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Occupy Wall Street

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Denise
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125 posted 10-16-2011 07:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yep, fortunately. Some economists believe, though, that the government intervention extended the Great Depression by about 10 years. That's a lot of unnecessary suffering if true.
Bob K
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126 posted 10-16-2011 10:13 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Yes, I've heard that about the economists.  Who would they be and where did they make their statements?  I'd like a chance to have a look.  Maybe I could learn something.  Maybe I might find an interesting reply.  I have no idea at this point.
Denise
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127 posted 10-17-2011 10:39 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Google it, Bob. That's what I did.
Bob K
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128 posted 10-17-2011 11:54 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Why?

     You're the one who's suggesting it's true.  If you can't support your allegation, as far as I'm concerned, you aren't holding up your end of the conversation.  Why should I do your work for you?  I'd say the same thing to anybody else and I'd expect them to say the same thing to me.

     Beyond that, you're well aware that conventional wisdom is that it was Keynesian economic got us out of the depression, and that you're making a statement that's contrary to generally accepted understanding.  If you expect to be taken seriously, then you need to explain that you're passing on more than a rumor.  "Some people say," is unattributed and waves responsibility on the part of the speaker you in this case.

     Why should I believe something the speaker herself is unwilling to take responsibility for stating?

     And when I ask for data, she blows me off.

     Give me a break!
Denise
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129 posted 10-17-2011 02:15 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Don't believe me, verify it yourself.
Balladeer
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130 posted 10-17-2011 04:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, you are going under the premise that you would believe it, anyway. Your track record shows that that is not likely.

Verifying is the right thing. if you think she is wrong, show us where, You would be checking it out anyway if the links were provided if to do nothing more to prove her wrong. So go for it....
Denise
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131 posted 10-17-2011 06:06 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm not blowing you off Bob. I mentioned that many economists believe that the government intervention during the Great Depression prolonged it by about 10 years. It was something that I read awhile ago. You obviously had heard the same as you stated that you did. Why must I take the time to try to find something that I had read several months to a year ago, especially when you would not be satisfied with whatever source contained that analysis? You would just dismiss my source, present your own source that has an analysis stating the complete opposite, and as Michael said, think you have proven me wrong. What's the point?

Can't I even state that I read something once that suggested something without it having to turn into a full blown debate with points and counter points? I don't have time for that. I'm not online very much due to my having a full time job, a part time job and a sick husband. I enjoy being a part of the conversation when I do get a chance to pop in and share a few things. If you don't think I'm 'holding up' my end of the conversation because I am not jumping through your hoops that's truly your problem.
Uncas
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132 posted 10-17-2011 07:20 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Some economists believe, though, that the government intervention extended the Great Depression by about 10 years


This appeal to authority is a pretty weak argument given that the authority in question - economists - spectacularly failed to predict every recession and depression that's ever occurred - including the current one. Why the heck would you believe those idiots.



I've heard the claims that the new deal prolonged the depression Bob, they don't make much sense though when you dig into them. The claims generally quote unemployment figures that ignore all the jobs created by the government at the time while relying on hypothetical growth rates in GDP that are way higher than highest growth rates ever achieved in the history of American economics.

There's a far easier way to debunk the notion though, simply compare America's recovery to another country that didn't introduce any type of New Deal style policy - Australia for instance - did Australia's economy recover 7 years earlier than that of the US.
Bob K
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133 posted 10-17-2011 07:32 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thank you, Uncas.  You are gracious in offering your insights here.
Balladeer
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134 posted 10-18-2011 08:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7694
Local Rebel
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135 posted 10-18-2011 08:29 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Why not go to the actual source Mike?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/
http://occupywallst.org/about/
http://nycga.cc/
http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

Denise
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136 posted 10-19-2011 09:15 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

"I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money."
~Thomas Sowell
Bob K
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137 posted 10-19-2011 06:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     You sound as though you believe that wanting shelter and food is greedy, Denise.  Is that what you mean to be saying?

     I always thought that greedy had to do with a situation where a person already had enough and was now looking to increase their share at the expense of the fair share of others.  The poor, in this case, frequently, don't have shelter or food or basic medical care, a safe environment or other basics.  It sounds that you are suiggesting that it is greedy for them to want these things in a wealthy country.

     If these are your thoughts, I must respectfully disagree.
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138 posted 10-19-2011 06:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I don't see the protestors without food or a place to live. I see them out there with computers, cellphones, jewelry and, as you pointed out, decently dressed....wanting more and demanding that others pay for it.
Huan Yi
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139 posted 10-19-2011 07:51 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/07/what-is-poverty
.

Denise
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140 posted 10-19-2011 08:00 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

All of this is simply the politics of envy, "I want what you have and if I can't have it I don't want you to have it either".

Did Steve Jobs or Bill Gates take the 'fair share' of others or did they create their own wealth, opportunity for others in the way of employment, and improve all of our lives at the same time?

I don't want the government determining if or when someone has made enough and that a 'fair share' of what they make belongs to everybody else. Nobody else's wealth is mine for the taking. I didn't earn their wealth, they did. What I earn is mine, period.
http://www.daveramsey.com/article/dear-occupy-wall-street/lifeandmoney_economy/
Uncas
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141 posted 10-19-2011 08:13 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
What I earn is mine, period.


Unless you're a banker who just got a bonus from a government bailout, which I think is closer to the point the protesters are making.

.
Local Rebel
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142 posted 10-19-2011 08:50 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Politics of envy?

Really?  That's what you want to say to the  50 million people who were playing by the rules working hard, and wanted to KEEP WHAT THEY EARNED when they woke up one morning to find that Wall Street had picked their pocket of all the equity they had built up in their house and actually left them swimming in a mortgage that was now more than the house was worth?

The politics of envy?

If you don't have a job and you're not rich it's your own fault (excepting for when you feel like blaming Obama).

If you lost your job to some 6 year old in India, you should have learned how to make it in America for 50 cents a day.... right?  Am I right?  Otherwise, you're just a big steaming pile of envy.

Denise
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143 posted 10-19-2011 08:51 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The bankers paid back the bailout loans with interest. I think I read somewhere (sorry don't have the link handy) that the government made 70 billion on the deal.

So what's the problem?
Denise
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144 posted 10-19-2011 09:04 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

A few bad apple bankers didn't cause all those problems, LR. That planned economic meltdown had plenty of help from the politicians and their policies and the movers and shakers behind the politicians.

I lost a lot in the meltdown too. But I'm not 'Occupying Wall Street' over it. That's not where the primary problem is located. And that isn't the way to solve the problem. We have to start electing people who have our best interests as their focus and not the interests of their political contributors.
Bob K
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145 posted 10-19-2011 09:28 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

"I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money."
~Thomas Sowell



     That was your posting, Denise.

     Now it appears that you didn't mean that, but something different; more nuanced.  Something about the demonstrators instead of the issues the demonstrators are upset about, it seems.

     When you let a quote say everything for you, you run the risk of having people misunderstand what you're talking about.  It would still be helpful if you were specific about what you were talking about, simply to put the quote in context.
Local Rebel
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146 posted 10-19-2011 09:37 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You're absolutely right Denise, the politicians who caved to Wall Street and got rid of Glass Steagal are absolutely responsible for this too.

You're sounding more like a 99%er all the time
Bob K
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147 posted 10-19-2011 09:52 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

I don't see the protestors without food or a place to live. I see them out there with computers, cellphones, jewelry and, as you pointed out, decently dressed....wanting more and demanding that others pay for it.



     Gosh, you don't see me without food or a place to live, either, Mike.  You make it sound as though if I protest that others don't have it, that means my voice doesn't mean anything.  That makes no sense at all.  Since you don't have a bajillion bucks, that doesn't mean that you don't have a right to stand up for the rights of bajillionaires, does it?

     I would hope not.

     And that doesn't mean that your super rich bajillionaires don't want more and don't want others to pay for it, either.  In fact, that's how a lot of business is done.

     The problem comes, it seems to me, when the super rich compete for money that should be going to people who can't feed or clothe or house  themselves, and when that money goes to simply pilling up personal wealth rather than helping aid survival.

     And yes, John, that survival can on occasion include heat and air conditioning.  I've lived in situations where the lack of one or the other can be debilitating or fatal, and I suspect that you have as well.  In the winter in Montreal the temperature can and does go down to thirty below and colder on occasion, and here in LA the temperature can and does go above a hundred on occasion.  Even in Boston there are weather related deaths, as there are pretty much across the country.

     I'd be hard put to believe San Diego, mind you.  Depending on the state of the economy, the homeless population varies widely, and a large portion of the homeless in a bad economy can be children.  

     Here in LA, we have a very limited number of shelter beds and a large number of homeless folks.
Balladeer
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148 posted 10-20-2011 12:24 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yeah, those darn Wall Street pickpockets. They did it all, without the government doing anything. The housing values went down and caused people to owe more than their house is now worth, all Wall Street fault. Nothing to do with Fannie, Freddie, Barney or Acorn.

Bob thinks they are out there protesting for the homeless and destitute.  We must be looking at different demonstrations. The ones I see, they are protesting for themselves. They want their personal debts wiped off. They was assured jobs at good pay. They want a free college education. I haven't heard anyone say anything about the homeless.

Of course it would help if they actually knew  what they were protesting. Asking them doesn't shed any light on it. They don't seem to have a clue. They have been asked  repeatedly by reporters and come up empty. One student was asked that question on the evening news tonight and he said, "We will stay here until we get what we want!" The reporter said, "What do you  want?" and the kid went speechless...didn't know what to say. That's been typical since it all started.

I could suggest some new  signs like "THE UPPER 1% PAYS 40% OF ALL INCOME TAXES AND WE WANT THEM TO PAY MORE!! or WE WANT THE 50% THAT DON'T PAY TAXES TO PAY LESS!! Maybe that would work....
Bob K
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149 posted 10-20-2011 11:33 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/top-1-paid-more-in-fede  ral-income-taxes-than-bottom-95-in-07/

     The top one percent made more than twenty percent of the income (2007 figures) and that figure had been showing steady growth.  The graphs are available at the site above.  So if the top one percent paid more in taxes than 95% of the population, they'd also made at least 20% of the total gross income in the whole country; and that share had been increasing at the expense of those at the lower levels.

     Among other question that come up must be, why does the country need to borrow money to give to the top 1%, then; is there some data that says that they need it and people who have difficulty finding food and shelter don't?

     I'd really have to have that demonstrated by showing how all these years of tax cuts have made the economy boom.

     I'd in particular like to know how many of the 1% are counted among the 50% that don't pay taxes, or that end up getting paid by the government overall for one thing or another so that they file taxes and perhaps end up with years of surplus on their taxes.

     Of course, I'm speaking here of income taxes, since I don't believe that anybody would be silly enough to believe that anybody in the US gets away without paying any taxes.  There are taxes on clothing, food, adult beverages, cars, gasoline, tobacco products, sales in general and all sorts of things that take a large part out of everybody's supply of money; and these taxes are for the most part regressive taxes and fall most heavily on the poor.

     Even kids pay them when they buy soft drinks.

     So, out of curiosity, how many of that 1% don't pay income tax on a regular basis?

http://www.altweeklies.com/aan/9-things-the-rich-dont-want-you-to-know-about-taxes/Story?oid=3971382

      
 
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