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Passions in Poetry

Occupy Wall Street

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Balladeer
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75 posted 10-10-2011 11:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

'Unfortunately, we have a very high turnover rate, and nobody as of yet has come up with official diversity related statistics for us.'

A poor effort at CYA. I see no "junk data" at all and pics bear it out. I've seen over 120 pics that all bear it out. I wonder if they would have offered such excuses while branding tea party gatherings as "racist". I find it unlikely.

DOn't be shocked, Denise. Everyone knows the Obama administration is supporting these "occupations". They are too dumb to not make it obvious.
Bob K
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76 posted 10-10-2011 11:58 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

Those on the left didn't go out of their way to create a joke about the Tea Party, Bob, and it was only funny because the Tea Party had unknowingly signed up to become the butt of a joke, and that those on the left who started using the term did not mean to be crass and cruel? Okie-Dokie!



     The ones who started using the term were the folks in the Tea Party, Denise.  You tried to take over a piece of American history for yourselves, which is understandable and good propaganda.  Nobody asked you to start walking around displaying tea bags stapled to your hats and to your lapels.  I myself wouldnít have been in the know enough to have warned you against it.  It was a slow motion public relations nightmare.  Nobody set you up for it, but once you were there, darn it, it was funny.

     As a group, I canít think of another that seemed as upset by the gay community, and to see the Tea Party make an enormous blunder of this sort was simply a gift that kept on giving, like that mistakes that teachers sometimes make in classes of adolescents that will set the class off with gales of self perpetuating laughter.  After a while the class for the most part would rather cut their own throats than continue laughing, but there it is again, Ms. Freezebinder actually said that thing about Tarpons in public.  Then she said that thing about ďAre you going to keep laughing all period, and I just wish I could crawl under the table, except I canít stop laughing.Ē

     Nobody tossed the foolish banana peel under the feet of the Tea Party, Denise.  They stepped proudly in the thing themselves, secure in the knowledge that it was the right thing to do.  And thatís another reason why it ended up being funny.


quote:

The demographics from what I have seen appear to be misguided college-age students being taken advantage of by communist and union organizations, with a shout-out of support from the Administration AND Hugo Chavez! But hey, aren't we all socialists/communists now?!



     I dealt with the demographics issue at a little length in my above response to Mike.  

     I speculate that the categories you propose would be interesting to try to quantify.  There would be a fascinating question of inter-rater reliability to deal with.  How would you propose developing standards so that all your raters would agree on what a ďmisguided college-aged studentĒ might be, for example?

quote:

They also appear to be 99.99% White. Ooops. Does that mean they are RACIST?!



     I voiced my problems with that question in my reply to Mike.  My assumption that your figure of 99.99% is hyperbole, since I have yet to see any actual demographics, as I mentioned above, and the worry that Mr. Bruner voiced seems genuine enough.  Nevertheless, itís an interesting question, and it should be answered, which is why I suggest the need for actual demographic study so that some outreach might be done if there is a problem.

     Whatís your thought on the matter?  Do you think these folks are actually racist, or are you furious at the treatment you feel the Tea Party has gotten and welcome a chance to turn the question on the people whom you feel have treated the Tea Party so unfairly?  That would be assuming, of course, that these protestors and the previous critics are the same people.  

     When I say ďorĒ in this case, it suggests that there are only two possibilities, and that is certainly not the case at all, it is merely rhetorical impoverishment on my part and an unwillingness to put this note through several extra drafts to iron out these places where my bad writing pokes its nose under the tent wall and sneezes inelegantly.  The protestors seem to me to be more uncertain and indecisive and angry at the economic jam weíre in and at the part that they feel some of the banks and the brokers and the insurance companies and the financial industry ó or the more unregulated and mismanaged part of it at least ó have played in all this.

     If that is the crux of their discontent, then I must say I am in basic agreement, and I would suspect that you may have some agreement with at least some of the things theyíre getting at too.  We really have been unkind to the pooch in the country over the past ten years, and I think that both parties have had a part in it.

     I donít want to put words in your mouth, so I wonít even try to say any more; Iím simply interested in what you have to say about this.  I simply donít think itís a matter of liberal and conservative at all.


quote:

I didn't say the 'Occupiers' were freeloaders, though some may well be. According to an ad in Craig's List some are even being paid to be there. So I guess for some of them it's a temporary job...or according to Nancy Pelosi's dictionary....a spontaneous grass roots movement...lol.



     I made of point of saying ďFreeloaderĒ was my word; and youíre right to correct me if thatís not what you meant.  Thank you.

     I donít know what you mean about the ad in Craigís list, but Iíd ask you to use your own good thinking on that for a moment.  An ad means that somebody has paid a publisher money to say something  they wouldnít have published for free.  When I publish a poem or an article I want some sort of payment, money or copies, in return; I donít pay somebody else unless theyíre doing something for me.

     So if there are people being paid to be there, I want to join them.  Let me know where I can find these people so I can get paid to do something like that in my city.  Iíve been thinking of doing it for free, but the possibility of getting paid has made the whole thing absolutely irresistible.  Just let me know where I can collect my dough, and I be there, and Iíll see if I can bring along some old radical friends and maybe we can make a party of it.  If you can find the address where theyíre handing out this free money, why donít you show up their, collect the money and go home, and bring your tea party friends, collect the dough and donate it to the tea party candidate of your choice.

     In fact, if you really believe a rumor like that one, you could probably fund your whole party on that money; go for it.  Think how sweet it would be to elect somebody from your neck of the political spectrum from money passed out the international conspiracy of people who hate anything really really American.

quote:


A couple of people interviewed said they were there mostly for the free sex and cheap drugs.



     Yeah, yeah, sure; lotta darn good that does me.
Bob K
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77 posted 10-11-2011 12:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     My mistake, Denise, the ad looks genuine, but it is an ad for organizers and not for folks simply showing up to protest.  You were a touch misleading.
Balladeer
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78 posted 10-11-2011 12:43 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Organizers works. The administration is putting out ads to hire people to organize...that is more palatable?

Unions and other organizations are paying the participants. That more palatable, too?

It's hardly a grass roots movement when Obama,'s people are doing the hiring.
Local Rebel
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79 posted 10-11-2011 03:38 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Mike,

It's only a pejorative if there's something wrong with capitol punishment-a reputation sizzlin Ricky has worked long and hard to earn -- so why would you suggest my mentioning it is a 'dig'?

Does a corporation have a right to get married? vote? get a drivers liscence? Why should it then, have the right to free speech?  Can it be convicted of a crime and serve time?  How, exactly, is a corporation a person?

serenity blaze
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80 posted 10-11-2011 04:38 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"It's hardly a grass roots movement when Obama,'s people are doing the hiring."

I need some more info on this please.



Denise
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81 posted 10-11-2011 08:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Tea Party name came from Rick Santelli during his 'rant' against the proposed   paying of people's mortgages by taxpayers, Bob. The pejorative 'teabaggers' was courtesy of someone from MSNBC. Can't recall his name at the moment.

If you want to be paid, Bob, use the contact info in the ad. That's probably the easiest way to go about it. I don't think Patrick will be taking replies to the ad directly in his White House office, but  maybe you can try that too!
Balladeer
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82 posted 10-11-2011 09:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Occupy Fort Lauderdale wrote: "And the entire base of broad freedoms in this country from groups of people who are forced to break laws in order to win. The entire middle class was built on workers virtually occupying private workplaces. That is how a job that was a sweatshop job in 1925 turned into those rhetorically useful "good jobs" that everyone complains got sent over seas. Well, they did get sent over seas, but they were sent over precisely because they were so good for the workforce. The womens movement consistently was forced to break laws, agitate, cause trouble, etc.. in order to win. And obviously the civil rights movements constantly hit private targets day in and day out. The lesson here is that in order to win---you must mobilize your forces, know whose side you are on, etc.. and then tactically do things in such a way that you prevent the normal functioning of society until your demands are met. We don't have our base of support large enough yet in order to line this up. But once we do, all the protesting and demonstrating in the world won't mean much until more decisive direct action is taken. That's how it worked in each of the 3 above historical examples, and I don't think it will be much different this time...at least if history is to be our guide on matters like this."

...and so the stage is being set on why breaking the law with regards to the demonstrations is justifiable and right.
Balladeer
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83 posted 10-11-2011 09:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LR, first of all, your query as to whether corporations have a right to free speech was directed at Karen, not me. As far as your dig is concerned, playing dumb is not one of your strong points.

get married
vote
get a driver's license
Be executed by the governor of Texas

Which one of those seems just a little off the wall? That "who, me??" look ain't making it. You saw an opportunity to slip in a shot at Perry and you took it....no big deal. Slipping politics in is not a new adventure for you but, trying to pretend you didn't is a little, uh, silly.  
Local Rebel
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84 posted 10-11-2011 12:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Again you deflect and avoid.

Denise, you're not correct in your recollection.  
http://web.archive.org/web/20090315082733/http://www.reteaparty.com/
Huan Yi
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85 posted 10-11-2011 01:57 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi



ďUnfortunately, the country has been wasting this winter of recuperation. Nothing of consequence has been achieved over the past two years. Instead, there have been a series of trivial sideshows. Itís as if people canít keep their minds focused on the big things. They get diverted by scuffles that are small, contentious and symbolic.

Take the Occupy Wall Street movement. This uprising was sparked by the magazine Adbusters, previously best known for the 2004 essay, ďWhy Wonít Anyone Say They Are Jewish?Ē ó an investigative report that identified some of the most influential Jews in America and their nefarious grip on policy.

If there is a core theme to the Occupy Wall Street movement, it is that the virtuous 99 percent of society is being cheated by the richest and greediest 1 percent.
This is a theme that allows the people in the 99 percent to think very highly of themselves. All their problems are caused by the nefarious elite.

Unfortunately, almost no problem can be productively conceived in this way. A group that divides the world between the pure 99 percent and the evil 1 percent will have nothing to say about education reform, Medicare reform, tax reform, wage stagnation or polarization. They will have nothing to say about the way Americans have overconsumed and overborrowed. These are problems that implicate a much broader swath of society than the top 1 percent.
They will have no realistic proposal to reduce the debt or sustain the welfare state. Even if you tax away 50 percent of the income of those making between $1 million and $10 million, you only reduce the national debt by 1 percent, according to the Tax Foundation. If you confiscate all the income of those making more than $10 million, you reduce the debt by 2 percent. You would still be nibbling only meekly around the edges.  .  .  .

The Occupy Wall Street movement may look radical, but its membersí ideas are less radical than those you might hear at your average Rotary Club. Its members may hate capitalism. A third believe the U.S. is no better than Al Qaeda, according to a New York magazine survey, but since the left no longer believes in the nationalization of industry, these ďradicalsĒ really have no systemic reforms to fall back on.  .  .


The thing about the current moment is that the moderates in suits are much more radical than the pierced anarchists camping out on Wall Street or the Tea Party-types.

Look, for example, at a piece Matt Miller wrote for The Washington Post called ďThe Third Party Stump Speech We Need.Ē Miller is a former McKinsey consultant and Clinton staffer. But his ideas are much bigger than anything you hear from the protesters: slash corporate taxes and raise energy taxes, aggressively use market forces and public provisions to bring down health care costs; raise capital requirements for banks; require national service; balance the budget by 2018.

Other economists, for example, have revived the USA Tax, first introduced in 1995 by Senators Sam Nunn and Pete Domenici. This would replace the personal income and business tax regime with a code that allows unlimited deduction for personal savings and business investment. Itís a consumption tax through the back door, which would clean out loopholes and weaken lobbyists.

Donít be fooled by the clichťs of protest movements past. The most radical people today are the ones that look the most boring. Itís not about declaring war on some nefarious elite. Itís about changing behavior from top to bottom. Letís occupy ourselves. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/opinion/the-milquetoast-radicals.html?_r=1&ref=opini on

.
Bob K
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86 posted 10-11-2011 02:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     One of the virtues of a good Liberal Paper is that to allows decent air time to people whose views dissagree with the basic editorial stance of the paper.  Brooks is always thoughtful and entertaining, and frequently stimulating to read, and he certainly has more than earned his place in The  New York Times, which has tried to give good space to conservatives.

     I'm glad you gave me a chance to have a look at a well reasoned alternative point of view.  I'm not sure that I'd want to depend on The Tax Foundation for my information, but to be fair I'm not sure I've given much thought abou where I might find neutral information about such stuff.
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87 posted 10-11-2011 03:40 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

New video with "protestors" from James O'Keefe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEq5w2-6X14
Local Rebel
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88 posted 10-11-2011 03:52 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

James O'keefe?  Really?  Really?

Try this one instead:
http://vimeo.com/30081785
Denise
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89 posted 10-11-2011 05:59 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

How was I wrong in my recollection, LR? Santelli mentioned having a Chicago Tea Party in July at the end of the clip. Other gatherings around the country took place just prior to that in April 2009, I think some even earlier than that. I believe from the date that I could determine of the 'rant' it was in February, and it is believed that his expression of outrage was what really jump-started the Tea Party movement.
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90 posted 10-11-2011 07:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So now the protestors are marching on the CEO's houses. What a novel idea...oh, wait. It's not! The SEIU did the same thing,,,and so did ACORN while Obama was training them. Birds of a feather....?
Denise
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91 posted 10-11-2011 07:56 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Imagine that, Michael. Nothing new under the sun.

Karen, here is the Obama connection through his top political advisor, the one whose organziation placed the Craigs List ad:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/shocker-obamas-top-political-advisor-directly-linked-to-occupy-wall-street-protests/
Huan Yi
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92 posted 10-11-2011 10:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Iíve noticed that some have beards and some wear glasses
so maybe they know what theyíre talking about.


.
Bob K
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93 posted 10-12-2011 01:07 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

So now the protestors are marching on the CEO's houses. What a novel idea...oh, wait. It's not! The SEIU did the same thing,,,and so did ACORN while Obama was training them. Birds of a feather....?



     I thought you might understand if I printed out the first paragraph on smear campaign, smear tactic or simply smear from Wikipedia.  There is considerably more there, of course.

quote:

A smear campaign, smear tactic or simply smear is a metaphor for activity that can harm an individual or group's reputation by conflation with a stigmatized group. Sometimes smear is used more generally to include any reputation-damaging activity, including such colloquialisms as mud slinging. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smear_campaign



     There are people who admire a smear campaign.  I think both political parties use them, but I find it difficult to understand the utility here.Those who already agree with you will be busy nodding, those who disagree will be busy shaking, and Iím unclear what you hope to gain in terms of the discussion.  Of course the protestors are marching on the CEOís houses, in the same way that a whole generation of protesters marched on the pentagon and on the White House, and in the same way a whole generation of vets marched on Washington to get their WWI bonus money.  Iíd say that saying that marching on somebodyís house or somebodyís center of power is pretty natural.  Didnít the Children in the Childrenís crusade march first to Rome?  

     Itís part of the idealistic impulse, to take your beef to the head honcho; to give the boss a piece of your mind.  Itís part of the belief that maybe if the guy actually understands what the situation really is, heíll do something to make it right.  The boss canít really be all that bad.  Heís human.  Heís gotta have a heart someplace.

     Hoover sent in the cavalry, and pretty much physically wiped out a lot of sick, hungry and unemployed vets.  The Pope sent the kids to Jerusalem.  Most of them died on the way or were sold into slavery.  Kids and hungry vets, among the many others that fit the description of the people you attempted to slime for reasons I havenít yet fathomed.  By hooking them up with community organizers and union members, which you seem to assume that the rest of us find as distasteful as you do.

     Iíve had good and bad experiences with unions.  Iíve also had good and bad experiences with administrations and businesses.  


quote:

Organizers works. The administration is putting out ads to hire people to organize...that is more palatable?

Unions and other organizations are paying the participants. That more palatable, too?

It's hardly a grass roots movement when Obama,'s people are doing the hiring.



      Nope.

       From my look at the ad, it appears there is a separate local political party that is doing the funding.  This doesnít feel entirely kosher to me, since thatís a lot of money to be funneling into organization for a party nobodyíd heard of a few days back, so Iím very curious where that source may be.  I think itís being handled very badly, not even as well as the Koch brothers funding for the Tea Party start up, and that was pretty direct and easily traced.  So I really want to know.

     I donít think that an attachment to the democratic party is very smart, and I think that President Obamaís connection is quite tepid, as is the connection of every other Democratic big-wig that Iíve seen.  I think they want a way to disengage if it goes bad, and theyíre uncertain exactly what the purpose of the demonstrators may be.

     It may be unions are helping with funding, but the unions are pitiful shells of what they once were, and are under attack.  Iím uncertain how much they can contribute.  ďOther organizationsĒ is simply another way of saying what Iím saying; you havenít a clue.

     You still havenít gotten the point if you can allow yourself to toss in that final sentence.

     How long after the demonstrations appeared did the ad appear?  Five days, a week, two weeks?  Pretend to think like an intelligence analyst as a role playing game and see what you can extrapolate from the situation.  Think of it as an exercise in developing fiction writing skills for plotting:  Being a writer gives you all sorts of liberties to play these sorts of games.

     If there are as many protesters in the street as the newsies claim, itís not going to be a paid group.  Especially not in October across the country, and especially not at 350.00 to 650.00 dollars per week.  Most if not all of those folks are probably volunteers and theyíve been drawn out ó probably ó by anger at the economic situation.  You yourself are angry at the economic situation.  You blame the Democrats, and that solves your problem.  These folks are angry at the Democrats and the Republicans.  That explains the fact that they donít know what to say; because they think that both the parties are giving them bogus answers.

     Thatís probably true, as far as Iím concerned.

     If youíre a Democratic big-wig, then, what do you want to do?

     If it were me, Iíd want to get out front and channel that energy in a direction I could use.  I wouldnít want these folks to figure out they were fed up with the way things were going from both sides of the aisle, which might be looking as though they were singing from what appeared to be remarkably similar hymnals.  I would want to channel that energy back into the traditional party argument and I would want people to forget that checks written by many of the same hands were financing the long running soap opera in Washington, DC

     I would want to get middle management types in those demonstrations to channel those energies the ways I wanted them to go, to continue the deadlock, and to keep the gravy train on track.  Thatís why the ad is for non-policy positions.  They already have a pretty good idea what the policy should be; and thatís why the jobs are for folks with skill sets in middle management social organizing.  They donít want these bozos to be thinking for themselves.

     I donít see the Republicans as wanting anything particularly different, since the right wing has been busy keeping the country in a state of deadlock as long as the Democrats have.

     I think the protests are a grass roots movement that hasnít found its focus yet, and that both parties are trying to scuttle it or direct it to their advantage.
Bob K
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94 posted 10-12-2011 01:27 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

Iíve noticed that some have beards and some wear glasses
so maybe they know what theyíre talking about.




     I'm entirely confused about who you're talking about here.  Are you upset about Hasidic Jews, Memonites, Chas Bono and some of his friends, observant Muslim men, the Smith Brothers, Abraham Lincoln, Grant or one of the bearded ladies at the circus that I had disturbing dreams about when I was a kid?  I wear glasses that are fifteen years out of date, which may be one of the reasons that I hate to shave.

     What are you talking about?

     What's goin' on, John?

     Don't be so gnomic, Comic.

    
Local Rebel
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95 posted 10-12-2011 01:52 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Because Denise, it was the Tea Parties that started 'T-baggin' washington, as the wayback machine shows.  Your other facts are accurate though

Bob,  I think John is trying to equate the OWLS wit hippies, because we know how innefective the hippies were at affecting social and political change,  whoops.... there was that war they got us out of, civil rights, womens rights..... other than that, yanno, they didn't do much.  dirty hippies.
Bob K
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96 posted 10-12-2011 02:26 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Oooooh.

     Them, and those beatnick folks.

     Now I get you.

     With the splash on paint and stuff that a six year old could do is what my grandpa used to say, and the poetry you couldn't even rhyme and din't mean anything.

     He shoulda just sed so.
Huan Yi
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97 posted 10-12-2011 01:03 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I heard on NPR coming into work this morning that 80% of US manufacturers
surveyed say they are having difficulty finding skilled labor for their open positions,
(this in a time of 9% unemployment).
  

.
Denise
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98 posted 10-12-2011 01:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

LR, I was having trouble loading the Wayback Machine so I clicked on the link that said Impatient? The only thing that came up for me was the video, so I still don't know what you are talking about. Did someone actually say that they were going to 'T-bag' Washington? If so I missed it. Can you share a link for it?
Essorant
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99 posted 10-12-2011 02:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Where did Uncas go?  
 
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