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Balladeer
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250 posted 11-01-2011 11:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

When one has a movement that gets endorsed by:

Communist Party USA
American Nazi Party
Revolutionary Communist Party
Black Panthers
Communist party of China
Hezbollah
International Socialist Organion
Marxist Student Union
Iran and North Korea

Then I would suggest you re-think your movement. To be endorsed by countries that allow no basic freedoms or individual rights should tell you something.
Bob K
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251 posted 11-02-2011 11:19 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     When one takes the trouble to read the footnotes in the article quoted by Denise and Mike, one understands why so many otherwise opposing views would tend to agree about this.  I don't particularly enjoy several of the points of view, and I don't agree with some of the perceptions of the causes of the difficulty, but almost all of these folks have noted that there is a great deal of inequity in the world, and certainly in the US.  They are correct.  They almost all say that the disparity in wealth between the richest and the poorest folks creates an instability in the world in general and in the US in particular.  The Islamists believe that this sort of idiocy will cause the downfall of the West.

     These beliefs do not constitute a support of OWS, if you look at it; though support from Islamists might be the start of some sort of diplomatic point of discussion and might prove useful, this appears merely a further critique of western culture from the outside.  The comments may point out part of the problem with predatory capitalism, which tends to destroy its host unless kept under tight controls.  Capitalism does not have to function this way.

     The comments from the communists and the socialists offer support and solidarity in the struggle against massive economic inequality and the hardship it imposes.  Frankly, it's a message that's a lot more meaningful than the current right wing message that we should turn over more power and control to large economic institutions and allow the Right wing political organizations they own to destroy the economic safety net that this country's built up to deal with this sort of situation since the thirties.  This is after thirty years of destroying enough of the basic protections to produce the slough of despond that we are now wallowing in.

     While I don't like or agree with everyone on the hit-list of unpopular ideas, it seems fairly clear that the folks who wrote the articles in the first place probably depended on researchers and didn't bother to read them; and that they hoped that none of their right wing readers would bother to do so either.  Very few of the ideas in the list, including the ideas from China, Iran and North Korea were ideas that couldn't be understood or weren't relevant to the situation.  They said that Western Capitalism in general and American Capitalism in particular are in trouble.  The Republican party is pretty much campaigning on that issue right now.    

     But even the anti-semitic ideas the Nazis put forward, repulsive as they are, tried to focus on the problems of economic inequity that are blighting our country and much of the world at this time.  

     In general, I "support" the critique that the OWS folks are making. That doesn't make me somebody who supports everything that everybody who says he's affiliated with OWS says, any more than it makes everybody who's a Republican responsible for everything that David Dukes says.    


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252 posted 11-03-2011 07:44 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056887/Oakland-protesters-vandalise-banks-smash-shop-windows.html

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253 posted 11-03-2011 04:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

THE TWO FACES OF NANCY PELOSI
Pelosi on the Tea Party:

I saw this myself in the late 70's in San Francisco, this kind of rhetoric was very frightening and it gave/it created a climate in which we/ violence took place and I wish we would all again curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements that are made.
I think they have to take responsibility for any incitement they may cause.¡± http://romanticpoet.wordpress.com/tag/nancy-pelosi-tea-party/

Pelosi on OWS:
During a press conference Thursday afternoon, House minority leader Nancy Pelosi praised those participating in the ¡°Occupy Wall Street¡± protests. "God bless them," Pelosi said, for their spontaneity. It'Ss independent ¡­ it's young, it's spontaneous, and it's focused. And it's going to be effective.

¡°The message of the protesters is a message for the establishment everyplace,¡± said the House Democrats¡¯ leader. ¡°No longer will the recklessness of some on Wall Street cause massive joblessness on Main Street.¡±

Pelosi did not comment on and was not asked about the law-breaking that occurred during the protest over the weekend. About 700 protesters were arrested by New York City police after the protesters swarmed the Brooklyn Bridge and shut down a lane of traffic for several hours, according to CBS News.

When the Tea Party movement emerged in 2009, then-Speaker of the House Pelosi called them ¡°astroturf and un-American people who were carrying swastikas. http://dancingczars.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/pelosi-on-occupy-wall-street-   protesters-god-bless-them/  


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quote:

Several businesses were heavily vandalized. Dozens of protesters wielding shields were surrounded and arrested.



     I'd be interested in knowing where these folks came from.  I've never seen shields used by protesters at a demonstration, and this particular piece of information — that there were dozens of them — shows up in a number of accounts.  I'd like to know who they are as well.

     The reports about the difficulties in New York, about the friction with the surrounding community, may have some basis in fact.  Apparently drumming is a feature in the protests, and this is a burden for the folks living in the area and for the small businesses that are trying to stay afloat in the area.  
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255 posted 11-03-2011 06:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Knowing where they came from? Bob, just give it a little thought, please. They are the second wave, that's all. They are the calvary after the foot soldiers did their part.

I think some of the orignal protestors realize now they were used, manipulated. They were spurred into action by constant talk of class inequality, rich against poor, 1% taking advantage of 99%, etc, etc, etc, and they decided to protest . Did they protest against the government? No, they went after the banks and corporations. Ok, so they were upset and easy to lead. I have nothing bad to say about them, except the fact they didn't realize they were being used. They acted decently, they cleaned up after themselves, and basically just banded together to express their views. True, they had no solutions or anything but it allowed them to let off steam.

So much for them. Now that they were used to get the ball rolling, the REAL wave comes in....the anarchists, the thugs, the troublemakers, the union goons...in to take over.  The original protestors are not needed any more....and they are beginning to realize it. Many have left. Others are protesting the protestors. The decent ones want nothing to do with what it is turning into.

In the link I gave, there is a picture that says it all...a broken window from a rock or bottle with a sign under it saying, "This is not who we are." No, I can't prove it but I can picture a peaceful demonstrator putting up that sign after seeing the damage, ashamed of what their peaceful protests have turned into.

It's now in the hands of the troublemakers, as I believe it was planned from the beginning, orchestrated by the White House. No, Bob, I know you won't buy that but it doesn't matter to me.  Now that they have shut down the port of a major city, committed repeated acts of vandalism, closed businesses, started fires, smashed windows.....where is condemnation from the left....from Pelosi...from Obama?  If these acts had been conducted by the tea party do you really think Obama would not have condemned it by now? You won't see it. The plan is working well. The original protestors? The decent ones will not be feeling very good about how it has turned out or how they were used.

This whole scenario could have been taken out of The Art of War. Obama is showing that he will stop at nothing to get re-elected. One can only hope it will blow up in his face.
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256 posted 11-03-2011 06:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"It's now in the hands of the troublemakers, as I believe it was planned from the beginning, orchestrated by the White House"


I don't believe this.  I believe they're
simply not letting it go to waste.


.
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257 posted 11-03-2011 06:54 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My opinion, Huan. There was too much talk about class inequality, tax breaks for the rich, evil corporations, CEO bonuses. Every day, every Obama speech touched on them. Every speech at town hall meeting, the same. Was Obama pushing for something like OWS? Absolutely...imho. He's done everything he can to incite the lower classes and the unemployed to rise against the upper class. He's not a dummy. Don't sell him short.
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     I don't even know if all the shields looked the same, Mike.  I'm looking for data.  If I knew the answers, I wouldn't ask or speculate.  If you have any harder information to support the suggestions you're making, I'd be interested in knowing about it; but all I've see so far is the same basic information you referenced in your link shuffled around in a few different ways and spun a bit differently to fit different political agendas.  More information may come out in the news tonight.  I have some serious doubts about union goons, having been part of one or two union demonstrations in my time.  All we had were the same yutzes I was working with five days a week, and none of us could memorize the words to "Solidarity Forever."

     There must have been goons someplace, of course, but I never saw any.  Maybe in management.

     Shutting down that particular shelter may not have been such a great idea, either.  I don't know what the timing of that actually was.  And Oakland has a history of being a fairly radical community with skittish relations with the police.  I don't see the problem with the occupation of an empty building, personally, though setting fires in trash containers was provocative in the extreme.  I'd like to see those responsible for that arrested since it puts the community in danger.  I would also like to see arrests of those responsible for the vandalism of windows and whatever other damage was done.  The demonstrations are supposed to be non-violent.

     The reports say that 70,000 people were there during daylight hours, and that they policed themselves quite well.  Only after that crowd went home did things change.  I'd like to know what happened, not your fantasy or mine about what happened, but the actual events and their sequence as accurately as possible.

     I won't trouble you with my fantasy of what happened.  It should suffice to say that it's different from yours, and that it has no more facts to support it than yours, so I'll say it's perhaps only slightly less plausible than yours because yours had nothing to do with Boston Ballet's entire Corps de Ballet and lots of cocoa butter.  Less plausible but a lot more fun.

     The closer the destination, the more you're slip-slidin' away-hay!
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259 posted 11-03-2011 07:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No problem, Bob. I gave my opinion based on how the scenario appears to me. Your acceptance or rejection of it is immaterial, although I appreciate the time you spend letting me know.
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     You don't need President Obama to get such a thing going.

     The banks, the CEOs, the Insurance Companies, the unemployment, the destruction of the social support network, the cuts in help to the poor, the massive transfer in aid to the rich when reported even with reasonable restraint by a free press has an effect on people.  President Obama is hardly a firebrand leader and he's been much more conciliatory than many on the Democratic side of things would like him to be.  He's much more of a centrist than anything else; and suggesting that he's anything else is simply ignoring how very far to the right the country has come in the past 30 or so years.

     I thought that Ronald Reagan was much too far to the right ever to get elected as president in this country, and he is probably the furthest left a Republican president since seems to have ventured; and quite possibly any president at all.  The health care bill that President Obama got passed is far to the right of the one that Bill Clinton tried to get through.  As an example.

     The class warfare of the rich upon the poor is and has been brutal and increasingly obvious.  The wonder is that the middle class and the poor haven't acted long before this, not that there is this tiny amount of disturbance now.
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261 posted 11-03-2011 07:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Tiny amount of disturbance.....uh, ok

[This message has been edited by Balladeer (11-03-2011 08:08 PM).]

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     Yes, tiny.  Amounts of disturbance around issues like this have toppled governments and led to armed insurrections.  What we have here is a series of pretty much determinedly peaceful occupations and protests across the country, not armed uprisings such as we've seen in the middle east.  Considering the potential amount of rage stirred up about the dissolution of the middle class for the benefit of the super rich, I'd say tiny was not only appropriate but actually a reasonably conservative word choice.  

     Given the sweep of things I stated in the posting upon which you commented, the fact that the comment was upon my word choice in characterizing the degree of national upset strikes me as hysterically funny.  I was puzzled by the lack of smiley faces at the end of it.  Good gracious, me oh my!
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263 posted 11-04-2011 12:43 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It was actually the only part I considered worthy of comment.
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264 posted 11-04-2011 08:00 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“He's done everything he can to incite the lower classes and the unemployed to rise against the upper class.”


“The event was heavily populated by well-paid government employees, with some 18% of Oakland's city workers and 5% of its teachers taking holidays to go rioting against their own city and taxpayers. . .

This is OWS' dirty little secret. They're not the poor or downtrodden. The Daily Caller and New York Post investigated the backgrounds of the 700 people arrested last month for shutting down the Brooklyn Bridge and found nearly all of them to be trust-fund idlers from well-off homes.  “

http://news.investors.com/Article/590526/201111031848/Protest-Turns-Upside-Down.htm
.

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265 posted 11-04-2011 08:11 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Exactly, John. Those ARRESTED were not the lower class or unemployed. That's my point...
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     Never having heard of the paper John was quoting from, I checked it out in Wikipedia.  I found out that it offered business advice, which I was not qualified to assess, and an editorial page.  Wiki included this anecdote about their editorials, which seemed to me to fit the internal contradictions inherent in the editorial whose link I followed.
     Wiki said:

quote:

Investors Business Daily also carries editorials and columns on topics from "economics and government to politics and culture".[4] It carries columns from writers "On The Left and On The Right",[5] including L. Brent Bozell, Richard Cohen, E. J. Dionne, Victor Davis Hanson, Charles Krauthammer, and Thomas Sowell. Pulitzer-winning cartoonist Michael Ramirez has worked for IBD since late 2005. Investors Business Daily also publishes editorials skeptical of peak oil and global warming, often proposing alternate solutions. The Times characterized IBD as a "right-wing newspaper".[6]
On July 31, 2009, an editorial at IBD, criticizing Barack Obama's healthcare plans, claimed that Stephen Hawking "wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."[7] As Hawking was born and has always lived in the United Kingdom, and receives his medical care from the British National Health Service, the editorial was widely criticized for its inaccuracy.[6][8][9] The online version of the editorial was later corrected to remove and apologize for the implication Stephen Hawking didn't live in the UK, but did not apologize for implying the NHS would judge Stephen Hawking's life as 'worthless'[10] but IBD continued to defend the original editorial, calling the mention of Hawking a "bad example" and accusing those that mentioned their error of "chang[ing] the subject."[11] Hawking responded to the editorial by saying: "I wouldn't be here today if it were not for the NHS... I have received a large amount of high-quality treatment without which I would not have survived."[12]
[edit]



     Exactly what the point was that Mike said he was making  remains unclear.  Presumably, if we are to know  exactly what the point it that is being made, that point should not be so obscure as to puzzle a reasonably literate reader, so I would appreciate an explanation pitched to a level that even my poor powers of understanding might make sense of it.  If I don't understand, the odds are that somebody else whose less bold about their ignorance is simply politely keeping silent.

    
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267 posted 11-04-2011 06:03 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, I feel my stance was made to be clear enough to any reasonably literate reader. I have no time or desire to repeat it ...

[This message has been edited by Ron (11-04-2011 07:34 PM).]

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268 posted 11-04-2011 08:25 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Mester Make,

I went yo ta no det me an ma dag git it


.
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269 posted 11-04-2011 09:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, john. My regards and a pat to Rufus!
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270 posted 11-04-2011 10:09 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     I was not asking about your stance, Mike.  Your stance is clear.  Your stance is also personal, and I was trying to keep my question focused on the subject and what you actually meant about the subject.  What you actually meant about the subject was not clear.

     Your earlier comment was about a plan constructed in the President's office to swing the election.  It requires a level of planning and skill and coordination that no Democrat I have met has ever been capable of mustering.  It also requires a level of skill in the management of mobs that mobs do not respond to.  As a condition for the acceptance of this plan, the right wing uses evidence that appears to require the public almost literally buy a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge.  

     Mike says that the plot that he is describing about thugs trying to take over the country on the direction of sinister forces from the White House is exactly the conclusion come to in an article that John quotes.  I can't evaluate the information this paper offers about investment.  I offered a quote about the quality of their editorial policy in which they made assertions about Stephen Hawking which were not only wrong, but were wildly, risibly, foolishly wrong, and which were in fact rebutted by Hawking himself.

     The quotation offered by John in his excerpt and the article itself were riddled with "difficulties."

quote:


“The event was heavily populated by well-paid government employees, with some 18% of Oakland's city workers and 5% of its teachers taking holidays to go rioting against their own city and taxpayers. . .



     These figures are unsourced.  If they were accurate, and their accuracy is possible for all I know, since I haven’t sourced them myself, I would suggest that OWS presents itself as a broad-based organization, one the attempts to represent the 99% of people who have been in many ways left out of the boom enjoyed by the 1% over the past 30 years in general, and the past 10 years or so in particular.  Many of these people are lucky to be earning the same as they were in 1980.

     The article makes no attempt to say what percentage of the crowd was made up of these people, I notice, it only says it was “heavily populated.”  Is that 10%, 30%. 90% or what; and how large was the crowd itself?      

quote:

This is OWS' dirty little secret. They're not the poor or downtrodden. The Daily Caller and New York Post investigated the backgrounds of the 700 people arrested last month for shutting down the Brooklyn Bridge and found nearly all of them to be trust-fund idlers from well-off homes.  “



     I beg your pardon?

     All I’ve ever heard the OWS folks say is that they’re not in the top 1% and they think that an economic system that greatly advantages those folk at the expanse of most other folk is a bad investment for a democracy.  In fact, that’s pretty much a description of an oligarchy, isn’t it?  Is C. Wright Mills’ classic The Power Elite still in print someplace?  Has anybody read it?

     There is no dirty little secret here.  The fact that there are downtrodden among us and that they’re part of the 99% doesn’t mean that they have time to take away from the daily work of survival to go demonstrate someplace.  Where does this meat-headed investor’s guide get that idea?  The whole point of the OWS is that it draws supporters from the very people that were once so completely caught up in the American dream that they were blind to how thoroughly they were being manipulated.  

     The problem is that if they’re given a little bit of money and middle class status back, they’ll go back to sleep.  That’s what happened in the thirties and forties.  The middle class went back to sleep.

     The problem with the whole “trust fund idlers from well-off homes” routine these days is that there isn’t very much of the middle class left, so you won’t find a lot of trust fund idlers there, and the more monied classes, well, you may have some of them out on the picket lines, but it’s unlikely they’ll be the ones from the 1%, is it?  So they’re just more of us, a little bit better off, but still looking at what the country’s turned into and not liking it very much.  

     You don’t need to posit sinister plots to come up with the current scenario, though, do you?

[Edited - Ron]

     What is exactly what you meant, Mike?  Which of those ideas did you buy into that youy thought supported the thought of a Democratic plot to swing the election?  Rather than the liklihood of years of economic stagnation  and political roadblocks due to trickledown economics have allowed to ultra rich to drain the country of profit and ambitioin, and that the rest of us are finally getting upset about the situation.  Which way the election will go seems completely up in the air, but the level of resentment against the rich will probably be a real factor.

[This message has been edited by Ron (11-05-2011 10:09 AM).]

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271 posted 11-05-2011 01:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The problem with the whole trust fund idlers from well-off homes routine these days is that there isn't very much of the middle class left

Well, let's  see. A little over 50% pay no taxes so they are not the middle class. The upper one percent (that pay 40% of all income taxes) and not the middle class. That leaves around 49%  unaccounted for. Even shaving off a few from both sides, those who pay taxes but are still in the poverty level and those who are well off but not reaching the 1%, you still have a very large group who fall into the "middle class" range. Not very much, you say? Prove it.

Which way the election will go seems completely up in the air, but the level of resentment against the rich will probably be a real factor.

Thank you, Bob. You prove my assertion. That level of resentment may well indeed be a factor and that's why Obama is pushing it so hard. That's why every speech refers to "tax breaks for the rich" somewhere in it. That's why he always includes corporate executive bonuses whenever he feels like it. He does everything he can to push that resentment because he knows that's his only chance of re-election. He certainly can't go on his record, which is abysmal in every category. He needs the "bad guy". What better bad guy than the rich, right? There are many more poor people than rich ones....and many more votes to capture from the poor. He is courting those votes by assuring those people that they are victims of those evil rich devils, who pay almost half of the country's income tax.

The class warfare of the rich upon the poor is and has been brutal and increasingly obvious.  The wonder is that the middle class and the poor haven't acted long before this...

Increasingly obvious for sure. How? By Obama pointing it out daily and by the democrats using it as a talking point, as you are doing now. Let me ask you to ask yourself a question. I don't want the answer. How is your life? I assume you are not one of the 1%ers. Do you feel your life is miserable because of the evil rich folks? Do you feel the brutality you point out is happening to you? My guess would be no. The wonder is that the poor and middle class haven't acted before this? Maybe it's because they haven't had a president to point out how miserable and badly treated they are. Maybe, not having that exhilarating information, they actually thought they had a decent life with their 2 bedroom, one bath dwelling, their 4.2 year old car and their 2.3 children. Maybe this middle class that you wonder why haven't revolted were too busy being happy and content without having a leader pounding in their heads how miserable they were supposed to be feeling.

C'mon, Bob. That trick falls right into your category of work. You know very well that if 10 people tell a fellow he looks sick, even though he began the day feeling fine, by the end of the day he will actually feel sick. That's exactly the same tactic Obama is using. He WANTS people to feel miserable. He WANTS them mad at someone,, anyone, besides him...in this case, the rich. He is counting on their rebellion and the fact that they are so easily manipulated.

Did he plan the OWS? No, but he hoped some type of rebellion would happen and, when it did, he, along with the unions, took advantage of it and moved in. There is a chance it will blow up in his face. One can only hope. He has shown once again that the welfare of the United States and the people is of little importance to him. His own personal future and his redistribution of wealth agenda, even if attained through violent means, is what interests him.
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272 posted 11-05-2011 03:57 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, If you wish me to address your questions, you have a question on the table to address first.  I need an explanation I can follow and understand of the material I discussed above.  Insults do not make me understand .  Comments about my stupidity, explicit or implicit, do not make things clear at all.  Comments written by John’s dog may claim to understand what you’re saying, but Rufus hasn’t mastered spell-check, and is hard to read and understand in turn.

     Apparently the Dog understood the quotation from John’s article, but that makes the dog’s point of view suspect, since the essay in question was a tangle of half-truths and contradictions.  The dog probably didn’t understand that, so you or John should have pointed these things out.  Though all three of you apparently understood your comment to John.

     Like the article, it all came across as a big jumble of contradictions to me.  I couldn’t even understand what the actual referent was when you were talking about that being exactly what you meant.  I’ve pointed out this issue with wandering referents in political speech from time to time in the past.  The Pronouns become very flexible and seem to switch to mean whatever the writer wants them to mean at the moment, so the actual meaning of the sentences dissolves like sugar in hot tea.

     This was one of the content issues that I was wanting clarification on from you.  John said he understood it, but then I didn’t see John offering any specific nomination for referent either, and for any sort of clarification to take place, that would have been the minimum needed; that and some way in which all reasonable doubt could have been put aside as to how a naive reader might follow such a connection.  I certainly couldn’t follow any connection that Mike was making, and I looked.

     So, please, let me know what the answer is to my question and I’ll be pleased to go about answering the questions you seem to be raising for me here.
Balladeer
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273 posted 11-05-2011 07:38 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Bob, it's not necessary for you to address my questions. Actually, don't bother. I have no idea what you are referring to with your comments or what questions you want answered that I am supposedly avoiding...and I'm not even interested any longer. I stated my thoughts and opinions on the matter and, if you can't understand them, then so be it. I'm not going to have a Maalox moment over it. It's time to move on. Elvis has left the building.
Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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274 posted 11-05-2011 05:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I didn't think so.
 
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