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Fast and Furious DoubleTalk

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Balladeer
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0 posted 11-09-2011 11:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Eric Holder Testifies Republicans To Blame For Fast And Furious
by Ulsterman on November 8, 2011

Even by the often bombastic standards of duplicity that is the Obama administration, the Eric Holder testimony given before the Senate Judiciary Committee today sets a new standard of multiple misrepresentation of fact. What the nation saw – those who took the time to watch, was the Attorney General of the United States going on record and blaming Republicans in the House of Representatives for an operation that was initiated by, and for, the Obama administration. Holder also gave yet another strong push for enhanced federal gun control laws – a direct attempt to weaken the 2nd Amendment by using the tragedy and chaos created by the Obama Fast and Furious program as justification for those much stronger gun control measures.
How can the Attorney General say that one political party, that itself controls only a part of Congress, and has no control over the Obama Executive Branch, is somehow more responsible for an Executive Branch program like Fast and Furious that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of Mexican civilians and at least two American law enforcement agents? A program that saw the Obama Executive Branch directly involved in placing thousands of deadly assault weapons into the hands of known drug cartel criminals?
http://theulstermanreport.com/2011/11/08/eric-holder-testifies-republicans-to-blame-for-fast-and-furious/


It's going to be VERY interesting to see how they spin this one!
Bob K
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1 posted 11-10-2011 06:02 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

http://ulster-man.blogspot.com/

http://writing.wikinut.com/The-Ulsterman-Report%3B/1t187u91/
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Interesting!!! I know that it sounds so ridiculous that it's hard to believe. Let's see if this is a ficticious one or not. Thanks, Bob
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3 posted 11-12-2011 08:09 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Testifying before an intensely partisan Senate Judiciary Committee hearing yesterday, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder only deepened suspicions about the Department of Justice’s possible criminal involvement in a gunwalking operation known as Operation Fast and Furious. The scheme saw the federal government provide more than 2,000 firearms to Mexico’s Sinaloa drug cartel.
Holder presented the improbable case that he was not responsible for — or even aware of — the plot:

"I have ultimate responsibility for that which happens in the Department, but I cannot be expected to know the details for every operation that is ongoing in the Justice Department on a day-to-day basis. I did not know about Fast and Furious as is indicated in the chart that you have up there until I guess, well, until it became public."

Operation Fast and Furious was run primarily by the DOJ, but involved Obama administration officials spread across four Cabinet-level departments, and included direct links to the White House’s National Security Council.
Attorney General Holder’s claim that he was ignorant of one of the most deadly political scandals in U.S. history, which was run out of his department with key input and the understanding of his top lieutenants, is simply not credible.
Holder used his opening statement to shift the blame to the American gun dealers — whom his Department forced to supply weapons to the cartels — and Congress:
“Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops,” Holder’s written testimony declares. “Providing law enforcement with the tools to detect and disrupt illegal gun trafficking is entirely consistent with the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens and it is critical to addressing the public safety crisis on the Southwest border.”
It took considerable gall for Holder to make that allegation against Congress: the long-gun reporting requirement he mentioned was suggested by the Department of Justice to combat a problem that they had created with Operation Fast and Furious.

As contentious as the hearing became between Holder and several of the minority Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Senate’s majority Democrats were almost seditiously uninterested in finding out anything about the plot.
Senators Diane Feinstein (D-CA) and Chuck Schumer (D-NY) dishonestly claimed that the plot was an extension of the Bush-era Operation Wide Receiver. It most decidedly was not, and Holder himself refuted that connection.
Judiciary Committee Chairman Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and Feinstein argued that the plot — in which the government forced firearms dealers to give weapons to criminals — justified more gun-control laws.
And in a surreal moment, Senator Al Franken (D-MN) decided the occasion was a wonderful time to discuss the bullying of gay schoolchildren.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/holder-plays-dumb-dems-push-gun-control/?singlepage=true


hmmm....looks like maybe Ulstermann knew what they were talking about.
Uncas
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quote:
hmmm....looks like maybe Ulstermann knew what they were talking about.


Not from what I've read.

quote:
Eric Holder Testifies Republicans To Blame For Fast And Furious
by Ulsterman on November 8, 2011


This is an out and out lie Mike and it isn't particularly hard to prove, all you need to do is listen to, or read, Holder's testimony.

.
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Eric Holder Testifies Republicans To Blame For Fast And Furious
by Ulsterman on November 8, 2011
- Ulsterman quote


Holder used his opening statement to shift the blame to the American gun dealers — whom his Department forced to supply weapons to the cartels — and Congress:
“Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops,” Holder’s written testimony declares.
- pjmedia quote


Hmmm....blaming it on the  Republican-run House sure sounds like he's blaming it on the Republicans to me, which is what Ulsterman indicated.

Local Rebel
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Unless there is some extra-constitutional way that a Republican majority House vote can create a law all by itself, without that pesky Democratic majority Senate, and ultimately the Kenyanazi Presidents 'barry o' written on it, it would hardly make sense....

But then, pajamas media so rarely does.  But that's no obstacle to a Republican talking point.
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     How about finding some references in magazines or newspapers that most of us can agree have substantial and deserved reputations?  That would be one way around the impasse.  There are conservative magazines, English and American that seem to fit that general profile; and there are also newspapers and magazines that Mike and others have used that they've felt have made some necessary points for them that haven't necessarily been conservative, but have still presented news in a straightforward enough version to be satisfactory for them.  

     If their point of view can't be supported by either unbiased or biased but meticulous sources, then making such assertions might be worth rethinking.

     I don't mean that the assertions made without such support have to be wrong.  I mean that they haven't found adequate support as yet to be considered as more than attempts to smear political opponents.  If there are solid facts, assert those facts.  I want to know about them, even if they are against the interests of my party.  My party can take care of itself.  The truth often needs a bit of advocacy.

     I don't mind coming out against a war in Libya if I believe the facts stack up against it; and I'll consider the facts as presented.  I'll quarrel with people in my party if I think it's necessary.  But I won't do it for stuff from a source I don't believe or that I think doesn't have its facts straight.
Uncas
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quote:
Hmmm....blaming it on the Republican-run House sure sounds like he's blaming it on the Republicans to me


You sound like the majority of the mainstream media Mike, throwing in disclaimers like 'sounds like', 'might', 'could' and 'maybe'.  The question is fairly straightforward, did Holder say that Republicans were responsible for the 'gun walking' operation in his opening statement or not?


quote:
How about finding some references in magazines or newspapers that most of us can agree have substantial and deserved reputations? That would be one way around the impasse.


Or you could just go back to the source Bob - back to what Holder actually said.

.
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Unless there is some extra-constitutional way that a Republican majority House vote can create a law all by itself, without that pesky Democratic majority Senate, and ultimately the Kenyanazi Presidents 'barry o' written on it, it would hardly make sense....

Yep, that's the point. It makes litle sense at all. Of course, Holder claiming he knew nothing about it makes little sense, either. Napolitano claiming she never discussed it with Holder, even after the border agent was killed, makes even less sense. Blaming the House for passing a law makes no sense as well as condemning the House for not passing laws makes none, wither. Little about Holder's actions make sense, with the indisputable fact that anyone with half a brain knows he's been lying, whether they care to acknowledge it or not.


Yes, Bob, shooting the messenger is always an easy thing to do, especially when that messenger is not part of the mainstream media. Believe me, I would be happy to get mainstream's take on it. Problem is, they avoid anything detrimental to the administration like the plague. Imagine, if you will, F&F being conducted by a republican administration. It would be daily front page news, condemning all involved. SInce it's Obama's, it barely gets a mention back on page 30 or something and almost nothing on the nightly news.

Let them start actually covering news as journalists, and I'll be happy to quote them.
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Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops. ....Uncas link

Sounds to me like it's the same thing my " unreliable" links said.

The only thing Holder said about F&F was that it was "flawed"...no details, no definition, no claim of knowledge of it, nothing. The rest of his speech had nothing to do with it and was nothing more than self back patting, especially proud of the administration going after rogue states trying to pass their own immigrations laws to enforce the laws the national government chooses to ignore. When fighting your own states becomes a happy focal point of your accomplishments, you have a problem. It's basically the same statement the administration has been sending out since Obama took over....do it our way and don't cross us or we will either come after you or simply ignore you and not enforce what you feel is in your best interests. Take a bow, Holder.
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quote:


Washington, D.C. ~ Tuesday, November 8, 2011

Chairman Leahy, Ranking Member Grassley, and distinguished members of the Committee. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today.

Over the last three years, I have been privileged to address this Committee on numerous occasions – and to partner with many of you – in advancing the goals and priorities that we share. I am extremely proud of the Department’s historic achievements over the last two years. Despite significant financial constraints, we have effectively confronted a range of national security threats and public safety challenges.

I’m especially pleased to report that our efforts to combat global terrorism have never been stronger. Since I last appeared before this Committee in May – just three days after the decade-long manhunt for Osama bin Laden came to a successful end – the Department has achieved several additional milestones. For example, last month, we secured a conviction against Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab for his role in the attempted bombing of an airplane traveling from Amsterdam to Detroit on Christmas Day 2009. We also worked closely with our domestic and international partners to thwart an attempted plot – allegedly involving elements of the Iranian government – to assassinate the Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the United States on American soil. We have also disrupted numerous alleged plots by homegrown violent extremists – including one targeting a military recruiting center in Washington State and another targeting U.S. soldiers in Texas. Meanwhile, i n one of the most complex counter-intelligence operations in history, we brought down a ring involving 10 Russian spies. And just last week, a federal jury in Manhattan convicted Viktor Bout, one of the world’s most prolific arms dealers, for his efforts to sell millions of dollars-worth of weapons – including 800 surface-to air-missiles and 30,000 AK-47s – for use in killing Americans.

On other fronts, the Department has made extraordinary progress in protecting civil rights, combating financial fraud, safeguarding our environment, and advancing our fight against violent crime. We have filed a record number of criminal civil rights cases. And, in the last fiscal year, our Civil Rights Division’s Voting Section opened more investigations, participated in more cases, and resolved more matters than in any other similar time period in the last dozen years. This section is also immersed in reviewing over 4,500 submissions for review under Section 5, including redistricting plans and other proposed state and local election-law changes that would impact the access some Americans would have to the ballot box.

We’ve also worked to ensure that states do not institute an unconstitutional patchwork of immigration laws. In recent months, the Department has challenged immigration-related laws in several states that directly conflict with the enforcement of federal immigration policies. Not only would these laws divert critical law enforcement resources from the most serious public safety threats, they can lead to potentially discriminatory practices and undermine the vital trust between local jurisdictions and the communities they serve.

The Department also has focused its efforts on the fight against financial fraud over the last two years – by spearheading the interagency Financial Fraud Enforcement Task Force and successfully executing the largest financial and health-care fraud takedowns in history. In addition, we secured a conviction in the biggest bank fraud prosecution in a generation, taking down a nearly $3-billion fraud scheme. And, through our aggressive enforcement of the False Claims Act, a law significantly strengthened in recent years by this Committee, we’ve secured record-setting recoveries that have exceeded $8 billion since January 2009.

I am proud of these – and our many other – achievements. And, I am committed to building on this progress. Although I hope to spend much of our time together discussing the work that’s ongoing throughout the Department, I’d like to take a moment to address the public safety crisis of guns flowing across our border into Mexico – and the local law enforcement operation known as “Fast and Furious” that has brought renewed public attention to this shared national security threat.

I want to be clear: any instance of so-called “gun walking” is unacceptable. Regrettably, this tactic was used as part of Fast and Furious, which was launched to combat gun trafficking and violence on our Southwest Border. This operation was flawed in concept, as well as in execution. And, unfortunately, we will feel its effects for years to come as guns that were lost during this operation continue to show up at crimes scenes both here and in Mexico. This should never have happened. And it must never happen again.

To ensure that it will not, after learning about the allegations raised by ATF agents involved with Fast and Furious, I took action. I asked the Department’s Inspector General to investigate the matter, and I ordered that a directive be sent to the Department’s law enforcement agents and prosecutors stating that such tactics violate Department policy and will not be tolerated. More recently, the new leadership at ATF has implemented reforms to prevent such tactics from being used in the future, including stricter oversight procedures for all significant investigations.

Today, I would like to correct some of the inaccurate – and irresponsible – accusations surrounding Fast and Furious. Some of the overheated rhetoric might lead you to believe that this local, Arizona-based operation was somehow the cause of the epidemic of gun violence in Mexico. In fact, Fast and Furious was a flawed response to, not the cause of, the flow of illegal guns from the United States into Mexico.

As you all know, the trafficking of firearms across our Southwest Border has long been a serious problem – one that has contributed to approximately 40,000 deaths in the last five years. As Senator Feinstein highlighted just last week, of the nearly 94,000 guns that have been recovered and traced in Mexico in recent years, over 64,000 were sourced to the United States.

The mistakes of Operation Fast and Furious, serious though they were, should not deter or distract us from our critical mission to disrupt the dangerous flow of firearms along our Southwest Border. I have supported a number of aggressive, innovative steps to do so and our work has yielded significant successes. We’ve built crime-fighting capacity on both sides of the border by developing new procedures for using evidence gathered in Mexico to prosecute gun traffickers in U.S. courts; by training thousands of Mexican prosecutors and investigators; by successfully fighting to enhance sentencing guidelines for convicted traffickers and straw purchasers; and by pursuing coordinated, multi-district investigations of gun-trafficking rings.

This year alone, we have led successful investigations into the murders of U.S. citizens in Mexico, created new cartel-targeting prosecutorial units, and secured the extradition of 104 defendants wanted by U.S. law enforcement – including the former head of the Tijuana Cartel. This work has undoubtedly saved and improved lives in the United States as well as Mexico. I am personally committed to combating gun trafficking and reducing the alarming rate of violence along the Southwest Border by using effective – and appropriate – tools.

Like each of you, I want to know why and how firearms that should have been under surveillance could wind up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels. But beyond identifying where errors occurred and ensuring that they never occur again, we must be careful not to lose sight of the critical problem that this flawed investigation has highlighted: we are losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico. That means we have a responsibility to act. And, we can start by listening to the agents who serve on the front lines of this battle. Not only did they bring the inappropriate and misguided tactics of Operation Fast and Furious to light, they also sounded the alarm to Congress that they need our help.

ATF agents who testified before a House committee this summer explained that the agency’s ability to stem the flow of guns from the United States into Mexico suffers from a lack of effective enforcement tools. One critical first step should be for Congressional leaders to work with us to provide ATF with the resources and statutory tools it needs to be effective. Another would be for Congress to fully fund our request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking. Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops. Providing law enforcement with the tools to detect and disrupt illegal gun trafficking is entirely consistent with the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens and it is critical to addressing the public safety crisis on the Southwest border.

As someone who has seen the consequences of gun violence firsthand – and who has promised far too many grieving families that I would do everything in my power not only to seek justice on behalf of their loved ones, but also to prevent other families from experiencing similar tragedies – I am determined to ensure that our shared concerns about Operation Fast and Furious lead to more than headline-grabbing Washington “gotcha” games and cynical political point scoring.

We have serious problems to address – and sacred responsibilities to fulfill. We must not lose sight of what’s really at stake here: lives, futures, families, and communities. When it comes to protecting our fellow citizens – and stopping illegal gun trafficking across our Southwest Border – I hope we can engage in a responsible dialogue and work toward common solutions. And, I hope we can begin that discussion today.

I welcome any questions that you have for me.
Eric Holder



There's no blaming or condemning here Mike.  Holder merely points out the tools the ATF says it needs vs the inconsistency of congressional actions toward meeting those goals.  Is there some reason Holder shouldn't point that out?
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Is there some reason why there should NOT be blaming or condemning? The thing was badly run, botched up and people died. Of course, it would be hard for Holder to condemn since he's involved. Much safer to just say, "Let's not waste time laying blame...".

It's all partisan...again. There would have been all kinds of blaming and condemning with a republican at the helm...believe it.

Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles

If that's not blaming, then why did he mention it? Do you think he would have made that statement if it had been a senate vote instead of House?
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quote:
Sounds to me like it's the same thing my " unreliable" links said.


Yes it does 'sound like' that Mike but only if you completely ignore the context of the statement. Fortunately anyone who reads the full statement can see that the claim that Holder tried to blame the Republicans for the 'gun walking' operation isn't true.

.
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14 posted 11-13-2011 09:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, he blamed the House for passing laws which made creating something like Fast and Furious necessary.

Time for a little FOREplay. Hopefully my swing will not be fast and furious today...see ya
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quote:

Like each of you, I want to know why and how firearms that should have been under surveillance could wind up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels. But beyond identifying where errors occurred and ensuring that they never occur again, we must be careful not to lose sight of the critical problem that this flawed investigation has highlighted: we are losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico. That means we have a responsibility to act. And, we can start by listening to the agents who serve on the front lines of this battle. Not only did they bring the inappropriate and misguided tactics of Operation Fast and Furious to light, they also sounded the alarm to Congress that they need our help.

ATF agents who testified before a House committee this summer explained that the agency’s ability to stem the flow of guns from the United States into Mexico suffers from a lack of effective enforcement tools. One critical first step should be for Congressional leaders to work with us to provide ATF with the resources and statutory tools it needs to be effective. Another would be for Congress to fully fund our request for teams of agents to fight gun trafficking. Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles and shotguns in Southwest border gun shops. Providing law enforcement with the tools to detect and disrupt illegal gun trafficking is entirely consistent with the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens and it is critical to addressing the public safety crisis on the Southwest border.



Thats the germane passage Mike, (Unc, too little of it doesn't quite tell the whole truth? just playin with ya...) to try to suggest he's blaming congress is just strawmanning.  Again, isn't it Holder's job to report to Congress the needs of the ATF?  Is there some reason he shouldn't tell the needs of our law enforcement community to congress, and, if he didn't, wouldn't you ( rightly) complain about that?
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quote:
too little of it doesn't quite tell the whole truth?

Doesn't it?

quote:
Unfortunately, earlier this year the House of Representatives actually voted to keep law enforcement in the dark when individuals purchase multiple semi-automatic rifles


I think we'd agree that this is generally true, we could argue the point of whether the outcome of the vote was unfortunate or not but the central point - that the house voted against a bill that would help the ATF - is a verifiable truth.

It only becomes less of a truth when some idiot writes an article claiming that the statement is evidence that Holder blamed the Republicans for the 'gun walking' operation.

Oh!

Almost forgot - here's a bumper sticker slogan for you LR.

The Republicans should be blamed for gun walking!


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17 posted 11-13-2011 10:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The question is...should they be blamed tor gun running and being stupid enough not to put tracking devices in the guns?
Uncas
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18 posted 11-13-2011 11:41 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

quote:
The question is...should they be blamed tor gun running and being stupid enough not to put tracking devices in the guns?


The Republicans?

Yes, if you insist that the Democrats are to blame for 'gun walking' then the Republicans are equally to blame.

.
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Maybe you should double check that last reply, not that your laying it on the right's door surprisesme.
Uncas
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quote:
Maybe you should double check that last reply


I don't need to double check it Mike, I checked the facts twice before I replied.

quote:
not that your laying it on the right's door surprises me


I wasn't laying it at anyone's door Mike I simply pointed out that if the Democrats are to blame for gun walking, as you suggested, then according to your own logic the Republicans are to blame for the gun walking that began in 2006.

.
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21 posted 11-13-2011 01:05 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Imagine, if you will, F&F being conducted by a republican administration. It would be daily front page news, condemning all involved. SInce it's Obama's, it barely gets a mention back on page 30 or something and almost nothing on the nightly news.


We don't need to imagine Mike, gun walking was conducted under a Republican administration.

Was it daily front-page news? Was it even on page 30?

.
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Not ignoring you, uncas, but it's hard to research on my cellphone between shots. Be back later
Uncas
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23 posted 11-13-2011 01:38 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


No rush Mike.

Internet conversations are like postal chess, nobody expects an immediate reply.



Local Rebel
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24 posted 11-13-2011 02:58 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

Yes it does 'sound like' that Mike but only if you completely ignore the context of the statement. Fortunately anyone who reads the full statement can see that the claim that Holder tried to blame the Republicans for the 'gun walking' operation isn't true.



And here you were spot on.  Cherry picking without the anchor of context makes it easy to sell the lie to Mike.  I can't really find the point behind this particular instance though.  It's like the right wing message machine woke up that morning without any prepared material and this was the best cavill they could use to try to keep a focus on the story.  It doesn't 'do' anything to Holder or the administration even if true.  
 
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