How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Occupy Wall Street   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ]
 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Occupy Wall Street

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


275 posted 11-06-2011 11:38 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Growing pains?  Irony pains? —

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/04/142031021/ows-donations-create-headaches-for-protesters
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


276 posted 11-07-2011 09:12 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's some brutality for you and it isn't from the '1%'. OWS attacks peaceful people attending Tea Party conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prgkEAuSQT0&feature=player_embedded
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


277 posted 11-07-2011 10:54 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I certainly saw a fair amount of scuffle and heard a fair amount of noise.  There were a lot of big buildings around.  A lot of people were acting impolite to each other.  Some people were walking around with red plastic tape on their jackets and were acting like paramedics.  Others were wearing blue uniforms; but I wouldn't make out actual police insignia, only one sergeant's stripes.

     Not only did the video present no internal evidence that it was what you say it was, it showed no signs of anything approaching professional production values that would suggest it was anything but badly shot propaganda tape.  It had no evience of violence that I could see, only pictures of people making claims after something may have happened.

     Maybe if you could be specific about what you'd like me to look for, I could have another look, Denise, to see if there's something specific I missed in the shuffle?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


278 posted 11-07-2011 02:39 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob's right, Denise. I saw no blood, no broken bones or body parts lying in the streets. There were no woman knocked down, lying on the street (well, maybe, one or two), no fathers trying to get home with their son being blocked (well, maybe one) and, since Speilburg or George Lucas was not in charge of the production of the video, it was not professional enough to be believed. The whole thing was probably stages by evil right wing forces.

For shame......
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


279 posted 11-07-2011 05:39 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/giuliani-obama-owns-occupy-wall-street_607814.html


.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


280 posted 11-07-2011 07:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is Obama's army.
Now they're pushing 78 year-old women down cement stairs.

78-year-old Dolores Broderson is helped up after she was pushed down the stairs by Obama-endorsed Occupy DC protesters outside the Americans for Prosperity Dinner in Washington DC on Friday night.

Daily Caller posted video of two women who were knocked down by the Occupy DC protesters outside the conservative conference dinner. Dolores is the second woman being helped up in the video. Both women look injured.

Ray Patnaude emails: "My wife and I were at the AFP dinner. Some info on the AFP member who was pushed down the stairs by the protestors… she is the second woman the police are helping up in the Daily Caller video. Her name is Dolores Broderson, age 78. She rode on a bus for 11 hours from Detroit to get there. She went to the emergency room with a bloody nose and bruises on her hand and leg."
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/occupy-   dc-protesters-push-78-year-old-woman-down-cement-stairs-at-afp-conference-video/
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


281 posted 11-07-2011 07:51 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thank YOU, Michael and John.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


282 posted 11-07-2011 07:57 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     The Weekly Standard is  echoing party rhetoric here in suggesting that President Obama is indulging in class warfare and that the OWS folks are mirroring his rhetoric..  It’s a particularly ugly piece of rhetoric since it’s an attempt to coopt what’s traditionally a left-wing point of view.  The Right has gotten very good at this in recent years.  Class Warfare is only one of the more recent cooptions on their part; they’ve gotten equally adept at throwing charges of racism around as well.  In this case the notion of the poor conducting class warfare against the rich is particularly noisome, considering the disparity in incomes and exactlyt how thoroughly the rich have been wiping up the floor with the poor for the past thirty years or so.  The closest piece of truth that fits this enormous distortion is that the poor have gotten fed up and seem to be thinking over whether or not they should fight back.  Fighting back is a matter of survival, to keep jobs and income in this country and not ship capital and jobs overseas.  Fighting back should remind us that we are fighting back for our form of government, which is Democracy, which may use whatever form of economics it chooses.  I am personally quite fond of Capitalism, but that doesn’t mean that I think that predatory Capitalism does us a lot of good as a country.  I think it ends up sucking the blood out of a country, actually, for the advantage of a few.  It needs to be put to work for the good of the country; the country should not be put to work for the good of Capital.  

     Mayor Giuliani accepted a speaking engagement to present a pep talk to people who were supporting many of the views of predatory Capitalism.  His speech was a peptalk for that approach to economics and to government as well.  The group he presented that speech to is one that accepts significant funding from the Koch Brothers.  When it comes to Predatory Capitalism, they seem to be The Real Thing.  Not everybody loves Predatory Capitalism.


quote:
Before Occupy D.C. protesters swarmed the Washington Convention Center on Friday night, Mayor Rudy Giuliani delivered a speech to the free market faithful at the Americans for Prosperity conference. In his speech, he made the case that Barack Obama is responsible for the Occupy protests because of his class warfare rhetoric, his demonization of American business leaders (or more specifically those who don't support his campaigns), and his rhetorical support for the increasingly violent movement has given aid and comfort to the mob. Giuliani also made the case that this mob may take down the Obama presidency.
You can see those comments in the video below, followed by events that took place outside the convention center later that night, when protesters attacked AFP members as they tried to leave the building, injuring several of them (including an 78-year-old woman who was pushed down the stairs and had to go to the hospital for her injuries), barricaded the doors to the convention center, and blocked traffic on the streets—keeping law-abiding citizens with jobs from getting where they needed to be, some of whom can be seen in the video below confronting the protesters. According to the Washington Post, the protesters were also provoking violent altercations with neighborhood's residents throughout the night. And the whole time, the chant mob chanted: "This is what democracy looks like."




     The citation to The Washington Post article is inappropriate.  While there may have been violent altercations, the article is about protesters injured by cars and how some drivers left their cars to pick fights with the protesters.  The comment about the fights being with Neighborhood residents is offered as an unconfirmed speculation by the Post.  The source for the pushing incident is the video whose quality I mentioned last night.  Clearly there was an woman who’d been hurt.  I don’t know how it happened.  If it was as a result of the protesters, then charges should be pressed and followed up on firmly.  It doesn’t matter who breaks the law in this regard; there’d better be a good defence for it or there should be punishment for it .  Not a lot of room in between.
This is an excerpt of what Sourcewatch has to say about Americans for Prosperity.   There is more information at the site listed below.  

quote:



This article is part of the Center for Media & Democracy's spotlight on front groups and corporate spin.
Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is a group fronting special interests started by oil billionaire David Koch and Richard Fink (a member of the board of directors of Koch Industries). AFP has been accused of funding astroturf operations but also has been fueling the "Tea Party" efforts. [1] AFP's messages are in sync with those of other groups funded by the Koch Family Foundations and the Koch's other special interest groups that work against progressive or Democratic initiatives and protections for workers and the environment. Accordingly, AFP opposes labor unions, health care reform, stimulus spending, and cap-and-trade legislation, which is aimed at making industries pay for the air pollution that they create. AFP was also involved in the attacks on Obama’s "green jobs" czar, Van Jones, and has crusaded against international climate talks. According to an article in the August 30, 2010 issue of The New Yorker, the Kochs are known for "creating slippery organizations with generic-sounding names," that "make it difficult to ascertain the extent of their influence in Washington." AFP's budget surged from $7 million in 2007 to $40 million in 2010, an election year. [2][3]
http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Americans_for_Prosperity





Now, back to the Standard:
    
quote:

One other note on this protest: While Obama, Democrats, and the liberal media have indeed cheered on Occupy Wall Street, the protesters have been mostly independent of the "professional left." However, those lines are being increasingly blurred. This particular protest was organized by Health Care for Americans Now, a group that has received at least $5 million in funding from George Soros, and $25 million from the Atlantic Philanthropies, a foundation based in Bermuda that has funneled millions of dollars of foreign money into the American electoral system through a quirk in American tax laws that allows Bermudans to contribute to 501(c)(3) and 501(c)(4) organizations which are otherwise barred from accepting foreign funds. Health Care for Americans Now has deep ties to the Obama administration as well. So here you have a Soros-funded group, supplemented by foreign money, organizing an Occupy protest that nearly turned into a riot. And presumably it will take a riot for Democrats and the press to wake up to the threat these protests pose to the communities they've occupied.





I was pleased to note the Weekly Standard take notice of the fact that OWS — in this protest at least — have been mostly independant of the “professional left.”  This piece of reality is not one the Right can often bring itself to mention.  I was pleased to see that funding from George Soros was mentioned in the funding of this protest.  I was then moved to wonder, why it’s so terrible to be funded by Mr. Soros, whose agenda is clear, and why the funding isn’t a matter of public recond on all these political events, and why it isn’t publicized as a matter of course.  I wouldn’t mind knowing where Mr. Soros bestowed his generosity at all, and I assume my Right wing friends would also like to know the same information.  I wouldn’t mind having articles published in the press in general about Mr Soros and his plusses and minuses; I’d like to know what kind of guy he is.  As long as everything is truthful and above-board, I’d think that it would be an exercise in the positive use of the First Amendment.

     I’d also like the same scrutiny Applied to Rev. Moon, to Mr. Scaife, to the Hunt Brothers of past glory, to The Brorthers Koch, to Reverend Robertson and to the relationship of ministries in general and Christian fundamentalist  ministries in particular in financial terms to the Republican Party and to the various branches of government.

     I think an open and honest examination of these relationships would be absolutely fascinating, and that all such information about both parties should be made public, even publicized well in advance of any elections.  In this case, I would be particularly interested in how these monies supported the movement of money toward the most wealthy members of society and to the most well established structures in this society.  Some of these connections would no doubt be to Democrats, who should be voted out of office for maintaining such ties.  And some connections will be to other parties.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


283 posted 11-07-2011 08:04 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You are welcome, Denise  
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


284 posted 11-07-2011 10:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

At the Occupy Phoenix demonstrations, fliers encourage protesters to violently resist police officers, asserting that "you will usually have only two options: submit, or kill the cop." At Zuccotti Park in Manhattan, an Occupy Wall Street protester was sexually assaulted in her tent; according to the New York Post, a woman was raped at the same site a few weeks earlier. In Denver, "Occupy" activists turned on the police, screaming obscenities and knocking a motorcycle cop to the ground. Occupy Oakland grew even more violent, as police were pelted with bottles and rocks, and had M-80 firecrackers thrown at them. And in cities from Boston to Berkeley, Occupy encampments have coincided with surges in vandalism, assault, and theft.

Some individuals have strained to compare the Occupy Wall Street protests to the Tea Party movement. "They're not that different," President Obama told ABC's Jake Tapper. "Both on the left and the right, I think people feel separated from their government." The Daily Show's host Jon Stewart argued: "Here's a group of Americans, disenchanted, railing against big government bailouts…. These protesters, how are they not like the Tea Party?"

But the contrast between the Occupiers and the Tea Partiers could hardly be greater. Tea Party rallies haven't turned public squares into squalid slums or incited protesters to curse the police. What the Occupy movement descended to in less than two months -- the hundreds of arrests, the vandalism, the anti-Semitic rants, the all-night drumming, the public urination -- is like nothing the American public saw in more than two years of Tea Party activism.

http://patriotpost.us/opinion/jeff-jacoby/2011/11/02/occupiers-tea-partiers-and-the-tenth-commandment/
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


285 posted 11-07-2011 11:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Donny Deutch hopes for a "kent State" type moment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_36PZ_qFkg&feature=player_embedded

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


286 posted 11-08-2011 01:44 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

Tea Party rallies haven't turned public squares into squalid slums or incited protesters to curse the police. What the Occupy movement descended to in less than two months -- the hundreds of arrests, the vandalism, the anti-Semitic rants, the all-night drumming, the public urination -- is like nothing the American public saw in more than two years of Tea Party activism.



     I don't know that The Tea Party has tried anything comparable to what the OWS folks have tried, frankly.  The notion of occupying ground hasn't been in the Tea Party vocabulary.  The Tea Party has Rallies or conventions of one sort or another, and they go back home.  I'm not being critical of that; it seems like a perfectly reasonable way of going about things.  Not all Right Wing organizations are using that model, which seems quite a sensible model to me.  Some of the Right Wing Organizations that haven't used that model have in fact run into confrontations with authorities, as one might remember from run-ins with the Branch Davidians, for example, or with some political splinter groups who flirt with large collections of illegal arms.  The Tea Party by and large seems much calmer than many of these groups.  Bless them for that.

     OWS demonstrators would not be the only folks to curse the police, however.  And the attacks on authority and on the laws that support law and justice in this country to my understanding are under solid attack from the right with the Republican attack on Posse Comitatus, use of soldiers  in dealing with domestic disputes, attacks on human rights and attempts to extend human rights to corporations, attempts to abridge rights involving search and seizure and so on.  Such provocations certainly stir up discord.  Support of predatory Capitalism and lack of support and protection for ordinary citizens also constitutes a considerable provocation, as does the dismantling of the protections the people have tried to construct over seventy-five years to keep some measure of security in place against the depredations of the rapacious Class.  These are not necessarily the most wealthy people; they are the people whose sense of responsibility to their fellows is most atrophied and whose estimation of their own necessity most keen.

     Arrests may often be confused by the self-righteous with convictions, but they are not the same at all.  Police on occasion make this mistake when they more than most should be aware of the difference.  An arrest is not a definition of guilt, though many a police officer would like to have you think so.  It's an allegation that needs to be proved.  Of all the hundreds of arrests that are spoken about in the quote above, one can't help but wonder why the speaker doesn't crow about convictions.

     I can't say for sure.  But I can say that they would probably dislike being called out as a liar; and that's what they'd be if they tried to talk about convictions.  Arrests sounds so much like tough talk, though, instead of being a description of giving a bunch of guys in uniforms a chance to beat up a bunch of folks whose ability to defend themselves is limited to throwing sticks and rocks and the occasional fire-cracker against guys with shields and helmets and riot batons designed to do real harm, and who have access to a whole variety of less-lethal and even fully lethal weapons should they feel they need them.

     Almost everybody gets scared in a tight spot; and the folks who don't are usually psychopaths, whose nervous systems don't operate as anything like normal efficiency until they're blasted full of natural and synthetic adrenaline-type products.

     I don't blame the police for suiting up in riot gear.  It's not their business to offer a fair fight.  It's not their business to fight at all; it's their business to cut violence short in as professional and safe and brief a way as they can, and they do that; and for the most part they do it very well.

     But the Tea Party wasn't trying to do anything like what the OWS folks seem to be trying to do.  

     The OWS people seem to me to be trying to do some pump priming to get the economy working again.  They seem to be saying that Predatory Capitalism will kill the country, and that Capitalism needs to have some clear commonsense regulations on it to keep it from destroying the economy of the entire country for the benefit for maybe 1% of the country, and that what the country needs is a widespread prosperity.

     The Tea Party people seem to be saying that we need to be doing more of what's wrecked the economy so far, only this time we should get tough about it.  

     The more we've tried that over the past 30 years, the worse it's gotten.  In AA they say that the definition of Insanity is to keep doing something that's failed.  Reaganomics:  Been there, done that, blown it; doing it again doesn't make any sense at all.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


287 posted 11-08-2011 05:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Been there, done that, blown it; doing it again doesn't make any sense at all.

Nice to see you are against Obama's call for Stimulus II also, Bob.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


288 posted 11-08-2011 05:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Arrests sounds so much like tough talk, though, instead of being a description of giving a bunch of guys in uniforms a chance to beat up a bunch of folks whose ability to defend themselves is limited to throwing sticks and rocks and the occasional fire-cracker against guys with shields and helmets and riot batons designed to do real harm, and who have access to a whole variety of less-lethal and even fully lethal weapons should they feel they need them.

...and then we have...


I don't blame the police for suiting up in riot gear.  It's not their business to offer a fair fight.  It's not their business to fight at all; it's their business to cut violence short in as professional and safe and brief a way as they can, and they do that; and for the most part they do it very well.

So are the police a bunch of guys in uniform, complete with shields, helmets and riot batons designed to do real harm, beating up a bunch of folks unable to arm and defend themselves or  are they professionals acting in a safe, efficient manner to cut violence short? After reading your comments, I have no idea which you believe.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


289 posted 11-08-2011 04:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The comments are about points of view, Mike.  If you speak about arrests as a way of keeping score — as some people are on occasion are wont to do — you loose the perspective of the first point of view.  It is a cruel and uneven struggle, and the police are being utilized as a tool for purposes they may or may not agree with in personal terms.  The people who are running things keep score by talking about the number of arrests, which carefully takes the issue of whether the police have been used justly off the table, doesn't it?  You can "arrest" almost anybody; the challenge comes in making the arrest  stick in legal terms, and most of these — the ones we're talking about here — don't seem to have achieved the same number of convictions as arrests, or anywhere close to the same number.

     To me, this says that the powers of the police have been misused.  The police have been used to provide a show for the  public and for the sponsors of the government officials who are issuing the orders to the police.  In this case, as in so many other cases, the management is making inappropriate use of the labor and the conservative seem to be trying to blame the labor.  It isn't the cops in this case, it's the politicians who're telling the cops what to do.  In this case, the wrong things.

     In the second case Mike is mentioning, I'm talking about the professionalism of cops on the whole.  On the whole, they are professional, especially when professionally directed and not used as a political intervention force.  I like to think that, on the whole, courts have difficulty backing up illegal behavior on the part of anybody, including cops.  Sometimes that means arrests get thrown out.   There's a fairly wide range of behavior that's tolerated from the police by the courts, and generally the police don't abuse it.

     And sometimes they do.

     Perhaps Mike thinks that this is inconsistent of me.  I don't think so.  I think that cops by and large are professional and behave professionally and have a professional set of standards and practices.  Sometimes this doesn't look professional because the use of force is inherently ugly.  The use of force by police is monitored by the courts to make sure it doesn't exceed professional bounds, as it should be monitored.  If officers don't want to be monitored, they should be in less vital professions.  If they exceed professional standards, they should be sanctioned.  

     At what point does Mike have a problem with this?

     At what point is this point of view inconsistent?  

     Police should not be misused for political purposes.  When they are, it undercuts the authority of the police and the relationship the police try to build with the community?  If much of the work the police were doing in relation to OWS were legitimate, then the arrests they were making would be likely to be supported by an equivalent mass of convictions, because the courts would be likely to see things as the police do rather than as the protestors do.

     The Right wing folks who comment here seem to dismiss this as though it weren't a factor, ignoring the damage that is done by misuse of police authority for political purposes.  If they were in fact supportive of the police instead of the right wing political agenda my Right Wing friends defend so unthinkingly, they might take this into consideration.  The assumption they make, it appears to me, is that the laws in place are incorrect, and that the police are being used to enforce the laws that should be there in Ring Wing World, and that's perfectly okay with them.

     Now I have some ideas about what the law should be as well, but being an American, I'd rather have them go through the legal process of being voted on and passed and, if necessary, tested in court before being enforced by the police that are supposed to enforce the laws that bind all of us, and that representatives we have commonly elected have passed.  

     Was it in Phoenix recently that the police kept arresting demonstrators for gathering at night and the courts kept releasing them in the morning because there was no law that made such gatherings illegal?  That sort of thing seems to miss the point of the law entirely and to stray dangerously into the exclusive confines of Right Wing World.  At some point, it might be entertained, the citizens of Phoenix or even of Arizona as a whole thought their liberties would possibly be protected by allowing public gatherings without the benefit of police oversight.  That would be a good conservative point of view, wouldn't it?

     Apparently somebody with the power to command the Phoenix police seems to think differently.

     The police are basically decent guys, and basically professionals.  That doesn't mean they are proof against being misused by management, now, does it?  What part of that is confusing?  What's inconsistant?  What part is wrong?  What do you disagree with?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


290 posted 11-08-2011 07:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The police have been used to provide a show for the  public and for the sponsors of the government officials who are issuing the orders to the police.  In this case, as in so many other cases, the management is making inappropriate use of the labor and the conservative seem to be trying to blame the labor.  It isn't the cops in this case, it's the politicians who're telling the cops what to do.  In this case, the wrong things.

Prove it.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


291 posted 11-08-2011 10:17 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The conviction rate proves it, Mike.  If the orders the police were getting weree legal, the arrests would be upheld.

      If the politicians were convinced, they could appeal.  Think.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


292 posted 11-08-2011 10:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The conviction rate proves nothing. I would say the majority of cases haven't even gone to trial unless you think that a judge sits there and waits for the arrestees to come in so he can pronounce immediate sentence. Besides, what was the conviction rate of those tried? Do you even know?

You leveled charges against both the police and the supposed "higher powers" that told them to disregard the law. Those are pretty serious charges. Prove them if you can.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


293 posted 11-08-2011 10:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

DOlores  Broderson, the 78 year old woman who was pushed down a flight of stairs, gave this account today...

She stated that she and friends were simply trying to leave the convention center and were surrounded by protestors, who linked arms, refused to let them leave, and screamed obscenities at them. One fellow freed his arm and pushed her down a flight of 8 concrete stairs. She was transported to the hospital. She also stated that there were five squad cars of NY police there, doing nothing. They were not getting people away from the COnvention Center or confronting anyone at all. Sorta blows Bob's theory out of the water, I guess.

Here are your protestors, fellas. Be proud.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/78-year-old-conservative-woman-talks-about-occupy-dc-goons-pushing-her-down-stairs-video/

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


294 posted 11-09-2011 12:12 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     What?  It blows my theory of police acting professionally out of the water?  I still think police act professionally most of the time, and I'd be willing to bet that you do too.  That doesn't mean there aren't exceptions, which I already discussed.   I discussed the Phoenix experience as well.

     If the woman was pushed down a flight of stairs, then the person or people who did it should be identified if possible and arrested.  I suspect that in situations like these that the police are not particularly interested in provoking an additional outbreak of violence by their own actions.  That may explain their reluctance to get involved in some of the incidents where people on either side urged the police to intervene.  I wouldn't know, but I could understand how such a thing might happen.  

     I thought the lady had a perfect right to be there and I sympathized with her situation though I didn't agree with her politics.  She should have been safer.  She should not have had to worry about her safety at all, and she should have been able to count not only on the support of the police and her companions, but also the support of the demonstrators as well.  There is a certain moral dimension that they are trying to achieve.  I am assuming that the story the woman is telling is accurate here, as best she can tell it.  It seems better information than I saw on the video, at any rate.

     As for proving the business about the arrests, your comment about the immediacy of convictions is well taken.  Yet many arrests that I recall have been followed up by immediate fines or quick sentences en masse for the demonstrators when the state seemed to have a solid enough case.  Justice was seldom drawn out, and I have my doubts that it's the case with these arrests across the country.  I also do not hear about consequences other than arrests, which in the past have tended to be quickly publicized as a warning to others.  

     Sorry, Mike, I simply don't see it the way you do here.  The actual reports you've been able to come up with of consequences have been few and far between.  And many of the reports of the transgressions of the demonstrators seem to be refuted fairly enough by the demonstrators themselves.

     The ones that I believe have not been refuted thus far are the reports that the New York demonstrators have been poor neighbors to the residents and businesses near their encampment and that the drumming has been a particular problem.  The businesses report that they are suffering financially.  These are for the most part Mom & Pop stores or small businesses with tight cash flows — I hear — and they deserve better.  At least that's my information.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


295 posted 11-09-2011 12:55 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     In looking at the link provided, I was somewhat taken aback to notice the piece of neo-Nazi propaganda included.  The author was apparently convinced that his allusion needed explanation and was careful to supply it, including the original German and a translation.  He was so carried away by his cleverness that he overlooked the fact that he'd gotten his sides mixed up.  The Nazis were Right Wing thugs and butchers who loved the art of the big lie.  They hated the same things that "Mannie" hates and would agree with most of the positions that "Mannie's" taking.  The people that Mannie dislikes, trade unionists, union organizers, leftists and so on, are among the first people the Nazis shipped off to death camps.  

     Mannie and his pals are apparently taking the somewhat tepid endorsements of the Democratic leadership as ownership for the OWS movement as though they'd said something that couldn't be backed away from in a hot second.  There isn't enough of an actual set of principles from the OWS movement at this point to stand behind, as Mike and friends were saying actively in these pages not so many weeks ago.  The party line changed.  Now the former criticism of OWS is gone with the wind and it has become for my Republican friends a mighty monolith of destruction of the American Dream.  

     O what a change a week or two can bring!

     What I hear is the repetitive flapping sound of the Republicans flip-flopping on yet another position to enable the party to paint the President as The Great Satan.  If that means distorting OWS into a vast un-American conspiracy, so what?  Distorting a little reality between friends shouldn't be a problem, should it?  The Right is cranking up the paranoia machine again.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


296 posted 11-09-2011 07:44 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I see. You would key in on one of the viewers of the web page making a remark in the comments section to make some kind of point and badmouth the right?? Do you know who this Manny is? Do you know who his "pals" are that you refer to? Of course not. He's just someone who made a comment. Shall I bring up comments by lefties on pages, too, and paint the commenters as valid representatives of the left. I guess we could start with those who want to kill all of the Jews. Will you accept them as valid leftist spokesmen? C'mon, Bob. Try to discuss the issues and not veer off on such sideroads, please.

I'll ask my question one more time. How many convictions have there been with regards to those arrested? How can you prove your claims that police are being ordered to act against normal police procedures and act illegally? Still waiting for you to prove your claims.
Mistletoe Angel
Deputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 10 ToursDeputy Moderator 5 Tours
Member Empyrean
since 12-17-2000
Posts 34089
City of Roses


297 posted 11-09-2011 02:52 PM       View Profile for Mistletoe Angel   Email Mistletoe Angel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Mistletoe Angel's Home Page   View IP for Mistletoe Angel

I have several updates to share from my neck of the wood.

Oregonian: November 8, 2001 ("The Occupation Loses Another Occupier") ">

The first reinforces my belief that from the beginning there have been many affiliated with the Occupy _______ movement that entered with hopes for more positive discussion and constructive aims in varying degrees..........but have since been overshadowed by more confrontational, ill-tempered rabble-rousers, and who they themselves feel the movement has lost its way.

Thus, I share this just to put into perspective that large swaths of the original, or to some degree still current, participants of Occupy ________ hardly endorse the harassment of passer-bys, pushing elderly women down flights of stairs or the use of Molotov cocktails in protest. Many, I'd dare say most, oppose those sorts of actions.........and have since been abandoning the occupation in droves because they feel hopelessly encumbered and drowned out by the louder, more shriller voices.

*

Oregonian: November 9, 2011

Secondly, a Molotov cocktail exploded at the stairwell of the World Trade Center in downtown Portland last night, and this morning it was confirmed that numerous individuals saw the suspect return to the Occupy Portland camp.

*

Oregonian: November 9, 2011

Finally, the Small Business Advisory Council voted 12-1 today in favor of encouraging the City of Portland to evict campers from Lownsdale and Chapman squares (the site of Occupy Portland)........highlighting how the working class American is more distracted by these protests than the CEOs. Tellingly, the solitary "no" vote came from a floral boutique located three miles from downtown.

*

Namaste,
lisping HIBISCUS


"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other"

Mother Teresa
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


298 posted 11-09-2011 05:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thanks, Noah. Both you and the Oregonian confirm what I spelled out in my post #255 in this thread.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


299 posted 11-09-2011 05:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“This is Obama's army.
Now they're pushing 78 year-old women down cement stairs.”

…………………………….

“Complaints about wealth inequality . . .
have been front and center at Occupy Wall Street protests around the country.”


"It makes us wonder whether the extraordinary amount of resources we spend on retirees and their health care should be at least partially reallocated to those who are hurting worse than them," said Harry Holzer, a labor economist and public policy professor at Georgetown University who called the magnitude of the gap "striking."


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WE    ALTH_GAP_YOUNG_AND_OLD?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-11-07-04-04-09


.................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYTIgcMRdbU&feature=related

.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (11-09-2011 07:33 PM).]

 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Occupy Wall Street   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors