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OWS vs Tea Party....signs of the times

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Denise
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25 posted 10-16-2011 01:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Well, wonders never cease. The Memphis Tea Party has an official membership now. I guess we are behind the times in my neck of the woods!

Your point, Bob, seems to be that the Tea Party has some sort of official membership. Well, apparently they do in one of the groups out of Memphis. Do you contend that some in the throng gathered at all the Occupy movements don't have similar membership in say the Communist Party USA, SEIU, the Nazi Party, or any number of other groups on the left? They may not belong to an official OWS Party but the fingerprints of all those other groups are well represented.
Bob K
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26 posted 10-16-2011 10:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Actually, Denise, I think that connection is a touch conspiratorial .  I've seen the references you've posted to some of these publications and on occasion I've posted my reactions to them.  I understand you value them and rate them highly, and I think you have a right to choose your sources.  But I've also made it fairly clear what I need to see in a publication to find it creditable; and most of these don't fit.  We disagree on this, which is okay with me.

     I don't throw out a publication because of its political orientation.  There are some right wing publications that I trust because I'm clear that they do excellent research, and many of the publications you quote are very sloppy about this sort of thing, and I don't trust them.  I don't suggest that you stop.  I shouldn't try to dictate this sort of thing to you.  But I can say that I don't find their standards of proof acceptable to me.

     Some of the folks in the ranks of these demonstrators may well be union members.  Some may have been right wing folks.  Some may have been left wing folks.  If you consider, you'll find that they will probably have belonged to many groups.  I fail to understand why you can draw the conclusion from this that they are all organized together in a single organized band.  That does not follow.  They don't even have a common platform or agenda as yet, and may not work one out ever, though I hope they do.

     The tea party movement, on the other hand, does have a fairly general notion of what their agenda is.  They have enough of an agreement to have a congressional caucus and to agree on "fiscal conservatism" and various other elements of a platform which some candidates have supported.  Some of these candidates have won seats in the congress through courting Tea Party support.

    The demonstrators are at a different state of group development than the Tea Party.  I would hope that the demonstrators would have some left wing principles that will emerge to guide them, but I have no idea what they are.  The ones available in the Democratic Party at this point are pretty lilly livered; and despite the common Right Wing perception of President Obama being terribly left wing, from somebody who is left wing, he doesn't appear that way at all.  He appears like an old liberal Republican.

     No offense, Denise, but I really have a disagreement with the way you're presenting things, and I hope I've made at least some of it a bit more obvious.  I hope I doing it respectfully enough, here; but our disagreement really seems basic.
Balladeer
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27 posted 10-16-2011 10:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I, on the other hand, have NO disagreement with  the way you are presenting things, Denise. Hats off to you....
Denise
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28 posted 10-17-2011 10:41 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks, Mike!

Bob, you can research the facts contained within the links I shared. No need to be primarily hung up on the 'messengers'.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=356769
Uncas
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29 posted 10-17-2011 02:05 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

quote:
you can research the facts contained within the links I shared.



You certainly can Denise, and I did, unfortunately I couldn't find any evidence regarding who funded the protests.  Obviously, you've come across more information in your research than I did - could you supply some specific links to fact based evidence?

.
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30 posted 10-17-2011 04:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Uncas, she showed the  link where an Obama aide is offering a salary for would-be occupy organizers. Also there are videos of a  union leader acknowledging some of the protestors are getting paid to attend and then you have this link where teachers are offering students favorable grade credits for attending and carrying posters.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/college-professor-offers-students-extra-credit-for-attending-occupy-protest/

Balladeer
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31 posted 10-17-2011 04:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Anti-Wall Street protesters say the rich are getting richer while average Americans suffer, but the group that started it all may have benefited indirectly from the largesse of one of the world's richest men.

There has been much speculation over who is financing the disparate protest, which has spread to cities across America and lasted nearly four weeks. One name that keeps coming up is investor George Soros, who in September debuted in the top 10 list of wealthiest Americans. Conservative critics contend the movement is a Trojan horse for a secret Soros agenda.

Soros and the protesters deny any connection. But Reuters did find indirect financial links between Soros and Adbusters, an anti-capitalist group in Canada which started the protests with an inventive marketing campaign aimed at sparking an Arab Spring type uprising against Wall Street.

http://news.yahoo.com/whos-behind-wall-st-protests-110834998.html

   The Working Families Party (WFP) (www.workingfamiliesparty.org) is New York's most energetic, independent and progressive political party. Formed in 1998 by a grassroots coalition of community organizations, neighborhood activists, and labor unions, we came together to build a society that works for all of us, not just Wall Street CEOs and the well-connected. WFP is independent from corporate and government funding and in-addition we are community based; community funded and equally uninfluenced by both major parties. Our agenda focuses on economic and social justice, corporate accountability, job creation, environmental protection, and investment in education and healthcare.

     The WFP is seeking immediate hires.

I don't begrudge anyone a job, of course.  Honest work, etc. etc.  But there is something, well, sharply ironic about a non-profit with enough money and funding (via donations, I presume) to pay folks to protest a system that creates enough wealth to fund, via donations, a non-profit that then hires folks to protest that system.

My suggestion is: cut out the middleman.  Have Wall Street investment banks permanently employ folks to protest outside their offices.  

http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Jobless-Protestors-Find-Jobs-Protesting-Joblessness


Labor unions, communists, “community organizers,” socialists, and anti-capitalist agitators have all joined together to “Occupy Wall Street” and protest against “greed,” corporations, and bankers. But despite efforts to portray the movement as “leaderless” or “grassroots,” it is becoming obvious that there is much more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye.

Billionaire financier George Soros’ fingerprints, for example, have been all over the anti-Wall Street campaign from the very beginning. And this week, the infamous hedge-fund boss publicly announced his sympathy for the protesters and their complaints about bailouts — despite the fact that he lobbied for even greater unconstitutional handouts to bankers in 2009.

“Actually I can understand their sentiment, frankly,” he told reporters while announcing a large donation to the United Nations. “I can sympathize with their grievances.”

But Soros’ support for the protesters goes far beyond his tepid public statements. In fact, the original call to “Occupy Wall Street” came from the magazine AdBusters, an “anti-consumerist” publication financed by, among other sources, the Soros-funded Tides Foundation.

Other Soros-backed outfits promoting big government — some with myriad ties to the Obama administration — are also publicly driving the occupation campaign. MoveOn.org, for instance, has received millions of dollars from the billionaire banker. And now, the group is urging its supporters to join the Occupy Wall Street movement as well.  

“Over the last two weeks, an amazing wave of protest against Wall Street and the big banks has erupted across the country,” MoveOn said in a recent e-mail to supporters, praising the “brave” demonstrators. “On Wednesday, MoveOn members will join labor and community groups in New York City for a huge march down to the protest site — the biggest yet.”

On top of supplying activists to join the demonstrations, MoveOn is also staging what it calls a “massive ‘Virtual March on Wall Street’ online.” The Internet-based demonstrations are a collaborative effort with another radical and well-connected outfit tied to Soros called Rebuild the Dream.

Led by self-described communist and former Obama administration czar Van Jones, the “Dream” movement is a partnership between a host of Soros-financed “progressive” groups. Big Labor and even Planned Parenthood — the largest abortion provider in America, which receives hundreds of millions of tax dollars each year — are partners, too.

Union bosses and others intimately linked to President Obama — whose top campaign contributors included Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, and other big banks — are also playing a key role in the Wall Street protests. The protesters are even recycling administration talking points such as the old “the rich should be forced to pay their 'fair share'" — despite the fact that the “Buffett rule” tax proposal being advanced would almost exclusively soak what remains of the middle class.

But that might be the point. According to reports and analysts, the whole anti-Wall Street movement has been carefully orchestrated by the Obama-linked anti-capitalist union titans and tax-funded “community organizers.” A troubling plot to essentially finish off capitalism was exposed earlier this year, and at the time it was blasted as “economic terrorism.” Even more disturbing: It was uncannily similar to the growing Wall Street demonstrations.  

Community organizer Stephen Lerner of the SEIU, a regular White House guest, was caught on video in March discussing the scheme to “bring down the stock market” and "destabilize" the nation — all with the stated goal of "redistributing wealth." And while the whole conspiracy was not revealed because Lerner suspected police were present, the strategies he mentioned included civil disobedience and mass anti-banker protests.

Another conspirator said to be pulling the strings, disgraced ACORN founder and union boss Wade Rathke, was advocating massive “Day of Rage” protests targeting bankers earlier this year. And he is also closely tied to Obama, who actually used to work for Rathke’s “community organizing” outfit.

Beyond Big Labor and Soros “front groups,” as critics call them, is also a vast collection of socialist and Marxist organizations supporting the demonstrations. The Socialist Party USA, the Marxist-oriented Workers World Party, the International Committee of the Fourth International, and the Communist Party USA-affiliated People’s World are all publicly and openly backing the movement.

While the occupation movement purports to be “leaderless,” in reality, critics say its leaders and financiers are barely concealed. According to analysts, the protests — which are quickly spreading to cities across the United States, Canada, and Europe — actually represent a well-orchestrated operation being used by the very same elite “one percent” supposedly being protested against.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/9269-big-soros-money-linked-to-occupy-wall-street
Uncas
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32 posted 10-17-2011 07:18 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Soros and the protesters deny any connection. But Reuters did find indirect financial links between Soros and Adbusters, an anti-capitalist group in Canada which started the protests with an inventive marketing campaign aimed at sparking an Arab Spring type uprising against Wall Street.


Reuters have since retracted the claim Mike after realising that there was absolutely no evidence to back it up.

.
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33 posted 10-17-2011 07:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Soros is a smart fellow with a lot of pull.
Uncas
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34 posted 10-17-2011 07:25 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Soros is a smart fellow with a lot of pull.


The fact that he didn't do what they claimed he did might have been a contributing factor too don't you think?


Local Rebel
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35 posted 10-17-2011 07:28 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Let me ask you this Mike, you are obviously not a fan of Soros, I'm not a fan of the Koch bros......so, would you agree we need to put K street and billionaire ideologues out of the politics business by limiting all donations,including superpacs and anonymous funding groups, and go to strictly publicly funded elections?
Balladeer
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36 posted 10-17-2011 08:19 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, I would have no problem with that. In this case, though, we're not talking donations. We're talking manipulation.
Bob K
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37 posted 10-17-2011 08:29 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Let me see here.  You're upset at claims that Reuters retracted that Soros funded some of these Wall street protests, Mike; Is that right?    They were a reliable source when they agreed with you; but when they disagreed with you, they weren't?

     I would think that a reliable source is one that you trust to give you information that you don't need to cherry-pick, but then that's the way I try to choose my news sources most of the time, and sometimes I have to change my opinion based on new information I get.  

     The name for phony grass roots  organizations that I came across, and which I thought was quite clever, was "astroturf" organizations.  They're funded from the outside and cultivated artificially.  It sounds as tough you think that the demonstrations are an example of that sort of thing, and I can't really debate the issue because I don't know.  That Reuters would retract its report on the connection with Soros, I think, seems telling, though.

     I find the reports of funding by Goldman Sachs somewhat unlikely, since I believe they're one of the firms that's been demonstrated against.  It's possible that they might be funding their own demonstrators, of course, as the somewhat tongue in cheek comment earlier suggested, and I must say I like the irony of the thought.

     I seem to recall that when the Republicans came up to Wall Street to confer with the folks up there a couple of years back about how the Wall Street folks thought regulation should proceed, Goldman Sachs was among the folks included among the conferees.  I may well be wrong about that; but that is my recollection.  What's yours in the matter?

     Also, my first memory of the use of the term "astroturf" in reference to organizations had to do with the beginnings of The Tea Party when The Health Care debate was getting underway, and insurance money and some Koch brothers money was being funneled to help start the new Tea Party organization up.  I don't recall much, if any, anger on the Right about either the alligations or the reality.

     Why the fury about the possibility of somebody else doiung such a thing now?  Was there something distasteful about it?  Should it have been censured or punished in some fashion.  Was it an example that should not have been followed?

quote:

In July 2010, David Koch told New York magazine: "I've never been to a Tea Party event. No one representing the Tea Party has ever even approached me." But a fascinating new film – (Astro)Turf Wars, by Taki Oldham – tells a fuller story. Oldham infiltrated some of the movement's key organising events, including the 2009 Defending the American Dream summit, convened by a group called Americans for Prosperity (AFP). The film shows David Koch addressing the summit. "Five years ago," he explains, "my brother Charles and I provided the funds to start Americans for Prosperity. It's beyond my wildest dreams how AFP has grown into this enormous organisation."
A convener tells the crowd how AFP mobilised opposition to Barack Obama's healthcare reforms. "We hit the button and we started doing the Twittering and Facebook and the phonecalls and the emails, and you turned up!" Then a series of AFP organisers tell Mr Koch how they have set up dozens of Tea Party events in their home states. He nods and beams from the podium like a chief executive receiving rosy reports from his regional sales directors. Afterwards, the delegates crowd into AFP workshops, where they are told how to run further Tea Party events.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers




     And for painfully detailed information with footnotes about AFP and the Koch brothers and how they work, please feel free to check out this site:
http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Americans_for_Prosperity
Local Rebel
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38 posted 10-17-2011 09:05 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I'm actually suprised Mike, that Ron would allow you to post photos without sourcing and crediting them, since failing to do so subjects PIP to copyright infringement.  Google works from text, so, when it  finds text assosiated with, or near a photo that might match your search terms, it will return that picture whether or not it is in fact a pic of your chosen subject, so your method doesn't particularly inspire any confidence on my part.

Mad Magazine .....?


Local Rebel
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39 posted 10-17-2011 09:10 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ok, back to the other subject --- all money manipulates Mike so if you agree with what I said, and you're serious about gettin money out of politics...
http://movetoamend.org/
Balladeer
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40 posted 10-17-2011 11:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

As far as the pics are concerned, I used ask.com, looking for articles on the Occupy gatherings. Within an article, there were links to photos taken at the events. I tried to backtrack them but my history erases when I leave the 'net so I didn't find them.

As far as your link, I have no problem with it at all. Earlier you had made some remark about corporation not being people until they were executed in Texas or some silly stuff and I responded to it because it was such a pathetic attempt to slip in a Republican dig, not because I considered corporations to be people. I agree with your link and would be happy to see corporations out of the election process altogether. For that matter, I would like to see lobbyists out of Washington, too.
 
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