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Passions in Poetry

The Race(ism) is on...get used to it!

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Balladeer
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25 posted 01-21-2012 05:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

There is obviously more to that than meets the eye, perhaps the study hours of the students. To have students skip classes to work at the school would certainly not be allowed by the school or the clerical office, unless the hours coincided with the free time of the student. That's only logical.
Interesting how you validate the title of this thread..
After school, while the rich kids are at football practice, piano lessons or chilling out at the mall the poor kids are slaving away up to their elbows in blocked toilets and HVAC maintenance?

should poor kids be in lessons during the afternoon with the rich kids or should they be 'greeting' visitors, cleaning up puke and fixing the heating system?


Yes, you claim that it is "elitist" rather than calling it racist but a rose by any other name, since the majority of poor are black or hispanic. You mentioned cleaning up puke twice. Is there some outbreak of puke in the school system going on I'm not aware of? Believe it or not, I went through 4 years of high school without seeing a pile of puke to be picked up. Guess I got lucky. You really don't have to go to such an extreme non-event to try to prove a point. The fact that you do is telling.

unless he's planning to extend the school day Gingrich is going  to force the poor kids to work at some point between 12:00 and 15:35.

You had corrected me in another thread by telling me that the president could not arrest someone for marijuana use. Please tell me how Gingrich is going to be able to force poor kids to work. I'd like to know that one.

I confess I have seen a lot of threads here that have made me shake my head in disbelief but this one really ranks way up there. Form a man stating that it would be a good idea for students to take on jobs to (1) make extra money and (2) to learn about responsibility and the business world, look what we get.

Bob claiming that the comments are racist.
You claiming that the comments are not racist, but elitest.
Class warfare
Child labor laws
stripping children of the hard won protections of their childhood
Exploiting children
Putting children in unsafe working conditions

and the list goes on........amazing stuff. It would make a great SNL skit.

LIBRARIAN: Billy, would you like a job after school replacing returned books to the shelves and doing odd jobs?

BILLY: Why are you asking me that? Haven't you heard of child labor laws?

LIBRARIAN: But, Billy, it doesn't break the law and it would give you a chance to make a little spending money.

BILLY:  and what about the unsafe conditions? What if a book falls on my head? What if my foot gets run over by a cart and I'll have a limp for the rest of my life? Did you ever think about that?

LIBRARIAN: Ok, I'm sorry, Billy. I thought perhaps you could use the extra money. No offense intended.

BILLY: Oh, yeah? Why didn't you off the job to the rich kids, let them have a chance to get maimed for life?

LIBRARIAN: Well, actually, I did offer them the job but they didn't want it.

BILLY: See? You say you care about the poor like me but you offer the job to the rich kids first! You only come to the poor black kids with jobs the rich kids don't want. You want me to give up my quality time with my Nintendo and Xbox for a few lousy bucks?

LIBRARIAN: Billy, I'm sorry. I was just offering you a job. I didn't mean to offend you. I'm sorry you feel that way.

BILLY: Oh, what the heck. I'll just be one more exploited poor person...but I ain't cleaning up no piles of puke!

LIBRARIAN: I don't think you have to worry about that, Billy.

BILLY: I'll start tomorrow. Today I have to help my  8 year old friend Mary, who got busted for selling 5 cent a glass lemonade without a license. What's this world coming to, anyway?????
Balladeer
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26 posted 01-21-2012 05:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I could also do a reverse skit, where the poor student is making a case for getting part-time work but the school telling him that they are not allowed to help only those who need it and are giving the jobs to the rich kids, too, to make it fair that they are offering jobs to ALL students, so no grinch might scream foul. The student would, of course, scream that the system is only interested in favoring the rich and the poor don't have a chance in the system. The school system would be accused of being republicans, and the democrats would all speak in defense of the poor student.  
Grinch
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27 posted 01-21-2012 06:56 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


You could waste your time, and mine, with SNL type skits Mike or you could discuss the points raised.
'Why only poor kids?' Would be a good start, when I raised the point earlier as evidence that Gingrich's idea was elitist you avoided the issue, now you seem to be trying to ridicule it without actually addressing it or the evidence.

If Obama suggested that rich kids should clean toilets some people would be screaming 'class warfare' at the top of their voice but the other way around doesn't seem to raise an eyebrow - odd that.

quote:
Yes, you claim that it is "elitist" rather than calling it racist but a rose by any other name, since the majority of poor are black or hispanic.


That's a common misconception Mike invented by racists and repeated by people who should know better. In fact the majority of people below the poverty line in the US are white - the total is 46.2 million and the number of whites living under the poverty line is 31.6 million.

Fortunately, I knew that. Which is why I insisted that Gingrich's idea wasn't racist and why your claim that it's a rose by any other name doesn't hold water.

quote:
Please tell me how Gingrich is going to be able to force poor kids to work. I'd like to know that one.


Good Point, in fact I'd like to know the answer to that one too. One minute Gingrich claims that poor kids don't have a work ethic, that they have no concept of turning up every Monday morning, that they don't understand the notion that they can do stuff and get money for it - unless it's illegal. Then in the next breath, Gingrich is claiming that he's going to get them to all work afternoons as janitors.

Maybe he was just lying, now that's something he has a history of doing.

Balladeer
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28 posted 01-21-2012 10:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Skit is not a waste of my time. It reflects how I feel about the topic - a joke. If it wastes your time, then the obvious reply is - don't read it.

For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would be upset about the work program favoring the poor. I would think every democrat, all the way up to Obama-san would applaud it. After all, that falls in to what they claim is their way of thinking - helping the poor, distributing the wealth, taking away from the haves. If Gingrich were to talk about giving the jobs to the haves, then the have-nots and their supporters would be screaming bloody murder that they were being left out. What is your problem with the poor and/or needy getting the jobs? I don't understand your complaint but, then again, I don't understand your complaint about being against anyone getting the jobs.
Balladeer
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29 posted 01-21-2012 10:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

While he speaks about the advantages of making good workers of children for the advantage of the system, he does nothing about talking about making sure that our children are protected against work accidents or exploited in potentially high pressure situations physically, emotionally or sexually.

Bob, that's as far as I read with regards to your comment...sorry.
Balladeer
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30 posted 01-21-2012 10:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


The former House speaker argued that children would be an affordable alternative to unionized workers - and that "they'd be getting money, which is a good thing if you're poor."

"New York City pays their janitors an absurd amount of money because of the union," Gingrich said. "You could take one janitor and hire 30-some kids to work in the school for the price of one janitor, and those 30 kids would be a lot less likely to drop out. They would actually have money in their pocket. They'd learn to show up for work. They could do light janitorial duty. They could work in the cafeteria. They could work in the front office. They could work in the library."

"They'd be getting money, which is a good thing if you're poor," he added. "Only the elites despise earning money."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57359900-503544/gingrich-my-position-should-not-offend-blacks/
Bob K
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31 posted 01-21-2012 11:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     To insist that most poor people are people of color or are hispanic might or might not be considered racist.  That is open to dispute.  That it is literally ignorant  is not.  That Mike might not have the facts at his fingertips is understandable; Mike is a trusting guy.  For a Ph.D. taking responsibility for a policy statement in a Presidential campaign shows exactly the sort of untrustworthy information and leadership one might expect from Dr. Gingrich.  His statements are inflammatory and offer exploitive solutions at the expense of the defenseless and powerless among us.  For those that admire this sort of behavior, he is the perfect candidate, and I suggest that they campaign for him loudly in exactly the tone they use here in front of all their independent friends, using exactly the same arguments they offer here, with no modification at all.

     I believe that such statements may work very well within conservative circles to work up the feelings of other conservatives


1/21/12

     The radical right is trying to figure out how to deal with nominating a candidate for the Republican nomination.  That much is the business of the Republican party and its various constituent pieces.  My own affiliation is Democratic, and as far as I’m concerned this is all to the good for the chances my own party has in the election.  The debate that Dr. Gingrich is offering for public consumption is one that I hope gets wide publicity.  The belief that Dr. Gingrich seems to have that the American public wants to steal the protections of childhood from the children of the poor is one that I believe is one that absolutely should be tested in the cauldron of an election.  The suggestion that the children of the poor should have their childhoods stolen from them while the children of the rich should be encouraged to have safe and protected childhoods is one that I believe would cause the sentiments of everybody who has every read Charles Dickens to indulge in a spontaneous fit of projectile vomiting.  Many Americans other than Dr. Gingrich and his friends have a fairly solid history of cherishing the notion of childhood as a special time and place.  If it is not one in fact, many of us believe it should be one, and strive to help make it so.  We regard this as an ethical, moral and often a religious obligation.   To have Republicans take a position against such a set of traditional American values is not in the least surprising for those of us who have listened to the varieties of positions advocated by the radical right over the past hundred years, during which time the right has fought tooth and nail against — among other things — child labor laws.  For Dr. Gingrich, this latest provocation to decency is more of the same.

     While few people would defend the wonders of the foster-care system, for example, very few indeed would go so far as to advocate bringing back a system of orphanages to replace it.  Sign Dr. Gingrich up among them.

     To have such a position as the death of the child labor laws advocated so publicly, however, seems to me to be a bit new.  To have it advocated in front of Independent voters whose notions about the actual goals of the Republicans may have been swayed by some of the phony election year republican propaganda about constitutionality, freedom and wanting what’s right for the country, however, seems to me to be a little bit risky.  The actual motives, running more accurately to Arbeit Macht Frei, work camps and exploitation to the point of slave labor seem to be coming a bit too close to the surface; and some if not many of the independent voters cannot help but notice.  Most of them pride themselves on being called “Independents” because they aren’t good at taking marching orders.  

     One cannot help but wonder whether the exploited children themselves will believe they are benefiting, when the Republicans will have to either break the existing law to put the little kids to work, or change the laws designed to protect children from exploitation in order to do so.  I, for one, will make a point of keeping these facts in front of any and all independent voters I know.

     I, for one, will keep reminding anybody who will listen that I have asked that the actual facts of the matters under discussion be dealt with, and that at every turn the facts I have raised  have been ignored in favor of childish jibes.  Were the jibes an attempt to lessen the tension while dealing with this cynical recommendation of economic and emotional exploitation of children, I might let them pass.  Offer me evidence they are so now, and I will let them pass now.

     In the meantime,children deserve better from adults who are supposed to be responsible for protecting them.
Bob K
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32 posted 01-21-2012 11:21 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     If you were sorry, you'd take your fingers out of your ears, open your eyes, and deal with the legitimate criticism.  Or you'd at least read far enough to be able to talk about why you thought it wasn't legitimate.

     Adults have responsibilities to children.  As a cop, you'll have had to enforce them from time to time.  Were they wrong before?  Are you saying those laws are wrong now?  Tell me which ones.  Tell me why.

     Are you in favor of exploiting child labor or aren't you?  You know Gingrich is advocating exploitation of child labor, because he's said so, and he's said it's a good thing.  

     Are you or aren't you in favor of exploitation of child labor?  That's pretty straightforward, isn't it?  And how do you talk to your  police friends about this?

     My point?

     My point is that Gingrich is advocating breaking the law.  The law is there to protect children.

     The law already allows exceptions for children old enough to work without having it destroy their childhoods and under well supervised and safe working conditions.  

     Where are Gingrich's caveats that support anything like these exceptions?

     I have seen none.  I am more than willing to look at any that you're willing to point out, and you should be thrilled to show them to me, shouldn't you, since such things would certainly go some way in undermining my case, such as it is.

Bob K
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33 posted 01-22-2012 12:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     "Only the elites despise earning money?"


     Well, count me in.  I certainly don't despise every means of earning money, mind you, because I've earned some in my time doing things from janitorial work to putting together power sources, do teaching poetry to schizophrenics and to adolescents in an alternative school to doing group, family and individual therapy and doing social work in a VA:  And also drug and alcohol adicts with other psychiatric problems that complicated the clinical picture.  I also publish the occasional poem.  I've never minded money for any of these activities, nor for working with developmentally delayed folks.

    Most of my favorite folks have been crazy or retarded, and none of them ever talk about Elites.  Only Republicans talk about Elites.  Newt Gingrich talks about Elites.  He's worth how much money?  He's got what, a Ph.D.?  He's running for what, Dog-catcher?  His constituency is what, white, older, and richer?

     That must make him somebody's poor and shabby uncle, right?

     I do despise pimps, however, and there are a lot of other occupations I despise that earn good money, including occupations that exploit children.  And if you think you have to be some hoity toity nose in the air do gooder to be one of them, I'm proud to sign up for that partticular list.  I'm anti-pimp, anti-destroyer of childhoods, anti-exploiter of nine year olds and pro supporter of child labor laws.

     Furthermore, I'll want to know where you are when it comes time to sign up on that list, and why in heaven's name you think there would be something wrong with hating child molesters, pimps, and people who make money from ripping the heart out of the childhood of some kid who doesn't know enough how to protect him or herself against the kind of monster who'd be cruel enough to be willing to make a dime on doing so without a second thought, and who'd even try to make some sort of feeble case about it being for the kid's own good.

     Some money shouldn't be earned, and should brand the hand of whoever tries to pick it up.

     That's what this bleeding heart do gooder thinks.

     Since you thought the inference was worth making, I thought the inference was worth an explicit response.

     And it is addressed to the very notion that there might be something "elite" about hating activities that exploit childhood and children in any way at all.  It should come from something drilled into the soul of every adult human being:  The need to protect not only children, but their childhood as well.
Huan Yi
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34 posted 01-22-2012 12:23 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What happens if the janitorial positions Gingrich talks about are taken by Asian
Americans who manage to get top grades as well?


I’ve paid a little more attention to Mitt recently
and think he is limited by his sense of decency.
Newt isn’t.

I also noticed that some columnist criticized Mitt
as being the whitest candidate running for the nomination in a long time.

.
Bob K
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35 posted 01-22-2012 12:24 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Are they children?
Huan Yi
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36 posted 01-22-2012 12:55 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Who are children?

By some measure
it's up to age 26. . .
by which time
I had been to Vietnam
and graduated from university
on the GI Bill and was pursuing a career.


PS:  I had my first job at 13
I went through high school
while working 40 to +50 hour weeks
cooking chickens and swabbing greasy floors
as my immigrant parents couldn’t afford me
an allowance.  I learned the value of work
and money.  I was not unique.


.
,
Huan Yi
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37 posted 01-22-2012 01:14 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There is a limit to white guilt . . .

For many having voted, (in George Will’s estimate),
for the least qualified candidate in living memory is it


.
Balladeer
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38 posted 01-22-2012 09:41 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Huan, were you aware, at 13, that your childhood was being ripped out of you and you were being exploited while you were working. Did you feel your life was in danger and you were running the risk of being maimed for life due to unsafe surroundings.....or were you happy to have the job, being able to bring much-needed revenue into the family? Just askin'..
Grinch
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39 posted 01-22-2012 11:13 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
What is your problem with the poor and/or needy getting the jobs?


It's simple Mike and can be summed up in one word - equality. As soon as you start to treat one group of people differently to another group of people you create discontent and friction and the only way to describe it is by sticking an 'ism' on the end of whatever qualifier distinguishes the two groups.

Some people insist that the qualifier is race, but Gingrich was careful to say poor kids and as I've pointed out there are more white poor kids than there are black so the qualifier here isn't race, it's class.

I've already stated I'd be against Gingrich's idea if it were aimed at rich kids but not because they'd be getting something that the poor kids weren't, I'd be against it because, I believe, they'd be losing something. As I see it that's the major difference between us, you see Gingrich's idea as giving something and I see it as taking something away. It doesn't really matter which one of us is right in that regard though, either way they obviously aren't being treated equally.

So would both all kids working part time be a better idea? I'd say an unequivocal yes but not during school time. If Gingrich was proposing re-igniting something like the scout movement and bob-a-job week outside school hours I'd be all for it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15350640

Ironically an idea like that would have to come from the Republicans because if Obama or the Dems suggested it there'd be more references to the Hitler Youth than you could shake a stick at.

“So when I’m President, I will set a goal for all American middle and high school students to perform 50 hours of service a year, and for all college students to perform 100 hours of service a year. This means that by the time you graduate college, you’ll have done 17 weeks of service.”

– Barack Obama, July 2, 2008, Colorado Springs

Am I worried that little Tom, Dick or Harriet might get hurt? Not one little bit, I'm a firm believer in the adage that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and that kids need to be taught to learn and they don't do that while wrapped in cotton wool.
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40 posted 01-22-2012 01:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, yes, equality - that thing that dictates ninety year old great-grandmothers get patted down so that no specific group will feel slighted. I take it, then, that you are against anything the government does that favors one group over another?

Btw, how is that plan of Obama's working out?
Bob K
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41 posted 01-22-2012 02:21 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

[Edited - Ron ]

[This message has been edited by Ron (01-22-2012 05:56 PM).]

Grinch
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42 posted 01-22-2012 02:30 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Ah, yes, equality - that thing that dictates ninety year old great-grandmothers get patted down so that no specific group will feel slighted.


Yes that's thing I'm talking about Mike, I'd prefer it that nobody got patted down but if it's going to be done it should apply to everyone. I'd be willing to change my mind of course if you can guarantee that there's absolutely no possibility of a ninety year old knowingly or unknowingly carrying an explosive device, blade or firearm onto a plane.

quote:
I take it, then, that you are against anything the government does that favors one group over another?


Pretty much - yes.

quote:
Btw, how is that plan of Obama's working out?


It was shot down in flames by a bunch of short-sighted idiots who've decided that anything Obama suggests is automatically a radical Marxist, socialist, Maoist, communist plot to destroy America.

.
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43 posted 01-22-2012 02:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Poor guy. The oval office, senate and House under democratic control and they still couldn't do what they wanted...except for health care and a few other little things. There oughta be a law....
Bob K
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44 posted 01-22-2012 03:28 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

[Edited - Ron ]

[This message has been edited by Ron (01-22-2012 06:01 PM).]

Grinch
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45 posted 01-22-2012 03:39 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Mike,

If Gingrich suggested that every kid should work in their local community for at least an hour a week outside school hours would you support the idea?

.
Balladeer
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46 posted 01-22-2012 08:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting question... I really don't know. It doesn't seem like a bad idea but I don't know what kind of connection you are trying to make. It is, however, a good example of how absolutes don't work with every situation. There is a big difference between volunteer work and work one is getting paid for. The volunteeer work could be viewed by those who don't want to do it as a punishment. The job work would be viewed as an opportunity by  those willing to participate and would not be mandatory for those not wishing to do it.

For you to claim that anything the government does must be done on an equality basis is unrealistic, at best. It also means you would be against things like food stamps, higher taxes for the rich, college loans and anything the government deems to be done on a "need" basis. It would go against a whole lotta Obama programs...along with programs from earlier presidents, not to mention government housing and more things than I could list here.

I find it interesting that people who would scream about the "unneedy" rich getting the same benefits from government programs as the poor would also would scream about the poor getting the benefits of part-time jobs over the rich. If that makes sense, I don't know what it is.
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47 posted 01-23-2012 12:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Following a controversy over language that appeared on Barack Obama’s official website suggesting that Americans would be mandated to complete up to 100 hours of community service as part of a national service program, the original text has been memory-holed and replaced with a more sanitized version.

Despite numerous bloggers picking up on the switch, along with screenshots from before and after proving the language was changed, mesmerized Obama supporters are still claiming that that detractors had invented the language and that the website had not been altered.

The text from Obama’s change.gov website, which went online shortly after the election result, originally appeared as follows (emphasis mine).

    Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.

The text was changed at some point on Friday afternoon/evening to the following (emphasis mine).

    Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.

http://www.infowars.com/obama-website-scrubs-mandatory-community-service-call/

hmmm....short-sighted idiots indeed
Ron
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48 posted 01-23-2012 10:10 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Wow, Mike, you mean Obama suggested that people actually be required to serve their country? And up to a 100 hours a year? That seems a little extreme.

Oh, wait. When you and I were that age, I think the requirement was more in the neighborhood of two years?

I have no doubt, Mike, that you're right: Obama's original intention was to require community service of all teen and young adult Americans. I suspect he wanted to not only help the communities across the nation, but also instill a sense of responsibility that is sadly lacking in much of our citizenry today. Personally, I think such a plan would be as dangerous in America as it was in Nazi Germany, not because of evil intent, but simply because some things can't be safely legislated.

I've always believed that civic responsibility, much like the work ethic discussed earlier, should be taught in the home, not in the school and certainly not mandated by government. Unfortunately, that isn't happening in this country very much any more. And, in large part because it isn't happening, Obama no doubt abandoned his plan when he realized it would never fly in a land currently more interested in bread and circuses.

In my opinion, it was a valiant -- if misguided -- attempt to help correct a basic flaw in our current national character. It was meant as a signal, I think, that we need to return to a time when we helped ourselves by helping each other -- instead of expecting Government to do everything for us.

I would hope the irony of trying to pass laws to make that happen wasn't lost on any of our current hoard of politicians. Obama included.

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49 posted 01-23-2012 11:46 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bravo, Ron. I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you said.

 
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