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Statehood

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Uncas
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0 posted 09-17-2011 06:34 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas



The Palestinians, it seems, have finally realised that the only way to beat the system is to join it. They are formally going to request recognition as an independent state at the UN, applying for membership via the Security Council,   probably as early as Friday.

The move isn't likely to go down too well in certain circles, the US is even threatening to veto the request, but what do you think, should they be allowed to join the UN?

.
Bob K
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1 posted 09-17-2011 10:23 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Sure.  It would force debate on their boundaries, for one thing.  As long as Israel and the other local states are playing games with each other by refusing to set clear boundaries and refusing to grant clear title to specific lands, this monkey business can go on forever.  Once there are boundaries set of an actual nation State, violation of those boundaries by either other majority Muslim States or the majority Jewish State of Israel would constitute a clear act of war, which has clear and predictable international consequences.

     Such a move might push the Palestinians into recognition as a stable Nation/State and force it to establish a single foreign policy set by a single elected government.  It's easier to deal with a single entity than with a fragmented series of sub-groups, each in effect setting their own foreign policy, many of them at odds with each other.

     Then again, it would force the Israelis to start acting in a more reasonable way because their own situation might become more stable.  How much land are they willing to give and under what conditions will become the problem almost right away.  Will they return land that belongs to the Palestinians by negotiation and has been settled against the State of Israel's negotiated position or won't they?
Essorant
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2 posted 09-17-2011 12:39 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Absolutely.

Uncas
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3 posted 09-18-2011 06:46 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


It's going to be interesting to watch the outcome.

If the US can't persuade the Palestinians to back away from the request for membership and vetoes it at the security council stage the Palestinians will probably take it to a vote in the general assembly, where a two thirds majority is almost guaranteed. That will give the Palestinians 'Non-member state observer' status allowing the Palestinians access to the international criminal court to file charges against Israel.

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Huan Yi
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4 posted 09-18-2011 09:20 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Why would the US be opposed?


.
Uncas
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quote:
Why would the US be opposed?


The US claim that they're not opposed to Palestine becoming a state, they still say that they'll veto the move - their reasoning is that it would make a settlement of the issues with Israel harder to achieve.

It doesn't make any logical sense to me but that's the US stance and, so far, they're sticking to it.

.
Huan Yi
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6 posted 09-18-2011 11:29 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“In his Times op-ed, Abbas also wrote, “Minutes after the State of Israel was established on May 14, 1948, the United States granted it recognition. Our Palestinian state, however, remains a promise unfulfilled.” Abbas didn’t explain how any country could have recognized a United Nations–designated Palestinian state that the Palestinians and the Arab states themselves rejected. The Arab Higher Committee (AHC) was the recognized representative of the Palestinian people at the time of the U.N. partition vote. The Zionists accepted the partition plan. The AHC and the Arab states rejected any proposal to share the land and vowed to drown the fledgling Jewish state in “rivers of blood.”

Following instructions from the AHC, Palestinian militias and volunteers from neighboring Arab countries began attacking Jewish settlements after the U.N. partition plan was announced in November 1947. The irregular Arab units were ordered to take strategic strongholds and hold on until the expected invasion of Israel by regular Arab armies after the British withdrawal on May 14, 1948. What happened in Safed was typical of the bloody inter-communal warfare that soon convulsed the country. Elements of the Arab Liberation Army — the main Palestinian armed force — plus Jordanian irregular units, entered Safed’s Arab neighborhoods and began sporadic attacks on the Jewish quarter. Facing a full-scale invasion of Galilee by the Syrian and Jordanian regular armies, Jewish military commanders couldn’t afford to have armed Palestinian units behind their lines. On the night of May 8, reinforcements from the Palmach, the elite Jewish strike force, counterattacked and took the key Arab strongholds in the city. Almost immediately, Safed’s Arabs began streaming out toward the Syrian border. There were no expulsions of Arab civilians by Israeli forces.

In his Times op-ed, Abbas even contradicted previous accounts he had offered in which he conceded that his family left Safed voluntarily — in part because of fear that the Jews would seek revenge for a murderous rampage by local Arabs against the Jewish community in 1929. In an interview on Palestinian radio, Abbas said, “We left [Safed] on foot at night to the Jordan River. . . . Eventually, we settled in Damascus. My father had money, and he spent his money methodically. After a year, when the money ran out, we began to work.” There was no mention by Abbas in that earlier interview of living in a canvas tent.

President Abbas’s historical distortions (clearly not fact-checked by the Times) are at the very heart of the Palestinian nakba myth (nakba is the Arabic word for “catastrophe”) and emblematic of the Palestinian leadership’s century-long refusal to accept a Jewish state in any part of the Arab Middle East. That obstinate rejection, not the Israeli government’s positions about borders or West Bank settlements, remains the No. 1 obstacle to peace in the Holy Land.

Last week, as he prepared for his statehood initiative at the U.N., the Palestinian president reaffirmed that the issue for the Palestinians is not the occupation of the West Bank, but the very creation of Israel. In a New York Times report from the Palestinian capital of Ramallah, Abbas was quoted: “Some Israelis complain that this is a unilateral move, but when you address 193 countries, that is not unilateral. We are going to complain that as Palestinians we have been under occupation for 63 years.” The Times reporter didn’t bother commenting that the 63 years of “occupation” Abbas was complaining about goes back to 1948 and the original sin, for the Palestinians, of the creation of the modern state of Israel.

Resolving the Israel–Palestine conflict is tough enough; it becomes almost impossible when one side insists on lying about the conflict’s origins.


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/277253/palestinian-big-lie-sol-stern


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Essorant
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7 posted 09-20-2011 07:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
"...Palestinian nakba myth..."


In which way is the Nakba a "myth"?
 
"The ruthless offensive of 1948 included dozens of massacres and rapes, the destruction of more than 400 villages, including communities that had signed non-aggression pacts with their Jewish neighbours, and the purging of the Palestinian inhabitants of a dozen ethnically mixed cities.  This outcome is celebrated by Israelis as their War of Independence, but mourned by Palestinians as the Nakba (Catastrophe).  As the historian Walid Khalidi observes, Israel's rapid and comprehensive dispossession of the Palestinian people in 1948 was "one of the most remarkable colonizing ventures of all time".  Strikingly, Palestine was colonized "in the wake of the (at least verbal) espousal by Western democracies of the principle of national self-determination" and "in the modern age of communication." ( Disappearing Palestine: Israel's Experiments in Human Despair" by Jonathan Cook)

  
Balladeer
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Last week the PA announced it will ask the UN Security Council to pass an anti- Semitic resolution defining Jewish building in Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem as illegal. This move dovetails nicely with Abbas's statement over the weekend that "Palestine" will be Jew-free. As he put it, "If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won't agree to the presence of one Israeli in it. When a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence."

To date neither of these racist bids to deny Jews basic rights to their homes and land just because they are Jews has been opposed by any government or human rights group. And if the Obama administration allows the PA's anti-Semitic resolution to go forward in the Security Council, the move would be a massive victory for the political war against Israel.

-----

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton signaled this month that the Obama administration is wholly on board Fatah's political warfare bandwagon. In her speech at the Brookings Institute on December 10, she said the Obama administration supports Fatah's plan to build facts on the ground that will make it more difficult for Israel to maintain its control over Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem.

After calling Jewish presence in the areas "illegitimate," Clinton pledged the US "will deepen our support of the Palestinians' state-building efforts."
http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18605&posts=1

**************************************************************************************
Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas​ has reiterated his determination to go ahead with his attempt to get the United Nations to recognize an independent Palestinian state without asking it to make peace with Israel. But, as the Jerusalem Post reports, he is not averse to being bribed to back away from an effort he knows is doomed to failure with more Israeli concessions. Abbas said yesterday he would give up on the UN effort in exchange for Israel halting all settlement building and agreeing on the 1967 lines as the basis for future negotiations. But he also added he would never agree to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

What exactly Israel would then negotiate is unclear, because it would have effectively given up all its cards prior to the talks. Nor is there any reason for Israel to make unilateral concessions if in the end the Palestinians are still unwilling to end the conflict, as would be the case if they recognized the legitimacy of a Jewish state. But, as has been apparent since 2008, Abbas’ goal is not negotiations but the avoidance of them.
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/08/28/abbas-un-borders-settlements/


Essorant
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9 posted 09-21-2011 07:40 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Independent Palestine: Interview with Hanan Ashrawi - September 19, 2011

Bob K
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10 posted 09-23-2011 03:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     A large number of Israelis are Palestinians of Muslim or Christian background.  There are also a large number of Israelis who are Jewish and of arab descent, from arab countries.  Israel is a highly stratified country with a large number of caste and class divisions based on ethnicity — ashkanazi versus sephardic; white versus black and so on.

     If there are descriptions of wretched things being done by the Jews against the Muslim Palestinians, there is probably substantial truth to these descriptions.  Calling them lies is not sufficient explanation.  If there are descriptions of wretched things done by Muslims against Jews of whatever description, these too are probably true.

     At what point have all your allies become saints and all those who oppose you become demons?  I have my share of racist fools related to me, and I know a fair number of compassionate folk who disagree with me.  It may be that I am the only one in this discussion who is in this situation, but I would be surprised if that were the case.  And yet here we are splitting into the same familiar camps saying the same familiar things as though the world is a black and white place and we may be certain that all of us are on the side of the light.

     Except that many of "us" are in disagreement about the facts.

     As I understand the peace accords that were signed under Carter, there were supposed to be no new settlements built on the west bank.  The Israeli right wing has been ignoring that for more than twenty years now and has been building israeli settlements there against the negotiated solution at that time.

     Yes, everybody's been acting badly since that time, but the new settlements have been an issue the whole time, and have been a major provocation the whole time.  They shouldn't be there now, they should be dismantled.

     Israel should be acknowledged as a Jewish state with non-Jews living there.  Palestine should be given a contiguous parcel of land with access to the sea and shipping lanes, and there should be a peace treaty signed.
Some of the territory that makes up Palestine should come from The West Bank, which should be Palestinian, some should come from Jordan and some from other contiguous arab countries.  Everybody should help with foreign aid to get Palestine started.

     You want an opinion, that's my opinion.

     You want to blame somebody, don't.  It will only help delay a solution that much longer, which may be why some of the folks are fighting anyway.  They wouldn't know how to live in a peaceful world if they tried; they'd simply self destruct.
Uncas
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11 posted 09-24-2011 05:58 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

Bob,

Why do you think Israel and the views of Israel are being inserted into, what is basically, a very simple and unrelated question - should the UN recognise Palestine as a state?

.
Bob K
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12 posted 09-24-2011 07:51 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Because to my mind, the question is neither very simple, nor are the two issues unrelated...

     I am in favor of Palestinian Statehood.  The question is and always has been, A state with which boundaries?

     If the question were simple, they would have had it a long time ago.  The question, or one of them, that makes it complex, is, Exactly where?  Please, tell me the extremely simple answer to that question.  I personally don't believe that there is one at this point.

     I'm trying to give you the best answer I have to offer here, Uncas.

     I think Israel needs to withdraw from the west bank and that the west bank should be Palestinian territory.  I also think that some territory should come from the arab neighbors as well.

     What do you think?
Huan Yi
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13 posted 09-24-2011 08:20 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Mahmoud Abbas,… has provoked the latest turmoil
in Middle Eastern diplomacy by suggesting  that the U.N
should recognize Palestine as a state, even though it is clear
that no such nation can be self-sustaining without a negotiated
peace with Israel. . .

The most oft-cited-cited authority, the 1933 Montevideo
Convention  on the Rights and Duties of States requires . . .
“capacity to enter into relations with other states.” . . .
..the unresolved divide between Hamas, which rules Gaza
and seeks Israel’s  overthrow , and the Palestinian Authority
which holds the West Bank and accepts Israel in principle,
casts doubt on a combined Palestine’s ability to act coherently.”

Steve Coll
The New Yorker
Sept 26, 2011


.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (09-24-2011 09:48 PM).]

Local Rebel
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14 posted 09-24-2011 08:44 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I think we're approaching the time when statehood can cease to be defined by borders.  We're closer to virtual statehood.
Uncas
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15 posted 09-24-2011 09:27 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
We're closer to virtual statehood.


BINGO!

It doesn't matter where the borders are - that's a technical point they can sort out later. Trust me, borders aren't the major issue for Israel, if Palestine never becomes a state then where the red demarcation line gets painted is an irrelevant question.

All this talk of borders and who did what to who and who is right and who is wrong is just a smokescreen which hides the irony that if Palestine is recognised by the UN all that other stuff is actually easier to resolve. Look, Israel maintains that they've done absolutely nothing wrong, that they're the victims in all this, maybe they're right but there's a really easy way to answer all those questions. Once Palestine is given statehood the questions regarding borders and who did what will be admissible in the UN and international court. Surely if Israel are so adamant that they've done nothing wrong and are simply an innocent party they've got nothing to fear, the UN and international court will obviously support their claims - if they prove to be valid.

Of course if they're worried that their claims won't stand up to scrutiny by the international community Israel needs to do everything it can to stop Palestine being recognised by the UN.

.
Huan Yi
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16 posted 09-24-2011 09:44 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Surely if Israel are so adamant that they've done nothing wrong and are simply an innocent party they've got nothing to fear, the UN and international court will obviously support their claims - if they prove to be valid"


The UN?
Please . . .


.
Balladeer
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There is, and has only been, one goal...the destruction of Israel and elimination of Jews. Anyone who doesn't believe that is turning blind eyes to history and even the world today.

I agree with the quote that says, "If the Arabs lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If t he Israelites lay down their weapons, there will be no Israel."
Uncas
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18 posted 09-24-2011 10:45 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
The UN?
Please . . .


It's not perfect but then again the US hasn't managed to resolve the problem and they've, allegedly, been trying, for decades and failed miserably - the UN can't do much worse.

quote:
There is, and has only been, one goal...the destruction of Israel and elimination of Jews.


How exactly would Palestine being recognised as a state lend itself to that supposed goal Mike?

.
Balladeer
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19 posted 09-24-2011 10:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

A state refusing to sign a peace treaty with Israel?
Uncas
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20 posted 09-24-2011 11:06 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
A state refusing to sign a peace treaty with Israel?


Presumably Mike you weren't in favour of Israel being recognised as a state by the UN while they were refusing to sign a peace treaty with Palestine.

.
Huan Yi
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21 posted 09-24-2011 11:17 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"the UN can't do much worse"


Again, Please . . .


“The following is a list of United Nations resolutions that concern Israel and bordering states such as Lebanon. The Human Rights Council has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

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Balladeer
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22 posted 09-24-2011 11:23 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If Israel had made a public statement that their purpose was to kill Arabs, then, no, I wouldn't have been in favor.

I can give you three wars delcared on Israel since it's inception. How many can you give me where Israel declared war on others without being attacked first?
Balladeer
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23 posted 09-24-2011 11:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Palestinian Authority will not be recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Saturday, adopting a belligerent tone ahead of his planned statehood bid in September. The Palestinian leader also criticized demands made by the International Quartet of his Authority, urging the international community to back off. "Don't order us to recognize a Jewish state," Abbas said. "We won't accept it."

The Palestinians will continue to demand the right of return fo r millions of refugees to their original homes inside Israel even after the UN recognizes a Palestinian state along the June 4, 1967, lines, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said on Sunday.
  Acknowledging that the situation on the ground would not change for the Palestinians when and if a Palestinian state is declared, the PA president explained: "First, there will be a state under occupation. The Israelis these days deal with us on the basis that we are not a state and that the Palestinian lands are disputed territories. But when the recognition of our state on the 1967 borders happens, we will become a state under occupation, and then we would be able to go to the UN [with demands]. We will remain under occupation, but our legal status will change."

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/08/abbas-we-wont-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state.html

Abbas Quotes Koran in Call to Kill Jews
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/01/abbas_quotes_ko.html
Uncas
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24 posted 09-24-2011 11:27 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
"the UN can't do much worse"


Again, Please . . .


The US has completely and utterly failed to broker a peace treaty and resolve the Arab/Israeli issue - the UN can't possibly do any worse.

.
 
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