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OWS vs Tea Party....signs of the times

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Local Rebel
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0 posted 10-14-2011 02:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

A (sourced) look, side by side, of the OWS (occupy wall street) vs TEA (total economic amnesiacs) Party protests.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2011/10/14/common-clause-occupy-wall-street-vs-the-tea-party-photos.html
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1 posted 10-14-2011 05:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Good link.The signs show the obvious difference between the TEA party and the Outraged White Students. Good work....
Local Rebel
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2 posted 10-14-2011 11:01 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Its nice to think you might be color blind Mike, but fully 25% of the Ows pics feature persons of color, hardly scientific, which should make it all the more credible to the Tea Party.....

But hey, it just doens't get more colorful than this http://www.spinner.com/2011/10/14/bo-diddley-son-arrested-occupy-gainesville/
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3 posted 10-15-2011 12:02 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No doubt you saw the statistics on then breakdown of the occupiers but I don't blame you for acting like you didn't,,,or else maybe you agreed with the occupier spokespereson who said that a good count was difficult  because people kept moving  around. How DARE they!

Bo Didley's son makes it a racially mixed group? Good grief...that's the best you can do? Now, if George Foreman's sons had been arrested, I would agree with you, since they could populate a small city all by themselves.

Read the signs well and you will see very clearly the difference between the two groups. It's not that hard.....really.
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4 posted 10-15-2011 12:15 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

As I said in another thread, I'm not that sorry they are acting that way. There is a large group of independent voters out there, a lot of them being hard-working, decent folks. Every time an OWL get arrested, a conservative gets a vote. For every pile of garbage they leave, a conservative gets a vote. Every time one defecates in public or relieves himself on a police car,a conservative gets a vote. For all of them out of work, Obama loses a vote.

Pelosi, Obama and the democratic talking heads are all praising them, oblivious to the fact that they may be petting a dog that's going to bite their hand off. If the OWL's ever figure out who they SHOULD be targeting, the current administration is in trouble. COuldn't happen to a nicer group of people...
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5 posted 10-15-2011 12:44 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer




A proud OWL in action. Friend of yours, LR?
Bob K
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6 posted 10-15-2011 02:55 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

[Edited - Address the post, Bob, not the poster. - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (10-15-2011 12:06 PM).]

Local Rebel
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7 posted 10-15-2011 03:11 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I never render an opinion on a photograph that isn't sourced Mike, nice try though.  For all we know it was taken in Chile.

quote:


About half of Americans have a favorable opinion of the Occupy Wall Street protests, making the movement about twice as popular as the Tea Party, according to a Time magazine poll released today.

In the poll, 54% of respondents rated the Wall Street protests positively, with 25% saying they had a "very favorable" opinion of them.

In contrast, only 27% of respondents viewed the Tea Party favorably. Thirty-three percent of respondents expressed an unfavorable opinion  including 24% who said they had a "very unfavorable" opinion of the Tea Party.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-13/politics/30274408_1_tea-party-unfavorable-opinion-early-polling




I know its hard to get the horizontal organizational structure -- at least it is for me, but, one thing I can grasp is the open architecture concept of the movement, it doesn't really matter what issue gets you out -  there's an 'app' for that.
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8 posted 10-15-2011 04:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're right, LR. Probably that pic was taken at an Occupy Taco Bell rally. Chile? Please...

You left out a small part of the link about the Popularity contest..

Though the Occupy movement is only one month old, the early polling suggests it� is striking a chord with average Americans. Earlier this week, an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll found that 37% of adults "tend to support" the Occupy movement, with 18% saying they "tend to oppose" them.

To be fair, the Tea Party was, in its early days, far more popular than it is now. A December 2009 NBC/WSJ poll found 41% of Americans felt positively about the nascent Tea Party movement, while 23% held a negative opinion of it.


The Tea Party changed the demographic of congress. What ro you think the OWLs will accomplish?


Bob K
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9 posted 10-15-2011 05:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, you're taking that information you're adding to LR's out of context.

     You present that data as if it meant that there was another poll taken at the same time that suggested that the protesters showed a different and perhaps lower level of popularity.  That may in fact be true, about the levels, but it appears you have the sequence wrong, and that the two polls may well show that there is an increase in popularity at a fairly rapid rate.

     This is difficult to tease out because all the details are not given, but it appears that way.

     Beyond that, and perhaps more to the point, Popularity may have an effect in an election, but we have no election for over a year and we don't have a Republican candidate or even, formally, a Democratic candidate.  You can, with some conviction, say that the Tea Party affected congress for this past term, and I would agree with you.  One question that you haven't asked, and which may have some relevance is this:  Is one of those effects the presence of these demonstrators and the anger they have about what seems to be going on in Congress these days, in part at the behest of the Tea Party?

     If that wasn't part of the subtext of the movement, what reason would there be to run them down, to denigrate them, to make assertions about the demographics about the group on the basis of junk science and unsystematically gathered data, and to try to tie this group in with other groups that the right wing hopes the public as a whole dislikes?  The Brits have a Screaming Looney Party, which many people are rather fond of.  I am for one.  Nobody tries to run them into the ground or treat them cruelly.  

     If the demonstrators were as odd and useless as the right have been painting them, then we'd be having a fine old time here with certified court jesters.  But we're not, are we?

     The right, for all its sarcasm, takes these folks very seriously indeed, and what we folks on the left should be asking ourselves, with equal seriousness, is "why?"

     For all the flaws and problems that these folks have, and certainly they've got to have their fair share, what is it about them that drives the Right into this state of frenzied response and brings out the race-baiting side of them ("They aren't representative of the nation as a whole!"  "They're all whites!" — as though they haven't been trying to actively eliminate blacks from the voting rolls in states like Florida and Ohio for years!) so floridly?  The left needs to give considerable thought about what produces that hysteria on the right, because that is something the Right is very much afraid of.  

     We of the left must make a real point of defining that thing for ourselves, in our own language and in our own terms, and we must not let the right get out in front on this.  No more defining the liberation of women as being a "feminazi;" no more talking about the economic safety net as "entitlements;" no more talking about affordable health care for everybody as "A government takeover."  

     This one we should try to define ourselves.
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10 posted 10-15-2011 05:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

For all the flaws and problems that these folks have, and certainly they've got to have their fair share, what is it about them that drives the Right into this state of frenzied response and brings out the race-baiting side of them ("They aren't representative of the nation as a whole!"  "They're all whites!"

hmmmm...remind you of anything, Bob....like left comments about the Tea Party?? Seems like they said the same thing....but I suppose it's ok when they say it? Seems to me I recollect you tourself making comments about the "racism" of the Tea Party. Am I wrong?

One question that you haven't asked, and which may have some relevance is this:  Is one of those effects the presence of these demonstrators and the anger they have about what seems to be going on in Congress these days, in part at the behest of the Tea Party?

No, actually, it is all because of Obama preaching to the masses the evils of Wall Street and corporations, in order to cover his own butt by pointing fingers somewhere else. That's all it is.

I'll ask again....the Tea Party changed congress. What do you expect the OWLs to accomplish?


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11 posted 10-15-2011 07:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     I don't recollect saying the Tea Party was racist, but the thought had certainly crossed my mind.  The issue to me, however, was not membership — and the tea party has formal membership while the demonstrators do not, so the comparison is flawed to begin with — but the positions that some of the Tea Party folk took on some of the issues.  The younger Congressman Paul was in favor of rolling back the civil rights act and quite a few pieces of civil rights legislation, for example.

     That would allow lots of folks freely to break the rules in the constitution, which he says he upholds.

     Attacks on civil rights protections and racism is not a huge leap.  While I certainly did wonder about it, and about the civil rights implications of tossing folks of the voting rolls for what seemed to me to be less than valid reasons — a Republican position that's been attempted to be put into action any number of times and one that I've never heard a Tea Party member denounce —I don't know that I actually said anything about it in writing.

     And,m since there is no actual party involved with the demonstrators, you'd have to be thinking I'm pretty dumb to try to convince me that a comparison was viable.  Party versus a group of demonstrators which is still working out an agenda, Hmmm?

     Which one shall I treat as a fully formed cohesive party with a platform?

     It appears that your answer is "Both."

     I would have to say that you're trying to get me to take a sucker bet.

     Would I say that the Tea Party is racist?

     I'd say almost everybody is racist, including me at times when I'm not paying attention.  If there's some reason why I'd exclude the Tea Party when I include the Democrats and Republicans and all the rest of the political parties I can think of, I'd be fascinated in hearing why the Tea Party is less racist than anybody else.

     What do I expect the OWL's to do?

      Let's call them OWL's for now.  It's shorter and more punchy, though it offers the illusion of a substance and organization that I haven't seen as yet and which you've pointed out several times.

     I have no idea.

     I don't know that there will be an organization next week, let alone in a year, and I have no idea what their platform might look like.

     A month or two back I heard a radio program that asked for people to write in with ideas for an agenda for a new party to start from scratch.  It was an on-line sort of thing and this may be an outgrowth of that.  I have no idea.  If it is, it could get more organized and more interesting as time goes on, and I don't know what effect it will have on the election.  It could really screw up the voting by fragmenting the votes or it  could help unify it around a more centrist candidate.  It could move the election left or right, depending on the reaction to this reaction looks like.

     The race is too soon to call.  I suspect you probably think the same, though who knows.  They've opened us the possibilities to my mind rather than closed them down.
Local Rebel
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12 posted 10-15-2011 08:20 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I proudly admit to calling it what it is
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/001997-3.html#68

But we still can't be sure about the origin of Mike's photo because he wants us to believe that all the OWS are white and that this picture is of an OWS protester.  
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13 posted 10-15-2011 09:27 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, at least your mis-quotes are consistent. Of course, if you want to show me where I said all OWLs are white, I'll be happy to look at it. Good luck..

What I DID do was to present this link..
http://news.yahoo.com/99-occupy-wall-street-organizers-look-minorities-200105971.html

You can either accept the possibility that the findings are valid or call it junk, as Bob did. Doesn't matter to me, either way.
Bob K
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     They are opinions, not findings, Mike.  As opinions, they have the same weight as mine.  As findings, they're junk.  Findings suggests there's some sort of scientific process involved.  In a prior posting I went through some of the reasons where that assumption was a big stretch.

     If you want to keep the discussion on the level of opinion versus opinion — there's a possibility, though I think it's not very good.  If you think it is very good, I've told you why I disagree, and you haven't really responded.  If you're talking about "findings," as you did in the posting just above, there are none because there is no science involved as yet.

     This doesn't mean there won't or can't be.  This doesn't mean that the results will be anything I might predict.  It does mean that the folks you're quoting haven't used anything like scientific method to arrive at their conclusions, which from a totally unscientific examination of the one photograph (supplied by you) that showed enough of a crowd to make out markers of race (if such a thing exists), gender, age and so on, the results your Conservative columnist reported were wildly off base.

     That served as the basis for my opinion that if one fairly decent shot blew the generalization out of the water, it might be possible that the other shots could be similarly biased.  Enough information to draw a fast and dirty intuitively based opinion for me.

     Nowhere near what's needed for aa finding either.
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15 posted 10-15-2011 10:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, once more with feeling....

A 40-photo Washington Post slideshow showing hundreds of angry protesters in New York and other cities includes no more than 15 clearly identifiable minority protesters, and just six African-Americans. The rest of the protesters shown are white, and most are male.

In 26 photos from San Francisco and Chicago gatherings posted on OccupyTogether.org, only one person from a minority group is clearly visible, and it’s unclear whether he is a protester or a bystander.


So much for the findings based on one photograph, right, Bob?

Hey, it doesn't matter. If you want to call it junk because you don't agree with it...fine. If LR wants to call the photo as possibly coming for Chile....good by me, too. No big deal at all....
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16 posted 10-15-2011 10:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

It should be simple enough to source the photo Mike.
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17 posted 10-15-2011 11:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Check out pic #4 in reply #29 of the occupy wall street thread and you'll see a similar sign, with Che Guevara prominently displayed, too. That one is in Spanish....maybe IT came from Chile!

Pic #3, same location, is a sign from the party for socialism and liberation....
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Bob, the Tea Party does not have 'formal membership'. Where did you see that at?
Local Rebel
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19 posted 10-15-2011 11:05 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

great, so where did you get the photos? who took them? who's putting their journalistic stamp on them and saying they are bonafide?
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#11, this thread:
quote:

— and the tea party has formal membership while the demonstrators do not, so the comparison is flawed to begin with —



      Quite the reverse of the way you read it, as you can see.  Perhaps I switched it someplace else and missed it?  If so, I'm sorry for the mistake.

     There are a number of splinter parties as I understand it, some of which recognize others and some do not.  You need to have boundaries for this to happen, and membership, otherwise how do you know that your organization is now responsible for paying Sarah Palin's speaker's fee while those folks over there are not responsible.  We over here collect and distribute the money for this event; you folks over there do not.

     The type of organization this resembles is the type which features self-organizing groups which get together around one or another area of interest, sometimes for long periods of time, sometimes for shorter.  This is a type of organizational pattern advocated by Prince Bakunin, and it is a form of anarchism, by the way.

     If any candidates ran as members of the Tea Party or anjy of its sub-groups, that also would make it a formal party with formal membership, in some cases this would be registered with the board of elections should anybody wished to take it that far.

     If you wished to simplify the question, you could ask somebody which party you belonged to.  Some people would tell you they belong to the tea Party, and that would make them members of the Tea Party, wouldn't it?

     Were you to ask somebody what party they were members of at one of these demonstrations, I have trouble imagining them saying, I am a member of the Demonstrator's Party; or the Occupy Wall Street Party.  The movement simply hasn't gone that far yet.  It's not a party, though the Tea Party is.

     You even call the Tea Party a Party.  You even say that the demonstrators are too difuse to have any identifiable goal or program.  I'm a Democrat, Identify myself as such, often vote as such and the Democrats send me emails and ask me for dough.  Far as I'm concerned that makes me a formal member of the party.

     What the heck do you have to do to be a formal member of The Tea Party?  And if it has anything to do with human sacrifice, I don't want to know anything about it.

Best...  
Denise
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How did I misread what you said, Bob? You said that they had 'formal membership'. I said that they didn't.

They also are not an official political party as are the Democrats, Republicans and Independents that one can register with.

Human sacrifice? I guess that was an attempt at some sort of humor but I'm not getting it.
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Yes, reb,I should have listed every credit for every photo. I got them all from the  google search engine. I really had no idea that someone would claim they may have come from Chile. If you want to consider them to be forgeries or fakes, fine with me. It comes across like a lawyer, pulling out all stops to defend a client he knows is guilty. I'll let other viewers decide if  they feel they are  valid or not.
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This link may be handy if you're thinking of applying for TP membership Bob.
http://memphisteaparty.com/Membership_Registration.php

Bob K
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24 posted 10-16-2011 11:40 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     If you were able to identify it as humor, you got it; you simply didn't think it was politically correct for your end of the spectrum.  And it may not have been, Denise, for which I appoligise.  I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings, I was trying to be funnyt and stumbled.

     I accept your correction of "party" amd would suggest that the same point might be made by using the word "caucus" in reference to the Tea Party membership in the House, where it does have a definite legislative presence and definitive membership; or, should you wish, by talking about it was "The Tea Party Movement," which also appears to have a self-identified membership, though, of necessity, not one elected by running for office by running on Tea Party Principles, which are well defined.

     My point is unaffected by the change in terminology.
 
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