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Occupy Wall Street

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Huan Yi
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225 posted 10-29-2011 10:16 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“At a million-dollar San Francisco fundraiser today, President Obama warned his recession-battered supporters that if he loses the 2012 election it could herald a new, painful era of self-reliance in America.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/obama-if-we-l ose-in-2012-government-will-tell-people-youre-on-your-own/


How that sentence got past the editor at ABC . . .
The Right is undercover everywhere.


.


Balladeer
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226 posted 10-29-2011 11:49 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Self-reliance??? That WOULD be scary to may people!
Bob K
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227 posted 10-29-2011 04:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     Among other things, we have a cultural and religious issue here.  When I studied aikido as a young man, every time we stepped into the dojo, we bowed twice, from the floor.  The first time was to a picture of the O-sensei, who put the art together; the picture was on an altar at the front of the dojo.  The second time, it was to the mat.

     I could understand bowing to the O-sensei; he was as much philosopher and saint as he was warrior, but the mat?

     One of the senior students explained it succinctly:  "We bow to the mat that keeps us from breaking our backs," is what she said.  

     But it was more complex that even that.  It epitomized a mind-view that has some uniquely buddhist elements that you can see in the study of aikido and many other of the Japanese martial arts.  It suggests that there is a web of obligations that you owe those about you and the art itself that you can only repay by a constant return of right actions.  When training, you are respectful of your partner.  Your partner is not your enemy, he or she is your helper in the learning process, and you want to help preserve them so they will be there to practice with you tomorrow.

     In this regard, to think about self reliance in life is a childlike illusion.  You do not know how to do proper leading of incoming force.  You do not understand one-pointedness or Ki.  You depend not only on your sensei to show you and guide you, but on your fellow students to throw you so you can practice falling.

     Gradually it dawns on you that this particular martial art is not the only this like this.

     Is there something wrong with being self-reliant?  

     That would have to depend on how you view self-reliance, and what relationship you believe that puts you in with others, wouldn't it?  Some kinds of self-reliance are enormously destructive to others and can and often do provoke retaliation.  Predatory Capitalism can fall into this category.

     I offer, as examples, two similar situations a hundred years apart without going into a lot of detail.  The predation began with profit motive in mind and became political in both cases.  In the first case, the British wanted a market for opium and forced a market open in China, starting the opium wars to help out the East India Company.  Today, the various drug cartels are vying for market share in the US.  These cartels are models of Predatory Capitalism, which have formed to fill the need of an artificially created market.  They are examples of self-reliance run amok.

     They are examples of what happens when one player  in a system forgets that he or she is only a member of a self-regulating system.  The system tends to self-correct when everything is functioning well.  That's when everything is going well.

     Somebody else will have to write the chapter on chaos theory.

     In the meantime, now that you folks have yours, what about the people that used to have theirs in the middle class, and now, acting as self-reliantly as they could and through no particular fault of their own, don't.  What would the self-reliant thing be for them to do to you?

     Or do you have different models for how you are supposed to act self-reliantly in relation to others and for how others are supposed to act self-reliantly in relation to you?  If the wealthy can get welfare from the poor at least as far back as the railroads getting enormous land-grants on either sides of their free rights of way across the West and currently in terms of tax cuts and other goodies, why shouldn't the poor get them from the pockets of the rich as well?  Why is one Okay and the other not?

     Self-reliance, my Grandfather's popsicle franchise.
Local Rebel
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228 posted 10-29-2011 04:30 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Poor schmoor.

They should do the time honored traditional thing that built this country.  Hard work.  If. they cant find jobs they should either sell themselves into indentured servitude, or capture and enslave someone who does have a job so they can CAPITALize on their hard work.  You know, the hard work that built this nation.
Balladeer
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229 posted 10-29-2011 05:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hard work is a concept lost on many these days....and I had no idea your grandfather has a popsicle franchise!!
Bob K
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230 posted 10-29-2011 05:22 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

     Didn't.  But they were both cool dudes anyway.

     Hard work didn't save lots of people whose jobs got traded out from underneath them, or whose jobs were downsized, or whose jobs their managers got bonuses for eliminating..  Nor are those people lazy, as I see a lot of Republicans suggesting.  These losses are artifacts of an economic slowdown which the Republicans seem to be making worse by voting against the pump priming measures that have worked in dealing with such events in the past.

     Capitalism is a fine economic system, but it needs to be watched carefully to keep it from running away with itself.  In terms of systems, feed-back loops keep systems in control fairly successfully while feed-front loops tend to send systems racing out of control and into self destructive speed-ups that the system can't tolerate very quickly.  Economies function that way; steering works that way; and engines work that way.  So do unchecked populations.  I believe the result is roughly the same in each case and can — I think — be graphed as a J-curve, starting out slowly, then rising very quickly indeed to a catastrophic end.

     Maybe somebody with more math than I have might check me on this.  The catastrophic crash for feed front governing seems clear.  The nature of the curve does apply to populations without controls with no limits in food and no significant predation, and is the standard Malthusian curve.  My intuition suggests its applicability to the other situations.

     We've been busy taking controls off Capitalism for thirty years.  Overcontrol:  Bad.  Too much encouragement with no brakes:  Worse.  The system becomes increasingly chaotic and unstable.

     Just sayin'.

[This message has been edited by Bob K (10-29-2011 05:55 PM).]

Huan Yi
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231 posted 10-29-2011 11:45 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Safety Commissioner Bill Gibbons said it was unrealistic to meet requests from protesters for a stronger law enforcement presence to help deter thefts and altercations often involving homeless people who had attached themselves to the encampment.

"We don't have the resources to go out and in effect babysit protesters 24-7 ... at the level that would have been necessary to address their concerns," Gibbons said during a press conference Friday.”

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/10/29/20111029nashville-  occupy-protests-curfew-arrests-ON.html


One doesn’t know where to begin . . .

Maybe the protesters have some M80s.
.
Bob K
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232 posted 10-30-2011 12:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     In this case, it appears that the police were under orders to exceed their actual authority.  I think that it is unfair to put police in a position like this.  The folks issuing the orders don't appear to be putting themselves into any danger; the police are, and the protestors, who are not apparently in violation on any law in that jurisdiction are being baited to see if they can be provoked into reacting badly to police intrusions on legal actions.

     It seems like a pretty cynical way of using working folks to me to undercut first amendment rights to protest.  Thank heavens there are Republicans in place to blame the people who are behaving legally.  I don't know what we'd do otherwise.
Balladeer
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233 posted 10-31-2011 11:39 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

"This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth. Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than its neighbors. ... Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil." --novelist and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)
Denise
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234 posted 10-31-2011 06:40 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Occupy Phoenix asks "When should you shoot a cop"?


Really? Really?
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/10/28/occupy_phoenix_asks_when_should_you_shoot_a_cop
Bob K
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235 posted 10-31-2011 07:34 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     I enjoy much of Ms. Rand's fiction.  Her history is faulty.  She scrambles it with her own personal mythology.  Many of us are guilty of that.  It is perhaps unfair to Ms. Rand to pick out a piece of her writing based on mythology as a basis for a philosophical position statement.  I know that she attempted to be more rigorous at times.  Many of the states were in fact land grants to people or corporations.  The boundaries were vaguely laid out.  Governorships were handed out frequently as rewards or as marks of royal favor, as they were in other lands run by the crown, including Ireland.  

     This was, at least in the beginning of the colonization, the era of the divine rights of Kings.  King James, who came to the throne directly after Elizabeth died, wrote one of the original books on the subject.  Charles the First, who tried governing without a Parlement, lost his head over the matter.  His colonial policy was devoted to handouts in return for cash, and that policy was pretty much the way things went, with an interlude for Cromwell.

     Mythology isn't history.  The governments in the Colonies here in the States was as corrupt as any in England.  The government repeatedly gave land away, frequently land that didn't belong to it.  Sorry.
Bob K
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236 posted 10-31-2011 09:11 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

Occupy Phoenix asks "When should you shoot a cop"?


Really? Really?



     I know that Katie Pavlitch makes that claim, Denise.  If you have other sources, I know nothing about them.  I have no other sources.
I know that Ms. Pavlitch is drawing inferences about Mr. Ayers.  Why Mr. Ayers would show up in an article about an unsourced letter in Phoenix tells me that  Ms. Pavlitch has to reach across 40 years and the distance from Phoenix to Chicago to make a connection; and only then does so by reaching to the President first.  The strands of her reasoning are pretty slack.

     Slackest of all is any sort of reasoning that connects the letter with anybody who does anything with any thinking or planning elements of OWS Phoenix.  If she wasn’t trying to do that, her attempted connection with the President and Mr. Ayers would be completely puzzling instead of merely tending toward being extraneous nonsense.  

     So, who wrote the letter, Denise?

     Near as I can tell, anybody can show up at these OWS gatherings as long as they’re reasonably polite.  They can be from any political point of view, they can say what they want, they can make whatever suggestions they want.  If they have something that catches folks interest, people will listen; if not, people will ignore them.  

     Could somebody have written and distributed the letter?  Well, yeah.  Since when is this an uncommon point of view in the United States, especially when you’re supporting a law that isn’t exactly popular.  Revenue agent anywhere, but especially in the southern hill country?  Border agent or customs agent along a stressed border crossing area?  ATF Agent investigating the legality of an arms cache which you hear is supposed to contain illegal automatic weapons?  Drug Agents almost anywhere?  

     I’d put money on there being a low popularity of anti-terrorism and FBI agents anyplace where people regard themselves as freedom fighters, or as people standing up for their God-given American rights to gather and to protest.  That, Denise, would be on any particular side of a political issue.  I’d mention the various Militia groups from the Right wing as well as anybody from the left as well.

     The left hasn’t been very big on this sort of thing for a long time in this country.  I don’t think it’s likely that they’re big on it now; but it could be possible.  If they do, it’s criminal activity, just like any other sort of criminal activity, and should be pursued that way, investigated that way, and, if necessary, punished that way.

     Ummm — but before any of that happens, shouldn’t we actually have facts and maybe a crime before we jump straight ahead to the punishment part of things?

     I'm personally against shooting anyone at all.   The last I heard, the only one who’d actually been  seriously hurt was one of the protesters, and that was from an over-reaction on the part of the police.  Whipping up police hysteria with articles like this seems pretty dodgy to me, and the outcome appears to be the likelihood of more casualties among the protesters.  That seems a pity, because the protesters and the police could actually cooperate in a lot of this if they can find a way of talking together and working toward common goals.  It really should be possible.
Denise
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237 posted 11-01-2011 09:03 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wouldn't think that a letter like that would be signed, Bob.

Bob K
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238 posted 11-01-2011 12:31 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Then why act as though it was?
Uncas
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239 posted 11-01-2011 03:14 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Larkin Rose wrote the words - not sure if he produced the flyer or not.

He's an odd bloke.
Denise
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240 posted 11-01-2011 04:07 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Here's all that needs to be said about the OWS movement:
http://biggovernment.com/publius/2011/10/31/the-99-the-official-list-of-occupywallstreets-supporters-sponsors-and-sympathizers/
Uncas
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241 posted 11-01-2011 06:15 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Here's all that needs to be said about the OWS movement:


If you mean that even people you don't like or generally agree with sometimes get things right - then I agree.

.
Balladeer
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242 posted 11-01-2011 06:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, I agree completely. That's a very telling, and unsurprising, list.
Balladeer
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243 posted 11-01-2011 07:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

After all - JUST WHO - are the WALL STREET BANKERS? The vast majority are JEWS - and the others are SPIRITUAL JEW materialists, who would sell their own mother's gold teeth for a PROFIT. And MORE and MORE people are AWARE of this truth, are not only NOT afraid to TALK ABOUT IT - they're shouting it on WALL STREET!

I urgently URGE all of you to TAKE PART and JOIN IN when these protests hit your neck of the woods. Produce some flyers EXPLAINING the "JEW BANKER" influence - DON'T wear anything marking you as an "evil racist" - and GET OUT THERE and SPREAD the WORD! Put as a "contact point" on your literature, our (url removed)  address - it won't immediately "scare off" some of these scaredy-cats for even looking at our FACTS - for FACTS they ARE!

If you are unable to produce your own leaflets - check out the "support" section of our website - there are a LOT of good flyers there to utilize.


American Nazi Party


Obviously it's not your average Tea Party.


Uncas
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244 posted 11-01-2011 07:37 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Obviously it's not your average Tea Party.


Probably not your average OWS protester either.

Uncas
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245 posted 11-01-2011 07:50 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


BTW Mike, the link in your post takes you to a site that is flagged by my Virus software as having pages that contain 'unsafe or malicious' content. You may want to remove it in case anyone clicks on it that doesn't have adequate or up to date Anti-Virus software.

.
Balladeer
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246 posted 11-01-2011 07:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Really? That list tells a different story.

I didn't see the Nazis, communists, marxists, hezbollah, north koreans supporting the tea party, nor were any calls for Jewish heads to roll. The protestors are pawns, little more, cheered on by every anti-democracy and anti-American group and country on the planet, it seems.
Balladeer
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247 posted 11-01-2011 07:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thanks, Uncas. I hadn't clicked on it and wasn't aware. I'll change it. What's this world coming to when you can't trust a Nazi??
Uncas
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248 posted 11-01-2011 08:02 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


The sad truth is that the site has probably been infected by a hacker to 'punish' anyone visiting the site.

.
Bob K
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249 posted 11-01-2011 11:15 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Did you check any of the supporters of the Arizona anti-immigrant law?

     They not only supported the law, but helped draft it, as I pointed out at the time.  The Southern Poverty Law Center had a fair amount to say about that.

     In this case, the implication is that if one supports the OWS in any way, then one is siding withese these groups.  If that is not the implication my right wing friends are offering, now would be the time to make that explicit.  If it is the implication they are offering, this would be the time to stop pussyfooting around and actually say so.

     The support that my right wing friends here offered the anti-immigrant law in Arizona did not make them nazis.  I disagreed with their support then and I continue to do so now.  I feel their support for the movement in Arizona puts them on the wrong side of several constitutional issues in my opinion.  

     My feelings about the OWS folks does not make me a communist or a nazi.  My own sympathies are more on the socialist side of the spectrum, but I'll settle for being a Democrat.  If anybody thinks I'm a nazi, I'd respectfully suggest that they're wrong.  If anybody suggests I'm a fundamentalist Muslim or Christian or Jew, I'd suggest you're wrong.  

     I would suggest that if you're trying to say that folks who support the OWS movement are likely to be any of these things, I'd probably have to say that you're wrong as well.  I would say that the folks who support the OWS movement are probably people who are upset at the role business has been taking in the government of the country, and at how the country as a whole is being used as a result of this.

     Respectfully I suggest that if you're looking for a sinister conspiracy, you're looking in the wrong places.  

     We've been trying to experiment with trickle down economics for thirty years now.  It's become increasingly clear that money floats up, like cream.  What trickles down is nowhere near as wholesome, and that people are not particularly interested in wallowing in it any more.  We want a middle class again.

     You don't need some whack-a-doodle conspiracy theory to explain that; it's really pretty straightforward.

    
 
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