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Passions in Poetry

Obamacare

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Huan Yi
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0 posted 07-01-2012 01:10 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Now that the Supreme Court has judged the mandate to be constitutional
under the taxing authority of congress, a question: what will insurance
cost a young healthy man or woman, not insured through his or her employer,
on an annual basis in order to avoid the tax for non-compliance?

Another question: using the Court’s rationale, what not doing can the
Government not tax as a consequence?

I admit, when I first read it, I was reminded of Augustus Caesar’s  laws taxing men for not
being married and having children . . .


So basically Americans have lost the right to be left alone.


.
Grinch
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1 posted 07-01-2012 08:35 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
what will insurance cost a young healthy man or woman, not insured through his or her employer, on an annual basis in order to avoid the tax for non-compliance?


That depends on how much the individual earns.

If the young man or woman earned $14000 a year they’d pay $420 a year.

If the young man or woman earned $44000 a year they’d pay $4400 a year.

Whether they are healthy or not makes no difference to the cost of insurance however if they decide not to purchase insurance and become sick the cost of any required treatment must be added to the cost of paying the penalty.

quote:
Another question: using the Court’s rationale, what not doing can the
Government not tax as a consequence?


Your question is a little confusing but I think you’re asking whether the government can tax people for not doing something that US law dictates that they should be doing.

The short answer is yes - the SC decision doesn’t change anything in that regard.

.
Balladeer
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2 posted 07-02-2012 12:35 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The question I'd like answered by contributors here is....tax or penalty?
Grinch
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3 posted 07-02-2012 01:54 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Do you mean the charge applicable if you choose not obtain a health care policy?

It certainly matches the broad economic definition of a Tax:

A non-penal, yet compulsory transfer of resources from the private to the Public sector levied on a basis of predetermined criteria.

Not purchasing a health care policy isn’t a crime so it can’t be described as a penalty or fine – so I’d say it's a tax.

.
Huan Yi
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4 posted 07-02-2012 03:48 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"If the young man or woman earned $44000 a year they’d pay $4400 a year."


Again given young and healthy,
is that cost higher than it would be if
the insurance was based on personal
medical history and requirments?


$4,400 would be a very high cost
to some young and healthy men and
women I know in that income range . . .


Are you allowed to lessen the cost by
opting for a high deductable, (some eight
years back I had a $5,000 deductable
betting on my own good health and saved
significantly on premiums)?

.

Grinch
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5 posted 07-02-2012 05:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Again given young and healthy,
is that cost higher than it would be if
the insurance was based on personal
medical history and requirments?


The $4400 was based on the average cost of a health care policy for a healthy individual in 2008. Given a historical yearly increase of 6-7% the amount paid would be lower.

quote:
Are you allowed to lessen the cost by
opting for a high deductable, (some eight
years back I had a $5,000 deductable
betting on my own good health and saved
significantly on premiums)?


The $4400 is the maximum an individual earning $44000 would pay; if you can get a qualifying policy cheaper on one of the Health care Exchanges you’re free to do so.

.
Denise
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6 posted 07-04-2012 10:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The effect of the SCOTUS decision gave broad new powers to the Congress to be able to tax us on non-participation in an activity. The Constitution does not grant them that authority. Their taxing authority is limited. This ruling must be challenged and struck down.

It should also be struck down due to the fact that if it IS to be considered a tax, the law is illegal in that it originated in the Senate and not in the House as required of tax legislation.

Even though the SCOTUS declared that it was Constitutional if it is considered a tax, actually rewriting the law to make it Constitutional, The Liar in Chief and his minions, are STILL declaring it a penalty and not a tax, avoiding all mention of the truth of the SCOTUS decision.

*Poof* Down the memory hole of the Ministry of Truth.  
Denise
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7 posted 07-04-2012 10:54 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

“To be a constitutional tax, it must be an excise tax, an income tax, or a proportional capitation tax.” These are the ONLY types of tax that the United State Congress has a recognized, constitutional power to impose."

http://www.westernjournalism.com/chief-traitor-roberts-provides-congress-with-unlimited-power/
Denise
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8 posted 07-04-2012 11:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1589190
Grinch
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9 posted 07-04-2012 03:30 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
the law is illegal in that it originated in the Senate and not in the House


Sorry but that’s simply not true.

H.R. 3590 – which contains the revenue provisions in the health care law - originated in the House, was amended by the Senate, then passed back to the House and approved on March 21 2010:

MAJOR ACTIONS:
9/17/2009 Introduced in House
10/8/2009 Passed/agreed to in House: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Agreed to by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 416 - 0 (Roll no. 768).

12/24/2009 Passed/agreed to in Senate: Passed Senate with an amendment and an amendment to the Title by Yea-Nay Vote. 60 - 39. Record Vote Number: 396.

3/21/2010 Resolving differences -- House actions: On motion that the House agree to the Senate amendments Agreed to by recorded vote: 219 - 212 (Roll no. 165).

3/21/2010 Cleared for White House.
3/22/2010 Presented to President.
3/23/2010 Signed by President.
3/23/2010 Became Public Law No: 111-148
Denise
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10 posted 07-05-2012 11:13 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's my understanding that their was a House version (HR 3962) and a Senate version (H.R. 3590). The house version hit a roadblock in the Senate, the Senate passed their own version, and the House adopted the Senate version through the reconcilliation procedure.


The Affordable Health Care for America Act (or HR 3962)[1] was a bill that was crafted by the United States House of Representatives in November 2009. At the encouragement of the Obama administration, the 111th Congress devoted much of its time to enacting reform of the United States' health care system. Known as the "House bill," it was the House of Representative's chief legislative proposal during the health reform debate, but the Affordable Health Care for America Act as originally drafted never became law.
On December 24, 2009, the Senate passed an alternative health care bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590).[2] In 2010, the House abandoned its reform bill in favor of amending the Senate bill (via the reconciliation process) in the form of the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Health_Care_for_America_Act
Denise
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11 posted 07-05-2012 01:51 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Senate passed its healthcare bill, H.R. 3590, the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act,” on Christmas Eve by a vote of 60-39! ANA wants to make sure you have the latest information on what is happening in Washington, DC! Where is the health care reform debate going? What has happened since the Senate voted on Christmas Eve? All of your questions concerning health care reform are answered here!

Both the House bill, the Affordable Health Care for America Act (H.R. 3962), and the Senate bill, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (H.R. 3590), clearly represent a movement toward much-needed, comprehensive and meaningful reform for our nation’s healthcare system. ANA has highlighted the nursing provisions within H.R. 3962 and H.R. 3590 and categorized them by Nursing Workforce Funding, Advanced Practice Registered Nurses, and Quality.
http://www.capitolupdate.org/index.php/tag/h-r-3590/
Denise
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12 posted 07-05-2012 03:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Nothing like passing an open-ended law that lets lawyers and bureaucrats keep adding to the law. So on top of a 2700 page law we have 13000 pages of regulations so far with no end in sight.

We can kiss whatever is left of our freedoms goodbye if we don't get this montrosity repealed.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/07/lawyers-have-already-drafted-13000-pages-of-regulations-for-new-obamatax-law/
Grinch
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13 posted 07-05-2012 05:26 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
It's my understanding that their was a House version (HR 3962) and a Senate version (H.R. 3590). The house version hit a roadblock in the Senate, the Senate passed their own version, and the House adopted the Senate version through the reconcilliation procedure.


Not quite Denise.

The House bill did get stuck in the Senate but the Senate didn’t create their own version, which they knew would be illegal.

Instead the the Senate amended an existing bill, HR 3590, which originated in the House. The process is a standard legislative procedure and complies with rules governing the passage of bills containing revenue items.

.
Huan Yi
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14 posted 07-05-2012 05:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Just how many new taxes are there in Obamacare and how much will they cost
an average American taxpaying household?


.
Denise
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15 posted 07-05-2012 07:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Then why are these sources stating that it was the Senate bill that was passed, in lieu of the House bill?
Denise
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16 posted 07-05-2012 07:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here are some of the hidden taxes, John.
http://www.newsmax.com/GroverNorquist/Obamacare-20-hidden-taxes/2012/06/29/id/443995  
Denise
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17 posted 07-05-2012 07:55 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I finally found the answer, Grinch! They played a 'shell game'....took a totally UNRELATED House Bill and gutted it and 'inserted' Obamacare into it. What a bunch of slimeballs these politicians are.

The bill that passed the Senate wasn’t technically a Senate bill. Reid took a bill that had already passed the House, stripped out the provisions to turn it into a “shell bill,” and then inserted the text of ObamaCare to get around this requirement. The bill that passed the Senate was H.R.3590, which initially had to do with tax breaks for military homeowners. And yes, they’ve used the “shell bill” strategy before.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/06/28/say-doesnt-the-constitution-require-tax-bills-to-originate-in-the-house/
Grinch
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18 posted 07-06-2012 01:21 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Then why are these sources stating that it was the Senate bill that was passed, in lieu of the House bill?

Perhaps it’s because they don’t know what they’re talking about.



quote:
I finally found the answer, Grinch! They played a 'shell game'....took a totally UNRELATED House Bill and gutted it and 'inserted' Obamacare into it.


Yes, as I said:

“Instead the Senate amended an existing bill, HR 3590, which originated in the House.”

It’s a legitimate congressional process.

quote:
What a bunch of slimeballs these politicians are.


For using a legitimate process?
Essorant
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19 posted 07-06-2012 01:48 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Has Obamacare improved things for the people or not?  
Denise
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20 posted 07-06-2012 03:12 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, Grinch, for using a loophole....take a bill that passed in the House on a totally UNRELATED matter, gut it and insert the Senate version of the healtcare bill that the Senate wrote. So they use the House Bill #, stick their own legislation into it and pretend it originated in the House. That totally is not in the spirit of observing the Constiution. It's nothing but a sleazy trick. So in all reality it IS a Senate bill and the people DO know what they are talking about.

Ess, it's helped kids be able to stay on their parents' policies until they are 26, and helped some people with pre-existing conditions. But those issues could have been addressed without the government taking over the entire industries of healthcare and insurance. It's hurt me in that my premium copay has gone up 400% so far this past year, and in the future when the exchanges are instituted as my union already told us they will be putting us into those instead of continuing what we have. So much for you can keep your health plan if you like your health plan. And the LIAR in Chief is STILL saying that! Nothing but LIES and a despicable power grab by the federal government. And it will hurt me again when I become Medicare eligible due to Medicare being gutted of $700 Billion to partially fund Obamacare. There will be rationing and cuts in service. An unelected board of bureaucrats will be in charge of determining level of care depending on age and health history. God only knows how much worse this monstrosity will get since they are still writing it. There are already 13,000 pages of new regulations that have been written to pile on top of the over 2000 pages of the legislation.
Balladeer
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21 posted 07-06-2012 04:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I agree, Denise. For an administration that promised such an open government where everyone would always know what was going on, they certainly go out of their way to make sure people don't.
Huan Yi
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22 posted 07-06-2012 05:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


It encourages potential employers to go with machines or overseas
or to make due with those they already have.


.
Denise
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23 posted 07-10-2012 03:44 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

My sister just saw an analyst discussing ObamaCare and it's impact on Americans.

People who do not have insurance will be required to purchase from the government exchanges. Probable cost for a family policy would be about $12K per year. Policies will be expensive because only full coverage policies will be permitted - no more less expensive catastrophic policies will be permitted.

Many employers may drop coverage and pay the $2K per employee penalty. The penalty will apply only to employers with 50 or more employees. They will only pay the penalty for the employees who need a subsidy to purchase from the exchanges. Even if you qualify for a subsidy, it's not going to pay the entire bill. You may still end up having to find $4K - $5K to chip in. If an employee does not qualify for a subsidy, the employer doesn't get fined for that person. If the employer drops your coverage, they are not required to give you the difference as a salary increase to pay for your own policy.

If a person cannot afford insurance by 2016, the fine for a family policy will be over $2K per year taken out of your tax refund or as a tax due if you have no refund coming. The fine starts out lower and then works up to over $2K for families that don't have insurance by 2016. This fine will get you nothing as far as health coverage. If you want coverage, you would still need to then purchase a policy. Even though insurance companies cannot deny anyone coverage now, you still need to pay a lot to have that coverage.

How many employers big and small will now drop insurance coverage and pay fines on just some of the employees that were dropped? Employers will be in a position to save tons of money, don't need to provide any money to make it up to the employees, and only some employers (50+ employees) will be fined and only for the employees who require a subsidy.

I fail to see how this is good for anyone in America. I fail to see how this improves health care or lowers costs!

Also, 1/2 trillion $ will be taken from Medicare and moved to Medicaid. So who is really throwing granny off the cliff?

THIS NEEDS TO BE REPEALED.
Grinch
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24 posted 07-10-2012 05:58 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Have you verified any of the claims made by the ‘analyst’ Denise?

.


 
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