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RUSH to Judgement - sanitized version.

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Denise
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50 posted 03-11-2012 06:53 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You're welcome Michael.

Grinch, I didn't mean the issue of this thread title. I meant the issue of Obama forcing this mandate, which he assured them he wouldn't do when he needed their support to get Obamacare passed and his attempt now to frame the issue as the 'GOP hate women'.

The compromise he proposed is not acceptable to the Catholic organizations. They will not contract with insurers that offer that coverage...period. It is a moral issue for them, and Obamacare will not just allow them not to offer coverage without a massive financial penalty per employee/student. Because of that really bad law that nobody read, employees and students can't simply have their portion of premiums or fees reduced and go buy their own coverage without a penalty to the institution or organization. One article that I read stated that after the 'grace period' they were given, it could be as much as $100. per day/per student/employee until they come into compliance with the new mandate.
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51 posted 03-11-2012 07:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
The compromise he proposed is not acceptable to the Catholic organizations


It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.

quote:
They will not contract with insurers that offer that coverage...period


That's their choice Denise, presumably they're willing to accept the consequences. Personally, I think they'd be stupid to refuse to arrange health care coverage that doesn't include contraceptive cover simply because the insurer offers other customers contraceptive cover.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how much they're willing to sacrifice to maintain their moral convictions.

quote:
Obamacare will not just allow them not to offer coverage without a massive financial penalty per employee/student.


Isn't that pretty standard Denise, if you blatantly disregard the law you have to face the consequences? Students however aren't included in the health care law, it covers employees only, so the universities are free to withdraw the health care costs and allow the students to arrange their own cover.

quote:
that really bad law that nobody read,


I read the bill Denise and sorry, but I'm not buying for one minute that the Catholic organisations didn't read it. Any organisation that could be adversely affected by the law would have been all over it with a fine tooth comb - if they didn't read it then, frankly, they're just plain dimwits.

.
Denise
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52 posted 03-11-2012 11:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The legislators who voted it into law didn't read it, Grinch. It doesn't matter if the Catholic organizations read it thoroughly or not. This is a NEW mandate handed down by Sebelius (powers given to her under the law), a mandate that Obama explicitly told the Catholic organizations would NOT be placed upon them when he was seeking their support, a mandate that wasn't in the original law. He lied. (Joe Wilson was right afterall). And they can just keep 'growing' this law with more mandates as time goes on given the way the law is written.

I doubt they will comply. They've already said they will have to close their schools, hospitals and other social service organizations rather than be forced to comply with what they consider an immoral law. The fines and penalties for non-complinace would bankrupt them anyway if they didn't voluntarily close. It will be society's loss when they do.

Denise
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53 posted 03-13-2012 12:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

OMG! As bad as I knew it was, it's even worse. The Department of Health and Human Services has released finalized rules regarding the individual mandate. Everyone with a government approved health plan that includes elective abortion coverage (which everyone will have to have or face steep IRS penalities) will also have to pay an additional $1 per month surcharge to exclusively fund elective abortions....no opt-out clause, no conscience clause.

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/03/12/obama-admin-finalizes-rules-1-abortions-in-obamacare/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lifenews%2Fnewsfeed+%28LifeNews. com%29

Grinch
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54 posted 03-13-2012 02:36 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Everyone with a government approved health plan that includes elective abortion coverage (which everyone will have to have or face steep IRS penalities) will also have to pay an additional $1 per month surcharge to exclusively fund elective abortions....no opt-out clause, no conscience clause.


The only problem I can see with this Denise is that it isnít true.

.
Denise
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55 posted 03-13-2012 05:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No? How is that, Grinch? Are you going to tell me it only refers to the Exchanges and won't also apply to EVERY healtcare plan (which will have to meet government standards) with another stroke of the pen of the DHHS, just like they did with the mandate on the Catholic organizations? That mandate is obviously not limited to the Exchanges but is a mandate on the carrier contracted directly by the organizations.
Denise
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56 posted 03-13-2012 06:14 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Believe me, I hope this article IS wrong, Grinch, I really do. I don't want the government taking everything I own eventually due to non-compliance or throw me in jail for continued non-compliance. I won't pay one red cent to pay for somebody to have an 'elective' abortion.
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57 posted 03-13-2012 06:42 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Did you read the document Denise?
http://www.ofr.gov/OFRUpload/OFRData/2012-06125_PI.pdf

Anyone who reads it will recognise that what you posted is spectacularly incorrect.



quote:
The Department of Health and Human Services has released finalized rules regarding the individual mandate


Thatís technically incorrect. The document contains some parts that are finalised and some interim decisions.

quote:
Everyone with a government approved health plan that includes elective abortion coverage (which everyone will have to have or face steep IRS penalities) will also have to pay an additional $1 per month surcharge to exclusively fund elective abortions


Thatís incorrect too. The new law states that where an individual is receiving a health care subsidy from the federal government and has a policy that covers elective abortion no part of the federally supplied subsidy can be used to pay for that portion of the policy. It goes even further and states that all policies that have elective abortion cover must segregate the payments for every member whether they receive a government subsidy or not to ensure that if their circumstances change no federal money is used for elective abortion. The document also states that elective abortion coverage isnít mandatory so the segregation of charges is only applicable where elective abortion cover is included.

There is no mention of a $1 surcharge, which isnít surprising, even if you could calculate the specific cost of elective abortion coverage today you couldnít guarantee that cost will be the same tomorrow. Writing laws that specific would be dumb Ė which is why legislators donít do it.

quote:
no opt-out clause, no conscience clause.


Wrong again, there will be policies available without elective abortion cover Denise which sounds like a fairly substantial opportunity to Ďopt-outí to me.

.
Denise
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58 posted 03-13-2012 07:23 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I hope your right, Grinch. Why can't the Catholic organizations have policies that honor their consciences then?
Denise
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59 posted 03-13-2012 07:24 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And since the policy through work that I have has coverage for abortion does that mean I will have to pay the surcharge, whatever it turns out to be?
Grinch
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60 posted 03-13-2012 08:15 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Why can't the Catholic organizations have policies that honor their consciences then?


They can. They just choose a policy that doesnít include elective abortions.

quote:
And since the policy through work that I have has coverage for abortion does that mean I will have to pay the surcharge, whatever it turns out to be?


It isnít a surcharge. The new legislation simply says that the portion of your existing policy that goes towards elective abortion must be apportioned and accounted for separately. You wonít be paying any more for elective abortions than youíre already paying.

quote:
I won't pay one red cent to pay for somebody to have an 'elective' abortion.


Actually you will. In fact you probably already have Ė if youíve got health insurance you canít really avoid it.

Even if you have a policy that doesnít include elective abortion the reality is that the health insurance company is taking your money with one hand and paying for abortions on policies that contain abortion coverage with the other.

Itís a shame though that, under the current system, you donít even get the choice to have a policy that doesnít contain elective abortion. At least then your conscience could be slightly clearer. Instead youíre forced to accept the policy chosen by your employer instead of choosing for yourself what is and isnít included in your health care policy.

Someone should complain about that, maybe testify in front of a committee or two, Iím sure everyone would support that idea.

Denise
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61 posted 03-16-2012 06:07 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm checking into the feasibiity of emigrating to Ireland. I hear they actually have freedom of religion over there.
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62 posted 03-16-2012 08:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, you may want to read Trinity by Leon Uris before making that decision. Ireland and religious freedoms don't exactly go hand in hand
Denise
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63 posted 03-16-2012 10:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It sounds like a very good book. It includes the time frame that my great-grandparents left Ireland in the mid to late 1880's, my dad's family from the north from County Tyrone and my mom's family from the south from County Claire. It would be fascinating to read about the kind of world they lived in back then. The religious persecution and class rivalry is pretty much a non-issue nowadays, isn't it? And it is a Constitutional Republic now, so that's a plus.

It's a shame it isn't available for Kindle or Nook. How is the print size? Do you have the hardcover or paperback version? With 894 pages it sounds like it would be pretty tiny in the paperback version.
Denise
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64 posted 03-18-2012 12:43 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't want to purchase the paperback version of the book if the print will be too small for me to read. Did you read the paperback version or the hardcover version, Michael?
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65 posted 03-18-2012 06:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have the paperback version. Read it many years ago. I'll have to check the type size. I had no problem reading it but my eyes were a lot sharper back then!
Denise
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66 posted 03-18-2012 06:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I know what you mean, Michael. I keep asking my husband why all the printing on everything is continually getting smaller? lol!

I have a great magnifying glass to read the small print on over-the-counter cold remedies, cooking directions on packages and such (today I even needed it to verify the amount due on a bill even with my maximum strength reading glasses on!) but that doesn't work too well when trying to read something like a book! (I know, I've tried).  
 
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