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Voter ID....thoughts?

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Denise
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25 posted 03-18-2012 01:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I would just say that the Dems are doing a lot more than 'not trumpeting' Voter ID laws...they are actively fighting against it...witness the latest actions of the DOJ.

I see nothing wrong with requiring a legitimate photo ID to vote. We need it for everything else we do. Why not that? Claims of disenfranchising segments of the population don't seem to carry any legitimacy when the states involved in those laws are making the ID available free of charge. So where is the disenfranchisement?  I don't get it.
Balladeer
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26 posted 03-18-2012 06:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'll answer more fully when I have more time, Regina. Thank you for such a thoughtful reply. Yes, Latins predominately vote democratic, a fact that will be easy to verify. Are some upset with Obama now? Oh, yes, as are Jews and blacks who voted for him last time on his "hope and change" platform.

Ask yourself what justifies the administration's actions in this matter. They are taking on several states over this. In a time their time could be better spent on the economy, unemployment and all of the important challenges they are facing, they are using their time and resources to fight the states over this. Now, if it is such a non-issue, why are they doing this? Why bother taking states to court over something that, to you and others, really doesn't matter? Because they are fighting for the person who doesn't have the  35 dollars to get a copy of their birth certificate? I find that unlikely.

As I said before, one side would like better controls that voter registration be restricted to those eligible to vote and one side wants those controls to be squelched. Why would anyone choose the second as the appropriate one?

Ron
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27 posted 03-18-2012 08:26 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ask yourself what justifies the administration's actions in this matter.

Robert Heinlein once wrote, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think, for some, we might have to add "... stupidity or an honest difference of opinion."

What if the States tried to pass laws limiting voting to land owners, Mike? Or to just white, Christian males? While those may seem extremes to you, and of course they are, they should also illustrate the absolute need for the Federal government to oversee ANY limitations imposed on voting procedures. We went to war with England in large part because the Colonies were being ruled without any say in their ruling, and the right to vote for representation is more integral to our nation than even freedom of speech or religion.

People too often want to fix problems by causing much greater problems.  When a guilty man walks away from justice because of a "technicality" there's always someone screaming that our laws should be tougher. Similarly, when instances of voter fraud are suggested there's someone (often the same someone) demanding tougher voting laws. I fervently believe that if even one innocent man is punished, or even one valid vote can't be cast, then those stricter laws have failed to protect the RIGHT people. It's admittedly a fine line to walk. We need law lest we fall to anarchy, but we need good law not just more law. Which, for any Republicans listening in, is exactly the same as saying we need good government not bigger government.

Voter fraud is already against the law. If we can't enforce the laws we have what sense does it make to impose more laws? You say there are 1.8 million dead people still on the active voter rolls, Mike? Well, let's get them OFF the rolls then. Instead of creating more paperwork by imposing additional burdens on the individual, lets insist the states do their jobs as already legislated. We should be doing everything in our power to make it easier for people to cast their ballots, not harder.

Yes, we need measures to help insure honest voting. We might not necessarily agree on what those measures should be, Mike, but I sincerely hope a difference of opinion won't cause you to accuse me of a conspiracy to break the law by condoning voter fraud?


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28 posted 03-19-2012 12:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Voter fraud is already against the law. If we can't enforce the laws we have what sense does it make to impose more laws?

Good question, Ron. Mainly it's because that's what we do. Look at gun laws. We have plenty of gun laws in effect and yet we pass new gun laws to add to the ones we don't enforce. Look at immigration laws. When states try to enforce the immigration laws on the books, they are condemned for it. There are plenty of areas where laws are in place that are not enforced. Voter registration is just one of them.
'
, they should also illustrate the absolute need for the Federal government to oversee ANY limitations imposed on voting procedures.

I agree. Where do you see the limitation? By having the voters show proper ID? THAT is a limitation? Then showing ID to cash a check, board a plane, get a passport or driver's license must also be limitations? Is the government fighting those limitations?

We might not necessarily agree on what those measures should be, Mike, but I sincerely hope a difference of opinion won't cause you to accuse me of a conspiracy to break the law by condoning voter fraud?

A difference of opinion, Ron? A conspiracy to break the law? Ron, you are not a dumb man, no matter how many times Nan says she beats you in Scrabble. You know exactly what is behind this. Democrats want illegals to vote. They want any group to vote that they feel will vote democratic.  If that is calling their actions a conspiracy, then I do so wholeheartedly. I have no doubt that if there were evidence that illegals voted predominately republican, democrats would be the ones demanding exactly what they are fighting now.

Bottom line.....republicans want proof of citizenship to vote. Democrats do not. The rest is all smoke and mirrors.


Ron
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29 posted 03-19-2012 09:22 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Good question, Ron. Mainly it's because that's what we do.

One common definition of insanity, Mike, is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Creating new laws instead of enforcing the old ones hasn't worked so well for either guns or immigration, the two examples you've cited, so why should we expect it to work any better for voter registrations?

Maybe it's time to stop doing what we do?

quote:
By having the voters show proper ID? THAT is a limitation? Then showing ID to cash a check, board a plane, get a passport or driver's license must also be limitations? Is the government fighting those limitations?

Because in comparison, Mike, those are all very trivial things. Our country wasn't founded on the premise that everyone should be able to cash a check, board a plane, drive a car, et al. Restrictions on things like that are inconveniences. More importantly, they can be changed by the will of the people. If enough people don't want to be forced to show ID to cash a check they can use the ballot box to have it changed. They can elect representatives who will pass new legislation making it illegal to require ID when cashing a check. Or their representatives can institute wholly new ways for cashing checks. I know it sounds silly, I know it's never going to happen, but the point is that people still have options. When you take away their right to vote by imposing unnecessary restrictions, there are no options left to them. At least no peaceful ones.

quote:
They want any group to vote that they feel will vote democratic.

And Republicans want any group they feel will vote Democratic to be restricted, or better yet, eliminated. Both are self-serving and short sighted views, but have NOTHING to do with the issues. I don't care what motivates them. I only care about what is right and what is wrong. Adding additional restrictions to the voting process is wrong. And dangerous.

Again, Mike, if we don't want illegal immigrants or dead citizens to vote in elections then we should remove them from the voting rolls. It requires nothing more than actually doing the paperwork that is already legally required of the state. And that is absolutely where the burden should lie; on the bureaucrats, not on the citizens.


Balladeer
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30 posted 03-19-2012 08:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

When you take away their right to vote by imposing unnecessary restrictions, there are no options left to them. At least no peaceful ones.

Then that is our difference in our ways of thinking. I do not see proving citizenship as an unnecessary restrictions. It seems to me to be a necessary step. If you want to speak of the founding fathers, my guess would be that they had citizens in mind when speaking of voting rights. Proof of citizenship ahould be a logical procedure. if you consider it "unnecessary" then you are calling the entire concept unnecessary. Perhaps we should just have all voters "cross their hearts and hope to die" to stop them from fibbing about their citizenship??

SInce you feel strongly that laws already on the books should be enforced, then it's good to know you stood behind all of the states that Obama has gone after with regards to immigration reform and I applaud you for that. This to me seems to be another case of enforcement.

With all due respect, this entire thing seems silly of me to debate. We are debating whether or not citizens need to show proof of citizenship before voting, since voting requires citizenship. To me that's a given. To those who it is not, I';m apparently not capable of understanding them.
Ron
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31 posted 03-19-2012 09:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I do not see proving citizenship as an unnecessary restrictions.

Neither do I, Mike. It's the manner of proof over which we disagree.

You're essentially charging people for the right to vote. The left hand says, "You must have a valid photo ID to vote." And the right hand says, "Here, we'll sell you a valid photo ID." Your argument that most people need an ID anyway is an argument that would exclude only the poorest and most disenfranchised, which is exactly the problem. If even one innocent man is punished or even one valid vote can't be cast, the law has failed to protect the RIGHT people.


Balladeer
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32 posted 03-19-2012 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Texas Legislature passed Senate Bill 14, creating a new photo voter identification requirement for voter qualification in all elections in Texas beginning January 1, 2012. This advisory is intended as an overview of the new requirement. Additional information and forms are forthcoming. The new law requires all voters to present one of the following forms of photo identification in order to be eligible to vote:

    Driverís license, election identification certificate, personal identification card, or concealed handgun license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety;
    United States Military identification card containing the personís photograph;
    United States citizenship certificate containing the personís photograph; or
    United States passport.

There are several exemptions to the photo voter identification requirement. Voters with a disability may apply with the county voter registrar for an exemption. Pursuant to Senate Bill 14, the exemption application, which our office will prescribe, must contain written documentation from either the U.S. Social Security Administration evidencing the applicantís disability, or from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs evidencing a disability rating of at least 50 percent. In addition, the applicant must state that he or she has no valid form of photo identification. Those who obtain a disability exemption will be allowed to vote by presenting a voter registration certificate reflecting the exemption.

Other exemptions include voters who have a consistent religious objection to being photographed and voters who do not have any photo identification as a result of certain natural disasters as declared by the President of the United States or the Texas Governor. These voters may cast a provisional ballot at the polls and must sign an affidavit attesting to those facts in the presence of the county voter registrar within six days of the election date.

Finally, the new law creates a ďcure periodĒ for voters who cast a provisional ballot without presenting a valid form of photo identification. These voters have up to six days after the election to present to the county voter registrar appropriate photo identification. Once this and all other requirements are met, then the provisional ballot must be accepted.


Lastly, Senate Bill 14 creates a new form of photo identification called an election identification certificate, which the Texas Department of Public Safety issues. Effective January 1, 2012, registered voters or those eligible to register who do not have a required form of photo identification may apply for the election identification certificate. There is no fee for the certificate.
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/laws/advisory2011-10.shtml


so much for the "Here, we'll sell you a valid I.D." reasoning.
Ron
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33 posted 03-20-2012 01:54 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. Yea, like that makes voting "free" again. Is this really the kind of bureaucracy Republicans are advocating these days, Mike? We're going to need a new government agency just to count the hoops people are forced to jump through.

So what happens, Mike, if an illegal alien or a dead person walks in and asks for an Election Identification Certificate? Or, more succinctly perhaps, how does one prove one is NOT an illegal alien or a dead person? And how do they do it without cost, either in time consuming red tape or cold hard cash?
Balladeer
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34 posted 03-20-2012 08:32 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, Ron...you've worn me down with your sparkling redress!

Anyone should be allowed to vote. he Chinese can send 6 billion or so tourists to choose the candidate of their choice. The Disney characters ACORN signed up should animate themselves down to the voting booths and cast their ballots for their own Goofy candidate. The dead should rise en masse in a sequel entitled "Night of the Living (or unliving) Voter." The old Chicago motto of Vote Early and Vote Often should be a button on every voter's shirt or blouse. In the case of those who have just swum up from Mexico to vote, make that their swimming trunks.

No one should be inconvenienced to vote. Voting Wagons should drive the streets and visit all residents, knocking on doors and presenting ballots, not asking people to actually spend the energy getting out of their easy chairs to vote, but presenting the ballots to them, along with a pen, of course, because no one should have to use up their own ink or pencil lead.

Anything presenting any cost, no matter how small, or any expenditure of enery or anything that could involve the dreaded "red tape" should be outlawed. Being asked to fill out a form should be considered torture on the same level as waterboarding.

How dare republicans be so Draconian as to require people to prove their citizenship just because the silly law states that voters must be citizens! Even though it is free, people may have to stand in line (we all know how grueling that is) or fill out forms and running the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome.

I've tried to match you in silliness but you are still the King.
Ron
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35 posted 03-20-2012 01:49 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. Mike, I'm not even in the royal line when it comes to silliness (or anything else, I suppose). You're just making it a whole lot harder than it needs to be.

People already have to register before they can vote, Mike. Thanks to Clinton's National Voter Registration Act of 1993, the vast majority of Americans now register when they renew their driver's license or apply for social services. We should be able to put a check mark next to almost all those names and consider them already vetted?

It's then up to the State to check the remaining names against public records to determine citizenship. Living in Amish country, I know a lot of people who don't have a picture ID (including at least one family member who is not Amish). However, I don't know anyone who doesn't have a Social Security number. Our government already knows who is and isn't a legal citizen, Mike. They probably know what you and I had for breakfast.

You register to vote. The State vets your registration. You vote. It really shouldn't be any more difficult or complex than that.


Balladeer
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36 posted 03-21-2012 01:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obviously it IS more difficult, Ron, or 5 states would not be taking extra measures like they are. I'll check further.
Ron
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37 posted 03-21-2012 09:06 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Sorry, Mike, but that's not a rationale I'm willing to follow. Just because five states do something doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do. A man with a hammer starts to think everything looks like a nail, and legislators similarly begin to see new legislation as the cure for every evil. As you said earlier, that's just "what we do," and it's exactly why we have a whole lot more government than we need.

I won't pretend, however, that my suggestions aren't overly simplified. They are. But I think the underlying point remains the same.

In a court of law, the onus is on the state to prove guilt, not on the defendant to prove innocence. Voting in this country is such a basic human right that I think it has to be approached with exactly the same care. The burden has to fall on the State, Mike, not on the individual voters.

Again and yet again, if even one innocent man is punished or even one valid vote can't be cast, then the law has failed to protect the RIGHT people.


Balladeer
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38 posted 03-23-2012 10:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

interesting video...
http://mrctv.org/videos/are-voter-id-laws-racist
Ron
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39 posted 03-23-2012 02:11 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I thought the most interesting part, Mike, centered on the people interviewed. Did any of them look to you like they had been forced to go without a meal lately?

I don't think voter obstruction laws are necessarily racist. Such laws, rather, tend to discourage the poor of all colors equally well.

The disproportionate overlap between race and poverty? Now, THAT is racist.


Balladeer
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40 posted 03-23-2012 10:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting take, Ron. One of the most interesting parts of it I found was Debbie Wasserman chultz' comment.
Huan Yi
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41 posted 03-23-2012 11:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.
"The disproportionate overlap between race and poverty? Now, THAT is racist."


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/293878/race-and-rhetoric-thomas-sowell


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