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Passions in Poetry

Occupy Wall Street

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Uncas
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150 posted 10-20-2011 02:27 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Yeah, those darn Wall Street pickpockets. They did it all,


I'd agree with that. Mike. The previous US governments are guilty of letting them do it and the current government is guilty of almost guaranteeing that they'll do it again but ultimately the financial institutions that slither around Wall Street are to blame.  

.
Balladeer
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151 posted 10-20-2011 04:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If they slither, they don't have arms or hands so how can they be pickpockets?? Just askin'..


When they follow the law and it's wrong, then the law is wrong.
Local Rebel
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152 posted 10-20-2011 04:52 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

fangs
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153 posted 10-20-2011 04:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You're welcome.
Uncas
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154 posted 10-20-2011 05:43 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
When they follow the law and it's wrong, then the law is wrong.


And when they bribe politicians to change the law in their favour?

Balladeer
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155 posted 10-20-2011 08:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I agree. Not much we can do about the bribers - I'm fairly certain park occupiers won't do it - but we can vote the takers out of office.

That's why I say the protestors are at the wrong location.
Bob K
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156 posted 10-20-2011 10:10 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Why not join them and let your feelings be known, Mike?  You may have some major disagreements with them, but it sounds as though you have some points in common as well.  Why let this movement be a completely left wing movement?
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157 posted 10-20-2011 11:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have many points in common with them. I don't like the greed or corruption any more  than they do.

Unfortunately I have two major differences with them. First, they have no purpose, no plan. They are just revolting.

Second they are in the wrong place. They should be in front of the national and state capitols. Protesting against businesses is simple, especially if you have the 99% of the public you claim to have. You boycott them. You hit them in their wallets.

The protestors have no game plan. They are just letting off steam. Ok, letting off steam can be a good thing but that's not enough if you are trying to accomplish something.

The tea partiers accomplished something. They told the congressmen do right by us or we vote you our of office...and they had enough solidarity and influence to do exactly that. The protestors have nothing like that and that makes them ineffective.

Bob K
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158 posted 10-21-2011 12:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Join them and add your insight and vision.  You'd have a chance of effecting some of your ideas for direction.
Local Rebel
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159 posted 10-21-2011 01:48 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

If you think they hsve no plan Mike, you need to turn off the Fox and read the websites I linked you to earlier.
Huan Yi
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160 posted 10-21-2011 03:01 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I this morning had a brief conversation with a young woman who is pursuing
her masters online and is having to take out government loans because tuition
and books for her online courses run $12,000 a year, (a course goes for $2,000
a book she cited $200).  What bank do you blame for that?  

I knew within weeks of starting my university education on the GI Bill
almost 40 years ago that a BA in English was not going to get me a job
worth the time, money and effort.   So if someone now takes out loans to
major in English or Diversity Studies and ends up with a degree, huge debts,
and no job, what bank do you blame for that?

There was a lot of greed among the masses that drove the housing market
for years after there were open warnings in the media that the bubble
was bound to burst.

Barney Frank is on tape blowing off concerns about Fannie and Freddie
which were feeding the insanity.  
.

Balladeer
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161 posted 10-21-2011 03:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, you  don't want me to dissect your first link. Trust  me on this one.

Your second link states..OccupyWallSt.org is the unofficial de facto online resource for the ongoing protests happening on Wall Street. We are an affinity group committed to doing technical support work for resistance movements. We are not affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.

Occupy Wall Street is a people-powered movement that began on September 17, 2011 in Liberty Square in Manhattan’s Financial District, and has spread to over 100 cities in the United States and actions in over 1,500 cities globally. #OWS is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

Occupy Wall Street is a horizontally organized resistance movement employing the revolutionary Arab Spring tactic to restore democracy in America. We use a tool known as a "people's assembly" to facilitate collective decision making in an open, participatory and non-binding manner. We call ours the NYC General Assembly and we welcome people from all colors, genders and beliefs to attend our daily assemblies. To learn more about how you can start a people's assembly to organize your local community to fight back against social injustice, please read this quick guide on group dynamics in people's assemblies.


Great. Those are a lot of words that say nothing about the OWS purpose, except to say that it is " fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process, and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations. "  No specifics givenat all.

Third link makes no sense at all.

Fourth link consists of letter of hard luck stories, including one from a baby five weeks old (must be a child progedy!!!)

I am 5 weeks old. My daddy works three jobs so that my mommy can stay home and take care of me. We live in a one-bedroom apartment because the rent for a larger home is too high - there are families in our apartment building with 3 or more children living in the same size space.  We are lucky – my daddy’s student loan (Bachelor of Comp. Sci.) is almost paid off and we have no other debt. But my parents stress out about the possibility of the car breaking down or me getting sick because we don’t have much extra money. We live in Hawaii, where there is the greatest concentration of both billionaires and homeless in the world and it’s obvious that it is time for a reality check in paradise. We are the 99%. occupywallst.org

Non list a goal or plan of action to change their status.

Your links are basically worthless and answer nothing.

Bob K
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162 posted 10-21-2011 04:51 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     John, at what point did you get the idea that banks are to blame for everything?  Or that everybody on the left believes that and should try to defend that proposition.

     There is also a difference between a liberal education and a training school which has been lost over the years.  The public at large has come to think that a liberal education ought to supply job skills training.  That is a confusion of purposes.  A degree in engineering used to be available at an engineering school.  Mining engineers yused to be trained in mining schools and doctors, without benefit of prior pre-medical training, used to be trained in Medical schools.  Law schools used to be apprenticeships and then an exam.  These were professions with skills that didn't really need a college education in the Arts or in the Sciences.

     I think they probably still don't, and that a liberal arts education is not what people in these professions, for the most part, want.  They want training so they can make money and have a certain amount of status.  I don't know a lot of people in these professions who read more than professional or pulp literature for the rest of their lives, and I don't know many who make a point of reading outside their own political viewpoint, religious viewpoint or cultural viewpoint unless forced to do so.

     There are some extraordinary exceptions, and I love finding them, too many for me to say that I've run across a rule, enough to say that most people don't want a liberal education, whose function is to teach the student to think.  Most people, I'd have to say, tend to want an education that pays for itself in cash, and resent having to pay for one  that gives such ephemeral results.

     I think pure training programs would be cheaper.  And a liberal arts education is probably wasted on most of the people who'd rather simply be a doctor, or a lawyer or an engineer or a clergyman.

     Why are college educations so expensive?

     Because colleges are wasting their time training people instead of educating them, which means there are too many of them with too many duplicated structures which duplicate costs unnecessarily, especially administrative costs.  They are in competition for the same money from donors, which makes endowment money difficult to come by.  The costs of education aren't usually covered by tuition and fees; each student is frequently a cost liability for the college and requires an expenditure from the endowment.  Students, even paying full freight, don't usually pay for the full cost of their educations.  And during tough economic times, the size of the endowments tends to go down because the market will go down, because all investments in the endowment don't make money, and because of inflation.

     Inflation is tough to figure because it is not only objective, but subjective as well.  I have two subjective measures I go by because they're meaningful to me, not because they're exact measures.  I was looking at candy bars the other day.  I saw an old favorite of mine, a three musketeers bar, selling for a dollar.  When I was a kid, it was a nickle.  When I was an undergraduate, it was a dime.

     I quit smoking cigarettes when I was about 25.  I'd been smoking three packs a day for years, and the price had just hit $.40 a pack.  It depends where you buy them these days, but ten to twelve times that amount isn't all that out of line.  And the cost of tuition that John's friend reports is in the same range.

     If you want to ask what effect the banks have on that, I'd be interested in knowing what percentage of that money these days is directly on loan from the government and what percentage is through a bank and what profit the bank makes on top of the rate the government charges, and what the penalties and fees the bank charges over and above what the government has asked for?

     I don't know the answers to these things, but I have doubts that the banks would handle business that wasn't profitable for them.  Perhaps others know of efforts on the part of the banking industry to rid themselves of this, but I don't.  I suspect that a less expensive way might be found to manage these loans so that they'd be cheaper for the students and involve less processing and paperwork all around, siumply by cutting the banks and their profit margin out of the picture.

     Doesn't that qualify as corporate welfare?
Local Rebel
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163 posted 10-21-2011 04:52 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I had hoped you would be a bit more adventurous Mike...and I don't want you to dissect at all, participate,

watch this and be there; http://www.nycga.net/about/

read this and understand (unless you choose not to)
http://www.nycga.net/resources/declaration/

You're looking for the end, but, there is no end.  It's the beginning of the means.  

There is no varnish, no spin, no pre-packaged memes.  And, I realize democracy is a scary thing.  The problem is, for most of our lives we were programmed to believe democracy and capitalism are synonymous.  

YOU can have a part in it too.... share your voice with them.... everyone has a voice in it.  The only people that should frighten are the ones who think they should have more voice than everybody else.
Balladeer
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164 posted 10-21-2011 05:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

More adventurous, reb? I spent over an hour on your first link and found more to support my theory than anyone else's..

As far as these go, yes, I read and understand. I understand that they have a shopping list of complaints, most of which have been in existence for decades. To pick out a couple...

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.


I wasn't aware that a college education is a human right..

Anyone can come up with these generic statements but what is missing is any solutions to what they claim is the problem.

You claim I'm looking for the end but there is no end? Guilty as charged. When I start something there is a goal in mind and at least some kind of blueprint to achieve that
end. This is like the Sacramento fellow who said, "We are all meeting here and I will appoint a committee to decide why we are meeting here." Excuse me??

Their demands are a list of bromides, nothing more, that make little or no sense. You make it sound like it's unrealistic to believe they should know what they are talking about and what changes they want made, almost as if just bonding together in mobs in parks, carrying signs and chanting will somehow create some kind of osmosis that will lead the way to peace, light and happiness for all.

Way back when in my business life, I worked for a man who said, "Feel free to bring up any problems you see but make sure you have a solution or better way when you do." Afraid I still live by that.

Groups that just  band together to complain about everything  from animal testing to eliminating all debt and have nothing positive to offer don't interest me, LR.


Ron
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165 posted 10-22-2011 10:19 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I've removed several posts from this thread that were directed at posters when everyone here knows they should be directed at posts. Please try to stay on track, guys.
Bob K
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166 posted 10-22-2011 03:15 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

[ Edited - Bob, you had some good points in this post, but I just don't have time to edit out the parts where you continue to talk about other people who are posting in this thread. You'll have to do your own editing, I'm afraid. And I sincerely hope you do. - Ron ]

[This message has been edited by Ron (10-22-2011 03:29 PM).]

Bob K
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167 posted 10-22-2011 04:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thanks, Ron.  I appreciate the feedback.  I do have a copy of this, and I think I'll take a day or two and revise.  I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Huan Yi
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168 posted 10-23-2011 02:01 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

There are now more foreign students taking advanced degrees
in engineering and the sciences at our top universities than Americans.
India now has a middle class of three hundred million and growing
while 80% of US manufacturers surveyed say one of their biggest problems
is finding skilled labor for their  workforce .   Mark Steyn made a good point:
the American bubble of 1950, (the advantages of being the only major country
not devastated by war),  has deflated.    Is that Wall Street’s fault?

.
Bob K
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169 posted 10-23-2011 02:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Perhaps you might clarify why you would call the sustained growth during the forties and fifties and well into the sixties "a bubble?"  It seems that it's convenient to call it that in a NR essay, but I don't recall any contemporary literature that spoke of it that way, and the growth that took place seemed solid enough.  It was an era of both Democratic and Republican administrations.  

     It seems to me that the notion of bubbles has become more frequent since the attacks on the safety net have intensified.  I identify the beginning of that as the time when country's currency was first allowed to float during the Nixon administration.  I'm not terribly sophisticated economically, and I confess this may be an arbitrary marker.  I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of others on the matter.  

     Since that time, there have been a series of attacks on the regulations that tried to prevent the conditions that allowed the great depression to happen, including the deregulation of banking and insurance industries.  As these episodic deregulations have be legislated, the results seem to have been occasional boom and bust cycles in the industries that the regulations had been meant to control.  Utilities, for example, leading to the Enron disaster; and banking and insurance leading to the housing and mortgage boom and bust.

     I don't recall anything of that sort during the fifties.  Perhaps John might refresh our memories by offering an example to bolster his suggestion that the particular era he suggests was a Bubble actually was a bubble and not an era of solid growth.

     This has the feel of the NR attempting another revision of the historical record.
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170 posted 10-23-2011 06:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Mark Steyn made a good point:
the American bubble of 1950, (the advantages of being the only major country
not devastated by war),  has deflated.  


I think that is pretty self-explanatory. We were indeed basically one of the only major countries not devastated by WWII. While we were prospering, the rest of the world was recuperating and rebuilding. Later, when the countries had recovered, the "bubble" was  gone.

It is also a sobering fact about the foreign students outnumbering Americans in advance degrees in engineering and the sciences. America does not rank high in the world with regards to education. Other countries recognize what we have and take advantage of them to be successful...(while our students protest that they want everything for free.)
Local Rebel
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171 posted 10-23-2011 06:56 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Other countries send their kids to college to get those degrees Mike.  
Balladeer
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172 posted 10-23-2011 07:35 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Be more specific, please.
Huan Yi
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173 posted 10-23-2011 11:20 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“Since 1970, public-school employment has increased ten times faster than public-school enrollment. In 2008, the United States spent more per student on K–12 education than any other developed nation except Switzerland — and at least the Swiss have something to show for it. In 2008, York City School District spent $12,691 per pupil — or about a third more than the Swiss. Slovakia’s total per-student cost is less than York City’s current per-student deficit — and the Slovak kids beat the United States at mathematics, which may explain why their budget arithmetic still has a passing acquaintanceship with reality. . .

For example, under the Obama “stimulus,” U.S. taxpayers gave a $529 million loan guarantee to the company Fisker to build their Karma electric car. At a factory in Finland.

If you’re wondering how giving half a billion dollars to a Finnish factory stimulates the U.S. economy, well, what’s a lousy half-bil in a multi-trillion-dollar sinkhole? Besides, in the 2009 global rankings, Finnish schoolkids placed sixth in math, third in reading, and second in science, while suffering under the burden of a per-student budget half that of York City. By comparison, America placed 17th in reading, 23rd in science, and 31st in math. So the good news is that, by using U.S.-government money to fund a factory in Finland, Fisker may be able to hire workers smart enough to figure out how to build an unwanted electric car that doesn’t lose its entire U.S.-taxpayer investment.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/280986/biden-s-fourth-grade-economics-mark- steyn?pg=2


What percentage of US students in college at entry are found to lack the basic skills necessary
for success at university?   What percentage show little or no improvement in cognitive skills
after two years of classes?   The young woman pursuing her masters online told me she
heard from more than one source that college has become the new high school, an
extension of adolescence.   Is that Wall Street’s fault?

.
Local Rebel
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174 posted 10-23-2011 11:49 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Specifically, most EU, Arabic, and in South America, Brazil and Argentina provide post-secondary education tuition free.
 
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