact that they have tried to kill us for the past quarter century is nothing new, either. We do not pray to Allah. We DO support Israel. Unless we are all willing to bow to Allah and/or turn our backs on Israel, their cosmic view of us will not change, I don't believe.

In my opinion, more than the movie creating the scenario of destruction, it was Obama spiking his football, the one thing he said was not appropriate and what he would not do.

Instead we had a week of football spiking during the DNC, proclaiming how Obama should be re-elected because he is the one that "got" Bin Laden. As Biden and others put it, "Bin Laden is dead and GM is alive." Muslims got to see a week of that football spiking. Is is any conicidence that the attackers were chanting "We are all Osama!!"? That, to me, would cause more of a reason to strike on the anniversary of Bin Laden's achievement than a 10 minute amateurish movie preview on youtube posted back in June that only a handful of people had seen.
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11 posted 09-18-2012 08:57 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

[Edit - Personal remarks removed. Ron (Sigh)]

Ditto on the sigh (especially as I didn't copy my post) and apologies, I'm out of practice.  I'll start over.

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12 posted 09-18-2012 03:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
I’ve always thought that Bush made the right decision to go into Iraq.

moonbeam
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13 posted 09-18-2012 04:31 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Lol Ess.

'fraid so.  I do think that military intervention in Iraq was correct.  The reasons for going in were probably based upon lies or misinformation, and the execution of the campaign was somewhat bungled no doubt (but then what military campaign is not a mess?), and the post conflict planning was abysmal.  Yet despite this I still think that the removal of a tyrannical dynasty was worth it.

Not that Obama wouldn't have done it a whole lot better of course.  HIS intervention would no doubt have taken out the main Saddam players in surgical strikes by the Seals and the SAS, and the whole thing would have been done and dusted overnight

That's why he is ahead in all the key States no doubt.
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14 posted 09-18-2012 04:54 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

[Allergy information – the following product is intended to be insult free, but was manufactured in a brain that incorporates insults into some of its products.  It is accordingly conceivable that traces of insult may be found in this otherwise wholesome confectionary.  My sincere apologies in advance if small pieces stick in your throat.]


With great respect Sir I think you are missing the point I was trying to make, probably because I failed to make it clearly enough.  I really don’t think you are correct to say that unless you bow to Allah their view of you will not change.  The distinction has to be made between the terrorists you refer to who are basically people who like killing other people, and who are in a tiny tiny minority, and the vast majority who are misguided or misinformed or simply determined to be heard.  

I was in Manchester and Warrington when the IRA detonated their bombs, and in Canary Wharf the windows were blown out of my office. I was all too quick to condemn “Catholics” or “The Irish” or even “The IRA” – that was wrong.  Years later the Adams and McGuinness are incorporated into civilised government and the vast majority of Irish Catholics and Protestants are healing their wounds.  I and a lot of other English people and politicians were part of the problem.  In failing to engage with people who did not actually want to kill to get their own way, and in tarring a whole race with the same damning brush, we were actually feeding the killers with the ammunition to persuade people to support their hatred.

With the greatest respect and without meaning ANY personal attack on you personally whatever Mike, I would gently and respectfully and humbly suggest that you (as in the collective ‘you’) may be in danger of doing the same to Islam if you tar them as “terrorists”, and you (collective you, not personal you) may then become part of the problem.  [Ron – I have done my best to frame this in a way which does not come over as a personal attack, if you still have a problem with it, please feel free to delete and I will try again].

Again with the greatest respect, I have no idea what you mean by “Obama has spiked his football”.  Can I risk a gentle joke? and ask for English English rather than US English   ?  [Same again Ron].

In any event like I said before, and again not meaning any personal comment or attack, I think you are a little premature in suggesting that the video was inconsequential (I hope I am ok saying that to you, I mean no offence or attack on you).  This morning the CS Monitor reported as follows:

Kabul, Afghanistan

Female suicide bomber kills foreigners in Kabul in response to video

A suicide bomber targeting a microbus in Kabul on Tuesday left at least 12 people dead, eight of which are believed to be foreign civilians predominately from South Africa.

A female bomber detonated a car packed with explosives near the microbus at approximately 6:30 a.m. as the victims were reportedly going to the airport. The bomb also caused significant damage to a nearby wedding hall.

Hezb-e-Islami, an insurgent group that has traditionally been among the more moderate organizations in Afghanistan, claimed responsibility for the attack, saying it was in retaliation for the anti-Islam film trailer on YouTube that sparked demonstrations throughout the Middle East and Africa.

“In the operation in reaction to the disrespect of the holy prophet, 16 American spies were killed today in Kabul,” said the group in an official statement. Insurgent groups often overestimate the death toll of such attacks and misstate the nationality and profession of those killed.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Sout h-Central/2012/0918/Female-suicide-bomber-kills-foreigners-in-Kabul-in-response-to-video-video
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15 posted 09-18-2012 11:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have done my best to frame this in a way which does not come over as a personal attack, if you still have a problem with it, please feel free to delete and I will try again].

Just to set the record straight, sir, the word "still" is out of place. I never saw your original post which was removed, so I had not had a problem with whatever you said in the first place. That was Ron's call, not mine.  My skin is not that thin that I would complain.

The distinction has to be made between the terrorists you refer to who are basically people who like killing other people, and who are in a tiny tiny minority, and the vast majority who are misguided or misinformed or simply determined to be heard.  

I agree the terrorists are the tiny minority but they are the ones who rule. The taliban was a tiny majority of Afghanistan and yet they ruled the country with an iron fist. In Africa, the ones who massacre are also in the minority and yet thay are the ones who rule, also. Majority and minority ae redefined by those who have the weapons and the power. Who is more at fault...those who rule or those who allow thmselves to be ruled?

I have no idea what you mean by  Obama has spiked his football

My mistake. I thought perhaps you were familiar with the phrase and Obama's use of it. Spiking the football is what football players do after scoring a touchdown, where they take the ball and throw it hard into the ground in an act of  conquest. It is also a bit of an insult toward the team scored upon, sort of like a "take that, losers!!" Many times it is penalized for excessive celebration and unnecessary celebration. WHen Obama was interviewed after the death of Bin Laden, he sopke of how it was simply something that had to be done and not something to celebrate by "spiking the football", or using it as an act of celebration or defiance. However during the Democratic National convention, since in reality, democrats were desperate to come up with SOMETHING to justify Obama's first term, the killing of Osama became a major talking point. The chant was "Osama is dead and General Motors is alive", referring to the bailout of GM. In other words, they decided to "spike the football", the one thing Obama had said would have been in bad taste.  The terrrorists chanted "We are all Osama!" while atacking the embassies. It is my supposition that the chant was in response to the bragging of the Democrats, Like an "Oh, yeah???" thrown back in their faces.

I think you are a little premature in suggesting that the video was inconsequential

Looks like the White House is having second thoughts on their insistence that it was all because of the video and nothing to do with Obama's middle east policies.........

The White House on Tuesday explicitly left open the possibility that last week's dramatic attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, which left four Americans including U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens dead, was a preplanned attack.
Press secretary Jay Carney suggested the assault could have been the work of an armed group looking to "take advantage" of unrest he blamed on an anti-Islam video available online.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/white-house-libya-attack-may-pre-planned-175524798--election.html

Feel free to say anything you like, moonbeam. I have no objections and am not easily offended.  It is all Ron's call as to what he will accept or not.
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16 posted 09-19-2012 03:13 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Another addition to idiocy:
   http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/09/french-mag-to-publish-cartoons-of-prophet-mohammed/

quote:
The magazine “Charlie Hebdo” has confirmed that it will publish the cartoons, but has not revealed what they will depict. French newspaper “Le Monde” reports that some of the cartoons show the prophet in “particularly explicit poses,” without providing any further detail.


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17 posted 09-19-2012 03:52 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Another addition to idiocy


Sigh - It's a pity schoolboy insults can't be confined to "the Alley" where people generally don't get killed because of such stupidity.

[This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-19-2012 05:00 AM).]

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18 posted 09-19-2012 05:49 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
I have done my best to frame this in a way which does not come over as a personal attack, if you still have a problem with it, please feel free to delete and I will try again].

Just to set the record straight, sir, the word "still" is out of place. I never saw your original post which was removed, so I had not had a problem with whatever you said in the first place. That was Ron's call, not mine.  My skin is not that thin that I would complain.

Hi Mike

No the word “still” wasn’t out of place.  If you look again, my comment was addressed specifically to Ron not to you.  I am well aware of your tolerance threshold and I thank you for it.  Actually, it’s a shame you didn’t see my original post, as I feel fairly sure that you wouldn’t have viewed it as in any way personally disparaging; but like you say, it’s Ron’s call.

quote:
The distinction has to be made between the terrorists you refer to who are basically people who like killing other people, and who are in a tiny tiny minority, and the vast majority who are misguided or misinformed or simply determined to be heard.  

I agree the terrorists are the tiny minority but they are the ones who rule. The taliban was a tiny majority of Afghanistan and yet they ruled the country with an iron fist. In Africa, the ones who massacre are also in the minority and yet thay are the ones who rule, also. Majority and minority ae redefined by those who have the weapons and the power. Who is more at fault...those who rule or those who allow thmselves to be ruled?

You make some very interesting points here Mike.  Firstly I think that we’d have to be careful about what you mean by “rule”.  I think that what you are getting at is that either killers rule directly and personally, as with, say a South American drug cartel or by proxy, as, to some extent the IRA did in Ireland.  There are also questions of complexity and scale, and whether the “rule” is simply by stick, or whether carrot is involved as well.  So it’s not simple.  But you might say that at one end of the scale you have a drug baron who points a gun at his employees while also making them wealthy with dirty money.  In that example sure, I agree with your implication that the employees are nearly as culpable as the employer, although the pointing gun lets them off the hook a little I guess.  At the other extreme, you have the position the Southern Irish were in, and then in the middle such situations as Saddam in Iraq, and, as you say, the Taliban.

In those scenarios, partly because of the scale and the complexity I think it’s dangerous to assume that there is “fault” on the side of the majority.  Sure, you could say that the whole German people were partly at fault for allowing themselves to be brainwashed, bullied, intimidated, enticed and carried away on a wave of mass hysteria – but the way to combat that would have been either to remove the elements which were doing the enticing and manipulating (the real evil) and/or to counter the effect of it with truth and reconciliation.  What is never helpful in such situations is to make the patently false assumption that the masses are all intrinsically bad too, and then to play right into the hands of the evil that manipulates them by making frivolous videos about their beliefs.

That’s why I say Bush was right.  He didn’t take the view that the masses in Iraq were at fault or wrong – he dived straight in (albeit in a more gung ho way than might have been advisable) and chopped off the head.

Same in Afghanistan, the West hasn’t stood on the sidelines and moaned and whinged about the nasty beliefs of the Afghan people, we have tried to combat the real evil.

Bush and Blair were right about “hearts and minds” – and trashing a whole belief system simply because a small minority is trying to impose it upon you is wrong.  (Ok, it just occurs to me that that is exactly what we should have done about Nazi beliefs; I haven’t got time to explore that right now though).

“Spiking the football” – got it Mike, see what you mean.  I think we all know that anything goes in elections!  I don’t doubt that you are right about some of what Obama and his team are doing, I’d do the same; I’m sure the Republicans do too.  Gets a bit tiresome, but I guess it’s inevitable given our adversarial democratic system.  Thanks for taking the time to explain.

I’m following the progress of the video fallout with interest.  There’s a lot of stuff flying around right now, so I’ll just wait a little longer before commenting.

On a more serious note, the Royal family seem to have competent lawyers, they actually seem to be making some progress in the great Cover Up Kate Campaign.  

Amazingly, it looks like some of the pictures may never see the sunlight and lose their tan lines.
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19 posted 09-19-2012 05:52 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Oh, and another thing Mike:

    

He had reached this depth of self torment and was preparing to go deeper, when a [bread] roll, propelled by a vigorous young hand, struck him smartly on the left ear.  He leaped convulsively and for an instant forgot all about the girl.  In similar circumstances, Dante would have forgotten Beatrice.  The roll was one of those hard jagged rolls and the force of its impact was not unlike that of a direct hit from a shell.  He looked up wrathfully.  And, as he did so, a child at the other end of the table, smirking apologetically, applied the last straw.

“Oh, sorry, sir!” cried this babe and suckling.  “Frightfully sorry, sir.  Most awfully sorry sir.  I was aiming at young Dogsbody.”

Berry contrived to smirk back, but with an infinite wryness, for his heart was as lead.  This, he felt, was the end.

The young germ had called him “Sir”.

“Sir!”

It was what he himself called T. Paterson Frisby, that genuine museum piece who could not be a day less than fifty.

.......

From “Big Money” by P G Wodehouse
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20 posted 09-19-2012 08:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

i'll respond to your first post later, moonbeam, but for now I thank you for the Wodehouse piece. He is, without a doubt, one the most gifted writers ever to grace the planet.

I was a the movie theater the other day, without looking, inadvertently bumped into a lady in her mid-twenties, I would guess. I apologized and she smile and said, "That's ok, sir."

I know what Wodehouse meant
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21 posted 09-19-2012 08:55 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“In its own ugly way, this Newsweek [sic] cover is almost as inflammatory as the Muhammad video itself,”

http://freebeacon.com/raging-at-muslim-rage/


Is that so?


.
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22 posted 09-19-2012 10:05 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Isn't he hilarious Mike!     I totally agree with you about Wodehouse.  I've been listening to audiotapes of his books and short stories for years now, and they always lighten my mood and make me marvel at both his humour, use of language and insight into character.  

This morning while trying (vainly) online to find a site where I could copy and paste that snippet from Big Money I came across a marvellous facimile of an American newspaper from 1831 (where Big Money was serialised).  

This link might work:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19311118&id=HBlWAAAAIBA   J&sjid=f-MDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3341,465192

Absolutely fascinating reading.  Another time, another age, seemingly so much more innocent and simple than today.

Anyway, I guess that when I am your age I shall be quite happy for ladies to call me "Sir"          ... I have at least 50 years to go yet. :P


.......
And back on topic.  This link, or rather the picture, says it all really:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/201   2/0918/Anti-Muslim-video-What-Muslim-teachings-say-about-retribution-for-blasphemy


Anti-Muslim video: What Muslim teachings say about retribution for blasphemy

......
PS Are females in their mid-twenties still called "ladies" in the US!?  Maybe there is a God of Etiquette after all.  
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23 posted 09-19-2012 10:20 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Huan

Wouldn't it be good to get away from the endless tit for tat between Left and Right, each trying to knock chips off the other.

The whole thing is kinda boring, kinda irrelevant imo.

The last para of the article is interesting though:

"“The Muslim men and women (and yes, there are plenty of women) who support—whether actively or passively—the idea that blasphemers deserve to suffer punishment are not a fringe group,” Ali explained. “On the contrary, they represent the mainstream of contemporary Islam.”"

Not a fringe group?  Well, let's assume she is correct at least about the passive bit (she is clear wrong about the active bit).  I would ask: why would we be surprised?  And, more to the point, WHY do they believe these things?  Understanding why is key to finding a solution.  
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24 posted 09-19-2012 12:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“And, more to the point, WHY do they believe these things?  Understanding why is key to finding a solution.  “


The Prophet Muhammad during his own life praised those who murdered
his critics.


http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Muslim/dp/1591020115/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348077430&sr=1-1&keywords=why+i+am+not+a+muslim


.

 
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