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Age Rage and the Innocence of Muslims

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Essorant
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25 posted 09-19-2012 02:45 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Unfortunately there are some deviant hadiths used to try to justify treating blasphemy as a punishable crime, but the overall practices of Muhammad, and the Quran, express the complete opposite in response to insults, mockery, ridicule, etc.



"Indeed, We (Allah) are sufficient for you against the mockers" (15:95)

"And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, 'Peace!' " (25:63)

"And when they [the righteous] hear Al-Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant." (28:55)

"And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." (33:48)

It was by the mercy of Allah that thou wast lenient with them (O Muhammad), for if thou hadst been stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from round about thee. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them upon the conduct of affairs. And when thou art resolved, then put thy trust in Allah. Lo! Allah loveth those who put their trust (in Him). (3:159)

It is in the Old Testament, not the Quran, that blasphemy is treated as punishable and punishable by death:

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:16)
 
Huan Yi
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26 posted 09-19-2012 03:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Did the Prophet Muhammad make war, have people
killed?  Did Jesus?


.
moonbeam
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27 posted 09-19-2012 03:38 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

You only have to spend an hour in the company of a C of E Bishop (half drunk) or a Mullah (half asleep) or a Rabbi, or even a couple of hours on Google to realise that the Quran, the Old Testament and the New Testament can be twisted to project any message you wish.  Quoting passages back and forth at each other is a total waste of time.  

As for Muhammad, he was a prophet, but also indisputably a man, subject to all the weakness of men.  Jesus, well, assuming that the guy actually existed at all as portrayed in the Bible, he certainly wasn’t a man as we know men; and the comparison therefore isn’t a fair one.  

It would be more appropriate to compare Muhammad with, say, Richard I of England: a wonderful Christian and Muslim slayer, or as wiki puts it, “a pious hero”.
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28 posted 09-19-2012 05:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"It would be more appropriate to compare Muhammad with, say, Richard I of England"


I can think of a number of places I wouldn't
openly do that; far many more than where I
could not do as much or worst with Christ.


"he certainly wasn’t a man as we know men; and the comparison therefore isn’t a fair one."  


Because he didn't approve murder?


PS: I think the consensus is that Jesus did exist.


.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (09-19-2012 05:41 PM).]

Essorant
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29 posted 09-20-2012 02:57 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Muhammad was not just the bearer of religion with Islam but the founder and leader of a nation (The Ummah) and a state (the government, politics, laws, etc. of The Ummah in general and Medina in specific) and upholder of the constitution (The Quran, and the special pact between the different tribes in Medina) therefore he had a far more complex and burdensome situation than Jesus.  How can you blame him for doing what leaders of all nations and states have to face - resorting to military action when it is felt most necessary?   A great leader of a nation and a state can't just say "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" etc, when an army is coming to try to destroy him and his people.   The people depended on him and he needed to depend on his followers for a lot more than that if they were going to survive.

moonbeam
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30 posted 09-20-2012 04:21 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Huan

Ess is pointing out with practical examples what I was trying to say.  You can't compare Muhammad with Jesus - one was a real flesh and blood man dealing with 'life', the other is a fairytale part god part man.  Like I said, maybe he did exist as a man, but patently he didn't exist as homo sapiens if he was precisely as portrayed in the Bible.

In any event it's not really the point.

The recorded history of many religions is littered with examples of barbarity and all the other human failings.  Nothing surprising about that, religion interpreted by humans is just as messy as anything else interepreted by us.

2000 years on surely it's time to stop pointing at stuff centuries ago, stop focussing on the bad bits of other people's ancient books and just recognise that the vast majority of people of whatever faith don't want to go around killing other people.

The enemy here isn't any particular religion or belief system - the enemy is extremism of any brand.

The obdurate determination to believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong all the time to the point where you will use force - physical, mental, economic etc to get your way, is what destroys any relationship, be it domestic or international.

Going off at a tangent, that's why I find the idea of members of the public rigidly supporting every facet of a political party's agenda so preposterous.  It indicates a total failure to engage independent thought.  The more educated and informed a person is, almost by definition the more centre he/she should be.  The only people who have any excuse to unswervingly adhere to a right wing view as opposed to a left wing and vice versa, are the politicians themselves - and they ain't doing it because of principle, but merely to preserve party lines.  
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31 posted 09-20-2012 08:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, call me dense (as many do) but, although I see many raised points as compatible with my own, I still don't understand how politics fit so much into these murders and atrocities...or why you found it necessary to throw " our own right wing evangelical religious maniacs" in there. Can't the topic be discussed on it's own merits without going to that type of name-calling?
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32 posted 09-20-2012 08:59 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Ok Mike, I withdraw "maniacs" and possibly even "right wing" (I'll have to think about what to substitute).  

I'm equally disenchanted with extreme religious views whether they come from the Bible Belt or Tehran.  I suppose I just expect more sense from a country with the freedoms and opportunities of the US, so the disappointment is heightened and the language more scathing.  Sorry if I offended you.
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33 posted 09-20-2012 10:55 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There are plenty of fairy tales concerning Muhammad,
but I think you would be hard pressed to find in the teachings of Christ,
or Buddha for that matter, approval for the murder of critics or military
conquest of those who were or are no threat except by their contrary existence.
What all three share in their actions and sayings was and is being
viewed as the path to Paradise.  The difference again is what was and is
by those actions and sayings allowed and approved to get there.


.
moonbeam
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34 posted 09-20-2012 11:14 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:

There are plenty of fairy tales concerning Muhammad,
but I think you would be hard pressed to find in the teachings of Christ,
or Buddha for that matter, approval for the murder of critics or military
conquest of those who were or are no threat except by their contrary existence.
What all three share in their actions and sayings was and is being
viewed as the path to Paradise.  The difference again is what was and is
by those actions and sayings allowed and approved to get there.


‘When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them ...’ (Sura 9:5); ‘make war on the leaders of unbelief ...’ (Sura 9:12).

Yes Huan you are surely right, Muslims everywhere are just dying to slay us Western idolaters, arrest us, besiege us, ambush us murder us.  And why?

Just so that they can, uh, get a free pass to Paradise!

~sigh~

And when we have proved with no shred of doubt that, to quote our Christian evangelical brethren “the Islamic religion itself is the primary cause of the problem.” And is “based in evil” what do you propose we do about it?
Ban Islam?  Nuke the Middle East? Send Obama to tax them out of existence?
Essorant
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35 posted 09-20-2012 12:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Moonbeam,

Why would you quote those passages without the rest of them and the context?

This is always done those passages from the Quran to try to demonize Islam.

To be fair, here are a few from the Bible:


"do not leave alive anything that breathes" (Deuteronomy 20:16)

" let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women" (Ezekiel 9:4-6)


quote:
approval for the murder of critics or military conquest of those who were or are no threat except by their contrary existence.



That's nonsense.  There is no such treatment of "critics" anywhere expressed in the Quran or in the history of Muhammad.   The Meccans were the ones trying to slay Muhammad and they continued to try to slay him and the community when they moved to Medina.  To suggest he was the one that went out of his way to fight, is plain lies.
 
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36 posted 09-20-2012 12:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Just so that they can, uh, get a free pass to Paradise!"


Yes, just as simple as that . . .
See it from their lives as they are
not yours.


As far as a solution, why are we so less willing to die
in order to kill others?  I think because life now for us
is pretty good so we’re in no hurry.  I think because
we can now talk about things, without the fear, (though
it has begun), that someone will leave our heads out
in the street as punishment and a warning, so we can sort
out the worth of anything that might call for those lives
we find pleasurable.    The hope would be that the
rest of the world will catch on and up but until that happens
we have to face and deal with the reality that there are people
willing to die in order kill us because we exist to get to Heaven


.

Huan Yi
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37 posted 09-20-2012 12:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


do not leave alive anything that breathes" (Deuteronomy 20:16)

" let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women" (Ezekiel 9:4-6)


Are these from the New Testaments
concerning the teachings of Christ?


.
moonbeam
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38 posted 09-20-2012 12:51 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
Why would you quote those passages without the rest of them and the context?


Why indeed Ess!  How about sarcasm and irony.  How about to show the pointlessness of pulling ancient text up, out of context, how about to try and suggest to Huan that the implication that ordinary Muslims have these bits and pieces of text floating around in their brains as a justification for killing people and thereby gain a passport to Paradise, is ludicrous.

It seems I failed, lol.
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39 posted 09-20-2012 01:17 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:

Yes, just as simple as that . . .
See it from their lives as they are
not yours.



You missed out the bit in bold (argg it won't bold, but I mean "Muslims everywhere" with the emphasis on "everywhere")

quote:
Muslims everywhere are just dying to slay us Western idolaters, arrest us, besiege us, ambush us murder us.  And why?

Just so that they can, uh, get a free pass to Paradise!



If you really think that "Muslims everywhere" are carrying out of context bits of the Quran around in their heads, just waiting to slay a Westerner so that they can get to Paradise, then I reckon it’s fairly pointless to debate further on that point.

quote:
in order to kill others?  I think because life now for us
is pretty good so we’re in no hurry.  I think because
we can now talk about things, without the fear, (though
it has begun), that someone will leave our heads out
in the street as punishment and a warning, so we can sort
out the worth of anything that might call for those lives
we find pleasurable.    The hope would be that the
rest of the world will catch on and up but until that happens
we have to face and deal with the reality that there are people
willing to die in order kill us because we exist to get to Heaven



I think what you are saying here is that we have life so comfortable now that we don’t want to lose it in a fight to the death over religion?  The implication being that in a less civilised or luxurious setting we would be more inclined to kill for a belief?

I’m not saying that you are entirely wrong about that – it’s consistent with what I know of human nature.  To some extent history bears it out too.  

However, that’s the premise, what follows in your reasoning is less clear.  

MY point would be that people who are comfortable and educated have a very great responsibility to be tolerant and understanding of people who are deprived, ground down by ruthless leaders and largely uneducated. The practical steps to be taken are clear.  Do everything possible to help the people, and everything possible to discredit and depose the violent terrorists and rulers.

If I understand you correctly though, you feel that the “rest of the world” is “willing to die in order to kill us” and that the solution is to “hope [they] will catch on” while at the same time recognising and proclaiming that they are killers and that their creed is evil?

That seems to me to be a solution which invites the very thing you fear.

............


[Note to Ron:  I see that there are a lot of “you’s” in the above.  I’m not sure whether this of itself qualifies this as “personal remarks or attacks” but if so I apologise.  To  Huan, I would just say that I mean no personal offence whatsoever, and thank you for the debate]
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40 posted 09-20-2012 01:40 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I’m of course not saying all, but enough, for it is a religious culture
that openly and incessantly promotes and condones such acts.
You get fed that from birth and you will get a lot of men who live to die
and a lot more people who will give at least tacit support if only not
to have those death lovers show up at their door,
(do you think every German under Hitler was a Nazi
or every Russian under Stalin a Communist).


I don’t know what the solution is but I don’t want us to get
to a point where a lot of innocent people are going to have
to die so our guys don’t.


PS  No offense taken

.


[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (09-20-2012 02:16 PM).]

Essorant
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41 posted 09-20-2012 02:37 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

America has a factory of its own Al Qaedas and Talibans - its own radicals, terrorists, massmurderers, mobs, gangs, mafia and various groups of organized crime.   And its violence-mongers often don't try to use things like a belief they are fighting to save their Ummah, religion and culture from being attacked or anything deep or profound to try to justify their violence.  I guess that is how violence is done in the "civilized" world - why use a religious belief or feeling of injustice to try to justify violence?   American terrorists are more "civilized".  For them money, drugs, sex, greediness, depression, anger, or perhaps a batman movie, are enough to commit some of the worst acts of violence committed in the world.  

People in the US should learn to look in their own "yard" more often before blaming other peoples or nations for so much violence springing up in their "yards".   As disturbed and violent as certain conditions may be in the Arab world, the people aren't buying the notion that they should be trying to "catch up" to the way things are in America, and I don't blame them.  
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42 posted 09-20-2012 02:38 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

I take your point about the Russians and the Germans under their respective leaders.  I mentioned Nazis higher up the thread, and promised to think about it some more.

Generally we are talking about a form of mass mesmerism I think, which is clearly possible - I can't deny that.  

You may even be right in suggesting that in this instance large numbers of Muslims are so mesmerised (whether to the point of actually wishing to kill westerners is imo debatable, but let that pass).

But even in Nazi Germany at the height of the fever, there were no doubt many who weren't fooled, and many who might have been have been rapidly snapped out of the delusion without having to go through the hell of a war, given the right circumstances.

All I'm saying is that the right circumstance in this case, is not to write off Islam as evil, and its followers as all deluded automatons, but to assume that they are basically good people like you and me, to appeal to the moderate leaders, engage with them, show them that the West is not composed of people who distrust and fear them, but above all, help them to marginalise their extremists.

This was good I think:  Interview with Blair on BBC’s Today Programme Sept 17 2012, opening dialogue:


Tony Blair: Well they do feel that, and you’re right by the way in saying that the problem with this is that you have a small number of real extremists, people who engage in violence, but the narrative goes I’m afraid far deeper which is why this is a big problem and will take a generation to sort out. But, it doesn’t justify the reaction I’m afraid, you see if we look at how we have to engage from the west, I think we need to engage in these ways. We need to be saying to people who are starting with their democracy - democracy is not just a way of voting it’s a way of thinking; the test of a democracy is how you treat the minority as well as how the majority comes to power. It’s about the economy and educating people for an open economy that can function in the modern world, and it’s about a view of religion, which is why the whole issue of religious interfaith and dialogue is so important, it’s about a view of religion that is pluralistic, that says, ‘look, I may be a Christian, I accept you’re a Muslim, we can live together and exist together; it doesn’t mean you are an unbeliever, an infidel because you disagree with me’.


Sarah Montague: You say that the way that governments should react the way that leaders react is to put a lid on it. Yet there’s no sign of that, or limited sign of that, and I wonder how you think the west, the US, Britain, European countries should react to this.


Tony Blair: The way we should react is we’ve got to stand up for forces that are trying to modernise the region, and we shouldn’t take a step back we’ve got to stay engaged so, if you look at what’s happening in any of these countries today, as I say the good news is, you take Libya, yes what happened was terrible and appalling, but actually the Libyan authorities have come out very strongly and denounced it. I think there are within each of these societies, and I see this, day in, day out, there are lots of people, good people, decent people who know that actually the problem isn’t some form of oppression by the west. The problem is they are now undergoing this process of transition and that if they want to reach true and open democracies the only way you do that in the era of globalisation is by people being open to one another and not with a closed and wrong-headed view of religion.


... and ...


Sarah Montague: You seem so sure, well you say that you’re sure the modernisers will win but you look at what’s happening across the Muslim world with embassies closing and the protests and one wonders why you’re so sure.


Tony Blair: Because I think in the end the same spirit that overthrew a lot of these dictatorships is a spirit that in the end is of its essence open minded, and I think the great debate in the world today actually is between the open minded and the closed minded. Those people who see globalisation, the internet, all the possibilities of technology and say look this is a great opportunity and those who hate all this and want to close down in the face of it. And I believe ultimately those people with that open mind will win.


Sarah Montague: And those who say across the Muslim world and elsewhere, who say look Muslims across the world, look at the situation between Israel and the Palestinian territories and they look at the Iraq war, they look at other things that have gone on and there is a justified grievance that the Muslim world has against the west.


Tony Blair: I think it’s very important that we disaggregate some of that, but also don’t allow that argument to gain any more than it’s really got when you analyse it. I mean in respect of Israel and Palestine, look this is a huge issue for people across the whole of the region, but I don’t think we should confuse that or give that as an excuse for what is happening. Yes, we should push forward on the Middle East peace process, it’s enormously important, but the absence of peace should not mean this type of violence. And as for Iraq or indeed Afghanistan, you know, most of the people that have died there have died in sectarian violence, now the truth is both, and you can agree or disagree with the decisions there, but the people of both countries actually want democracy and want neither Saddam Hussein on one side or the Taliban on the other. What we’ve got to do, and this is why it’s important we stay engaged, is we’ve got to be there on the side of those people who want that type of open minded society and help them. Because they need help. They will, in my view, they will in the end win, but we can shorten that struggle and make it a lot less bloody if we’re there supporting them, articulating their case and helping them. One way we do that, by the way, is not allowing this nonsense that somehow this is about an oppression of Muslims by the west because it isn’t true and each time you make that argument you kind of fuel that sense of grievance which itself is part of a narrative that is wrong.


Full transcript:
http://www.tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/news/2012/09/17


[This message has been edited by moonbeam (09-20-2012 03:17 PM).]

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43 posted 09-20-2012 03:11 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"is we’ve got to be there on the side of those people who want that type of open minded society and help them. Because they need help. They will, in my view, they will in the end win, but we can shorten that struggle and make it a lot less bloody if we’re there supporting them, articulating their case and helping them. One way we do that, by the way, is not allowing this nonsense that somehow this is about an oppression of Muslims by the west because it isn’t true and each time you make that argument you kind of fuel that sense of grievance which itself is part of a narrative that is wrong."


Agree

.
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44 posted 09-20-2012 03:21 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:

Agree



Exactly, we agree about this.  And frivolous and erroneous videos don't help at all in the drive to convince Muslims of this.

Do you agree with all of it, or just that bit?
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45 posted 09-20-2012 03:35 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
America has a factory of its own Al Qaedas and Talibans - its own radicals, terrorists, massmurderers, mobs, gangs, mafia and various groups of organized crime.   And its violence-mongers often don't try to use things like a belief they are fighting to save their Ummah, religion and culture from being attacked or anything deep or profound to try to justify their violence.  I guess that is how violence is done in the "civilized" world - why use a religious belief or feeling of injustice to try to justify violence?   American terrorists are more "civilized".  For them money, drugs, sex, greediness, depression, anger, or perhaps a batman movie, are enough to commit some of the worst acts of violence committed in the world.  

People in the US should learn to look in their own "yard" more often before blaming other peoples or nations for so much violence springing up in their "yards".   As disturbed and violent as certain conditions may be in the Arab world, the people aren't buying the notion that they should be trying to "catch up" to the way things are in America, and I don't blame them.  



It’s a good point Ess, though perhaps the outward physical turmoil in the US is nowhere near that in the Middle East?  I see what you mean, about “civilised terrorism” – but the scale isn’t the same and the underlying reasons are very different I suspect.  Boredom, complacency, greed, jealousy, frustration, yes drugs, drink etc; the malaises of a “civilised” society.  I guess it’s quite difficult though to ever envisage a human utopia where everyone behaves perfectly and everyone is contented – perhaps George Orwell was on to something.  Perhaps we just aren’t responsible enough to exercise total free will.

Is US society nearer to that utopia than the Middle East.  Being western I would have to say that I think it is, and I suspect from what I’ve read and the interviews I’ve heard that a lot of Muslims would probably welcome the freedoms that attach to democracy.
  
Having said that, the idea that some western people have that theirs is the only valid culture, is abhorrent.  There are several countries in the world I would rather live in than the UK, but America is not one of them; so I wouldn’t blame the Arabs for rejection the culture.

However that’s not what Huan meant I suspect.  To be fair I think that by “catch up” he was merely suggesting that a more enlightened approach to debate would be good!
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46 posted 09-20-2012 03:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


That bit is what stood out for me.


As to the video, I haven’t seen it . . .
But what would you have in response to it:


But it’s a different aspect of Koh’s pre-confirmation advocacy that is relevant to events over the last week. In the wake of the embassy riots, federal probation officers questioned Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, a California man purportedly involved in the production of the anti-Islamic film that has been blamed for causing the violence. The infamous press release from our embassy in Egypt and subsequent administration statements seemed to suggest that free speech is in conflict with a Muslim right not to be offended.
This is where Koh comes in. One of the reasons many conservatives opposed his confirmation was that he wrote a paper implying that the U.S. ought to take the same stance toward free speech as many European countries do, fining and imprisoning those who say things that are offensive to specific religious or ethnic groups. In a 2003 Stanford Law Review article called “On American Exceptionalism,” he argued:
Admittedly, in a globalizing world, our exceptional free speech tradition can cause problems abroad, as, for example, may occur when hate speech is disseminated over the Internet. In my view, however, our Supreme Court can moderate these conflicts by applying more consistently the transnationalist approach to judicial interpretation.
He also wrote, “As American lawyers, scholars and activists, we should make better use of transnational legal process to press our own government to avoid the most negative and damaging features of American exceptionalism.”
“That’s a nasty little quote there,” says Steven Groves of the Heritage Foundation, who helped lead the attempt to block Koh’s confirmation, pointing out its implication: that if we just agreed that “free speech” means what Europeans say it means, we wouldn’t have to deal with rioting Islamists. Unfortunately, that would involve a less-than-robust commitment to the First Amendment, as Stuart Taylor Jr. argued in a piece for National Journal.
“Transnational law may sometimes trump the established interpretation of the First Amendment,” Taylor wrote. “This is the clear meaning of Koh’s writings, although he implied otherwise during his Senate confirmation hearing.”


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/327857/harold-koh-and-first-amendment-betsy-   woodruff


Imagine where that would go . . .

As far as all worlds being equal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhvhNZC51gY


.

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47 posted 09-20-2012 03:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I still find it interesting, and erroneous, that people in this thread are referring to religion, be it either Christian or Islam.

The events of 9/11 have nothing to do with religion, no matter how many times they scream Allah akbar! . The murder, sodomy and rape of the ambassador has nothing to do with religion. To delve into religion as a possible reason to justify the actions is silly, in my opinion. It is only an excuse, not a reason.
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.


"The events of 9/11 have nothing to do with religion, no matter how many times they scream Allah akbar! ."


Sometimes people really mean what they say
as they are about to die.


.
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49 posted 09-20-2012 04:05 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

quote:
“Transnational law may sometimes trump the established interpretation of the First Amendment,” Taylor wrote.


And that would be a bad thing!??

....

Maher was very funny.  

Did I suggest the worlds were "equal" though?  Far from it.  There are clearly many aspects of western civilisation that I consider would benefit the Middle East - democracy would be a good start!  Equally I think we could learn and benefit from knowing more about their culture too.  Many times we don't get it "right".

I think Maher was wrong about one thing.  It's not that we don't listen to our religious nutters, we do.  It's more that they don't get to put many of their crazy ideas into practice.  Without something called democracy and laws that support it, could I see Muslims beheaded in the streets of Jackson, Mississippi?  Certainly I could.

All we seem to be possibly disagreeing about here is how to get from A to B.  For instance, how to ensure that the values and laws that prevent beheadings in US streets get translated to the Middle East.  

I'm suggesting constructive engagement in a spirit of friendship coupled with force applied carefully and in the right places.

 
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