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New Year....Same Obama

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Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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25 posted 01-08-2012 07:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Yes, I'm upset as well.

     I'm not necessarily upset that the two branches are in conflict, mind you, because legitimate conflicts can happen and do need to get worked out.  My upset in this case is that the conflict is spurious, and seems to be for appearances only.

     I had no idea that the WSJ editorial was restricted on your end, since I have no difficulty in pulling it up here on mine, and I have no subscription to that Journal.  I was able to google the article and reference it that way.  I wouldn't have referenced the pesky thing had I known that others wouldn't have been able to read it.  I am very sorry.

     Perhaps somebody with better computer research skills than mine might be able to offer a solution?  I think the editorial ought to be available; even though I don't like the political orientation, it has some solid points to make on the issue and they ought to be more widely available for conservatives who might agree and for liberals who might appreciate a well argued point of view from the political opposition.

     Uh, Mike if I'm wrong, I'll accept your word on the fact.  Short of that, my memory says that you supported the Bush recess appointment of Bolton without a problem, though I was upset by it at the time.  My upset continues here with President Obama's recess appointments, while you have realized that the attempts to keep the congress in technical session really do have some point to them, and we are no longer living in the 18th century when it was important to be able to fill these posts and the time it took to get the congress and especially the Senate back into session could sometimes amount to months and not days or hours.  Horseback, as opposed to airplanes.

     Should you wish to talk about your own personal thoughts and feelings about the subject, I suspect they would be edited out.  Why you would ask me to go into detail about them seems a bit of a puzzle, since anybody can check the record if they wish, and if I go into any sort of personal pursuit of that sort it seems likely I will have it edited out as well.

     My position on recess appointments has remained pretty much consistent.  I don't like them.

     It isn't bad to try to justify  one's party's position, even if one's party's position  changes, as both of ours have done here.  Such tenacity shows party loyalty and many other laudable qualities.  It's simply that, in this situation, I'm too much of a blockhead to do so, and I think that The President is acting for other than the reasons that you've suggested.

     You may even be more accurate in your analysis for the reasons for these recess appointments than I am, as I've said before.  It just that I tend to like my own explanations a bit more because it explains The President's attempts to deal with his weakness within his own party during what is, after all, the primary season, when he has time more or less undisturbed to do exactly that.  The Republicans are busy fighting Republicans right now, and he can use that time to consolidate as best he can.

     He may not be all that great at governing, but he is formidable indeed as a campaigner; and he may be very good at helping turn the tide a bit on the legislative level.  That may depend on what the economy does over the next several months, and how the Republicans respond to that.

     I'm interested to hear on Mike's thoughts and on anybody else's thoughts on that, and I'm interested in seeing what sort of thinking we can all develop together as the campaign goes on.
Bob K
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26 posted 01-08-2012 07:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

This was originally a repost of the above;  now, of course, it's not.
Klassy Lassy
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27 posted 01-09-2012 02:02 AM       View Profile for Klassy Lassy   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Klassy Lassy

Thanks, Michael, for posting this.  Figuring out the strategy of the various componets of our government makes me feel stupid, but in this forum, at least I get different points of view to consider and sometimes a clue as to how politicians manipulate.  

The one thing I do realize is that ignorance is not bliss, and it's being made evident everyday.  Nothing is as it seems on the surface...and whether or not someone is going to tell me it's woman's intuition, what's rotten is beginning to really stink!  So what's to trust here?  Not a lot and privileges Americans have shared in the past are being taken from them... as you say the list is growing.  
Balladeer
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28 posted 01-09-2012 07:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

  Why you would ask me to go into detail about them seems a bit of a puzzle, since anybody can check the record if they wish

Well, Bob, it should be no puzzle. You made the statement so it would be appropriate for you to offer the reference, if called on to do so. I seem to recall you asking for proof on comments I have made in the past....and appropriately so.

To be truthful I don't recall making any comment about Bolton, nor do I recall it being important enough to comment on. That doesn't mean I didn't, since we post thousands of replies here in the Alley and it's not always easy to keep track of them. That's why I asked for clarification on something you claimed happened. Now you change it to "my memory says that" and I can accept that conditional avenue.

Balladeer
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29 posted 01-09-2012 07:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


     He may not be all that great at governing, but he is formidable indeed as a campaigner; and he may be very good at helping turn the tide a bit on the legislative level.  That may depend on what the economy does over the next several months, and how the Republicans respond to that.


I can assure you that the economy is going to be brilliant over the next few months. The mainstream media will see to that.
Bob K
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30 posted 01-10-2012 03:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



      That's right.  You know, the one that checks their facts on a consistent basis:  The one that the Republicans only complain about when it disagrees with them?  

     Then, when they agree, they make loud crowing noises about?  Yet still quote happily when they agree with the Republican point of view when the facts actually support the republican position, as they sometimes do because Republicans actually voice some decent and appropriate and well taken points of view on occasion.

     It does actually happen.  I know it; and any decent newspaper worth its salt will say so when it's true as well.

     The Wall Street Journal has an excellent editorial piece about the recess appointments just the other day.  They occasionally do good editorial pieces.  They used to do a much hight proportion of good journalism than they do now.  The New York Times is a much more accurate paper on the whole in terms of it's reporting in my opinion, as is  The Washington Post.  

      I believe that The Economist, clearly a conservative publication, is fully as accurate a publication as The New York Times, and is also a Mains Stream publication, while the News in The WSJ is not as accurate on the Whole, though it too is one of the Main Stream Media.  The New York Post, one of The MSM and conservative doesn't seem to be as accurate as The NYT or TWP.

     The Times of London, a Murdoch owned paper, is definitely mainstream media.  It is also right of center, at least slightly, and many people think of it as one of the national Papers of record.

     Mike, the sort of thinking you are voicing never made any sense, and it is a waste of time in terms of the practical pursuit of any  liberal versus conservative discussion, since some respectable publications, some main stream media are already conservative and at least some of them check their facts.  Sadly, they tend to contradict Fox news a fair about of the time or, at a minimum, they tend to contradict the spin Fox news puts on the news and the "facts" that they report.

     That doesn't mean that these and other more journalistically meticulous conservative journals are foolish or liars, though, since they may still be at odds with more liberal publications about facts or the slant of the facts.

     To my mind, it does mean that the readers of the more simplistic conservative publications have simply chosen the Fox News version of events over versions which may be more complex and better researched and better vetted.  And which may, often, be richer, more likely and in the end more accurate.  I am well aware of my use of the word "may" in this last sentence.  I don't intend to try to force my version of reality down anybody's throat, even if I thought such a thing was possible in terms of making a convincing case; or in terms of the way that I see people constructing their own personal views of reality.

     I do hope to be reasonably clear in talking about how I see things and in talking about how basically flawed the notion of mainstream media is in terms of a political discussion.  It in essence suggests that we should rather look for and support media that is essentially incompetent as the source of our information rather than media left or right that functions to standards of at least reasonable skill and competence.

      
Bob K
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31 posted 01-10-2012 03:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     By the way, I really do believe that the issue will depend on how well the economy does and how the Republicans respond to the ups or downs of the economy,

     I thought the comment was actually worth a response.

     Wasn't so long ago that the unemployment rate was 9.3 and you were issuing frequent reminders of that fact, with the number itself featured and with comments about the failure of the Obama recovery plan and shovel ready jobs.  As would have been a good political tactic for following a ampaign argument, whether or not that was your intention

     Over the last couple of months, the figure's fallen somewhat, for whatever reason.  The Washington Post says it's down to 8.5.  I think iut's too early to say that it';s headed downward in any firm fashion, and Senator Santorum the other day on TV said that he thought that the reason for that was because the public was anticipating a Republican win.  So there can be all sorts of hysterican tricks played with the number by everybody.  Hopefully, the Democrats have enough sense not to make any claims at all, and let people like the Senator make their case for them, and if the figures turn around then they won't be in a position of having to eat any words.

     I think it was CNN who said that the Democrats were in a position of risking an early peak or a turnaround in the figures before the election.

     These are things that I think are interesting and possible directions for the election to go in.  
Balladeer
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32 posted 01-10-2012 07:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, you know as well as I there are infinite ways to spin a story. The media will spin it the way they want, be it NBC or FOX. Obama spins his own when claiming that the economy is better because of him (which it isn't) and how he has created hundreds of thousands of jobs (which he hasn't). How it is trumpeted by the news is up to them. What page it lands on is also up to them. FOX would bring up facts to disclaim it. Mainstream might simply posts Obama's claim without going into detail...or post details on thousands of jobs created (without going into detail that they were temp jobs for a limited amount of time.

If you want to make the case that media will take the facts and print or broadcast them without bias, you are living in a fantasy world. It doesn't work that way, which I'm sure you know.

Let's see how they carry the resignation of the latest chief of staff. That will make four chiefs of staff since Obama took control...quite amazing, I would say. I'm interesting in see how they will spin it and imagine how the spin would be different if it were a republican president going through so many chiefs of staff. May be interesting....
Bob K
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33 posted 01-11-2012 02:07 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Don't know why the decrease in the unemployment rate.  Might be seasonal, might not.  But I doubt the decline would be from 9.3 to 8.5, personally.  If you think that's the case, of course, you could always say so, just like Rick Santorum said he thought that the cause was the upcoming Republican victory in the fall.

     I'd rather put my money on my I-really-don't-know, but-given-the-.8%-overall-rise-over-the-past-several-months-it-seems-faintly-possible-that-there-may-be-a-recovery-of -sorts-going-on scenario, though, because it suggests something decent for the country and not simply for my party.  The Democrats would still have to win the election, you know.

     The number of thrilled Republicans would probably be limited to the actual number of Republicans, I suspect and perhaps some Independents; unlikely enough to generate an economic uptick to my mind.  I think the uptick would have to come first.

     I'd like to hear an actual estimate of exactly how much of that .8 % you believe would be a result of the Christmas sales this year.  More than last year's?  Wouldn't there have had to be a larger than usual uptick in Christmas spending to account for a large part-time hiring bonanza for the economy?  You're the one suggesting it, aren't you?  Doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm willing to be convinced with some decent facts.

     The Democrats aren't advertising it anyway, near as I can tell.  The increase seems fragile, and if it collapses after it's been campaigned on, it's a large potential trap; the same way, I think, in reverse,  the criticisms you're toying with making may be as well if the increase in employment turns out to have any sort of stability to it.

     I haven't kept track of Republican chiefs of staff, truth be told.  I have no idea if the number of chiefs of staff that a president has says anything about the President's ability or not, and how that works.  I seem to recall that Lincoln, for example, went through a great number of commanding Generals for the Grand Army of the Republic before he settled on Grant.  I would really hate to think that your example about President Obama extended to President Lincoln, another great Republican President by some measures, whom many people criticized very harshly for being aggressively pro-civil liberties, while other people criticized him for being savagely any civil liberties.

     You may remember that I've always suggested that Our current President was a closet Republican?  And of course many have suggested that Lincoln would never have been elected by a modern day Republican party to even an office modest as that of a dog catcher.

     At any rate, he certainly went through quite a few of those all important military posts, and his contemporaries were often at least as critical of his competence as ours are of President Obama.  I do wish that President Obama has as much spine as that first Republican President, though.

    
 
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