How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Statehood   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Statehood

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


100 posted 10-01-2011 02:16 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Can a Moslem in today’s Iran be condemned to death by law
for converting to Christianity?  Are there any other countries
where that is true?   Is there a country today where a Christian
by law can be condemned to death for converting to Islam?


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


101 posted 10-01-2011 09:51 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ok Mike, we're making progress here.  Understand, I'm not trying to suggest you should abandon your admiration and support for what's good about Israel, any more than I would want you to stop being patriotic about the US.  The thing is, being patriotic to me means not turning a blind eye:

quote:


The United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict reported on rioting and violence in the West Bank in the period preceding the Israeli military operations in Gaza. The report said "Little if any action is taken by the Israeli authorities to investigate, prosecute and punish violence against Palestinians, including killings, by settlers and members of the security forces, resulting in a situation of impunity. The Mission concludes that Israel has failed to fulfil its obligations to protect the Palestinians from violence by private individuals under both international human rights law and international humanitarian law.[23] The report also stated that the International Court of Justice advisory opinion and “a number of United Nations resolutions have all affirmed that Israel’s practice of constructing settlements – in effect, the transfer by an occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies – constitutes a breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention”.[24]
Yesh Din has produced a report, "A Semblance of Law", which found problems with law enforcement actions against Israelis in the West Bank. According to Yesh Din's study, which was conducted in 2005, more than 90% of complaints against Israelis were closed without indictments, 96% of trespassing cases (including sabotage of trees) against Israelis led to no indictment, 100% of property offenses against Israelis led to no indictment and 5% of complaints against Israelis were lost and never investigated.[25]
As well as collecting statistics, Yesh Din examined 42 closed investigation files and found a number of shortcomings, including the use of Hebrew rather than Arabic, a lack of investigating alibis, police rarely went to the scene of the crime. Many closed files had insufficient investigation and in several cases closed files appeared to have sufficient evidence for indictment,[25]
8% of complaints resulted in indictments. The Israeli Justice Ministry responded by stating that legal authorities were closely following specific cases, but said that it was not in its authority to deal with every case.[26]
Israeli security sources have said that it has become customary for some settlers to take the law into their own hands in the wake of terror attacks in the West Bank.[27]
In the years 2008-2009, the defense establishment began taking a harder line against unruly settlers.[1]
[edit]Settler riots

Israeli withdrawals from Gaza (in 2005) and an eviction in Hebron (in 2008) triggered settler rioting in protest. There is also continual conflict between settlers and Palestinians over land, resources and perceived grievances. In August 2007, soldiers clashed with settlers during a raid in Hebron. Paint and eggs were thrown at the soldiers.[28]
A violent settler protest at the Palestinian village of Funduk occurred in November 2007, in which hundreds of extremist settlers converged at the entrance of the village and rampaged. The protest occurred five days after a settler was killed by Palestinians. The settlers smashed the windows of houses and cars. According to Funduk villagers, Israeli soldiers and police accompanied the protesters but mostly stood aside while the settlers rampaged.[29]
In December 2008 Hebron settlers angry at the eviction of settlers from a disputed house rioted, shooting three Palestinians and burning Palestinian homes and olive groves. Video footage of the attacks were recorded, leading to widespread condemnation in Israel. The attacks were characterized as "a pogrom" by then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert who said he was ashamed "as a Jew".[30][31]
Local Palestinians claimed that once the disputed house was evicted, the IDF and the police were "indifferent" to the violence against the Palestinians, and have made no real attempt to stop the settlers from rioting.[32]
Some settlers have publicly adopted what they refer to as a "price tag" policy whereby settlers attack Palestinian villages in retaliation after settler outposts are removed by the Israeli government.[33]
In April 2009, dozens of settlers from Bat Ayin rampaged through the West Bank village of Safa, smashing car windows, damaging homes and wounding 12 Palestinians.[34]
The United Nations has warned that up to 250,000 Palestinians in 83 villages are "highly or moderately" vulnerable to settler retaliation if the unauthorized outposts in the West Bank are removed by the Israeli government. 75,900 Palestinians in 22 villages are "highly vulnerable". The report also warns that a number of roads around Palestinian villages may become dangerous for the Palestinians to travel on. The settlements Havat Gilad, Kedumim, Itamar, Yitzhar, Ma'aleh Levona, Shilo, Adei Ad, Nokdim, Bat Ayin, Neguhot, Kiryat Arba, Beit Haggai, Carmel and Susya are considered as possible threats to nearby Palestinians. The report criticizes "the inadequate level of law enforcement by the Israeli authorities" and "the ambiguous message delivered by the Government of Israel and the IDF top officials to the security forces in the field regarding their authority and responsibility to enforce the law on Israeli settlers".[35]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence



Sorry dont have much time right now and working on this Ipad is a little tedious for doing this kind of stuff, so I'll try to get back into this tomorrow.

I'm not pessimistic though.


Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


102 posted 10-02-2011 01:42 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
muslims and jews have been fighting for over 2000 years....



How could that be, when Islam hasn't even been around for 2000 years?

Can you name any serious on-going conflicts that took place between Muslims and Jews before the events of Zionism in Palestine?
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


103 posted 10-02-2011 01:48 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Photos of Ottoman Palestine in 1898-1917
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=742vHMw3Ixc
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


104 posted 10-02-2011 01:48 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Jews have been enemies of the Book
since the 7th Century.  Anyone can read
that for themselves in the Quran which
is considered the literal word of God.


PS:


"There is a popular saying today in the Palestinian areas: “First comes Saturday, then comes Sunday.” This is code for, “After we finish off the Jews, we will take care of the Christians.”


http://c4rpme.org/bin/articles.cgi?Cat=christians&Subcat=cmr&ID=69

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


105 posted 10-02-2011 09:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Palestinian TV, radio, newspapers and textbooks -- in teaching the Islamic attitude toward Jews -- have fueled an intense hatred for Israel and promoted violent jihad.

PALESTINE AUTHORITY PRINCIPLES

Regarding the Jews:

    Jews are the enemy of Allah.

    Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.

    The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.

    Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war.

Regarding Israel:

- All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (which includes all of Israel) is a religious Waqf -- an Islamic religious trust. Any Moslem who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.

- All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature, and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.

- Allah will replace Moslems who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.

- The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.

The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months, Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Moslems kill Jews. According to Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, quoted in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (May 18, 2001), and Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, delivering the main Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (April 13, 2001), the Hadith itself states:

    "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"

On Palestinian TV (March 30, 2001) the preacher Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi attacked Arab-Moslem world leaders because they are avoiding attacking Israel with missiles and tanks, and threatened them that Allah is liable to "replace them with other men... that fight for Allah... to liberate the lands from the defilement of the Jews."

"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Mohammed said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them...' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..." (Palestinian TV, July 28, 2000)

"Blessed is he who fights jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: ‘Allahu Akbar, blessed be Allah.' Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." (Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001)

"The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Moslem victory is coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith. And the day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers [the Moslems] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the Jews] and with their annihilation." (official P.A. newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May 18, 2001)

    Quotes from the Palestinian Authority

Palestinian TV, radio, newspapers and textbooks -- in teaching the Islamic attitude toward Jews -- have fueled an intense hatred for Israel and promoted violent jihad.
by Itamar Marcus

Throughout history, religious wars have been fought in the name of different gods. The premise of the Oslo Accords was that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not an irreconcilable religious war, but one over borders. However, the Palestinian religious leaders, all appointees of the PA political leadership, are publicly preaching that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's eternal religious war against the Jews. Jews are portrayed as the eternal enemies of Allah, and the killing of Jews as Allah's will. On the national level, Allah prohibits acceptance of Israel's existence and will destroy it.

This ideology is preached in sermons and religious lessons that are broadcast every Friday on official Palestinian TV and radio, and from the religious lessons appearing in PA newspapers and children's textbooks.

The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war in which compromise is heretical. The implications for future peace are ominous.

This report is not brought as a critique of Islam's religious traditions, nor does it claim to represent authentic Islam. Rather it demonstrates the way Palestinian Authority religious leaders are selecting, interpreting and teaching Islam. Although Islam has positive references and traditions regarding Jews, the PA religious leaders have chosen to cite only negative references in their religious teaching, using the traditional sources to justify and even to demand uncompromising hatred of Jews and Israel.

The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders can be summarized by eight essential principles:

Regarding the Jews:

    Jews are the enemy of Allah.

    Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.

    The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.

    Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war.

Regarding Israel:

- All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (which includes all of Israel) is a religious Waqf -- an Islamic religious trust. Any Moslem who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.

- All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature, and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.

- Allah will replace Moslems who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.

- The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.

The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months, Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Moslems kill Jews. According to Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, quoted in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (May 18, 2001), and Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, delivering the main Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (April 13, 2001), the Hadith itself states:

    "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"

On Palestinian TV (March 30, 2001) the preacher Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi attacked Arab-Moslem world leaders because they are avoiding attacking Israel with missiles and tanks, and threatened them that Allah is liable to "replace them with other men... that fight for Allah... to liberate the lands from the defilement of the Jews."

These broadcasts by officially appointed religious leaders, presenting the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as an eternal religious conflict, have been preached long before the current violence began. This preaching it is not a reaction to the present violence, and possibly the opposite is true. The PA's religious worldview, that sees agreements with Israel as inherently temporary and war against the Jews as an expression of Allah's will, has in all likelihood fueled the hatred that has lead to Palestinian terror and violence.

This report presents representative selections from sermons broadcast during recent years:

* * *

Eternal Islamic War against the Jews is led by Palestinians; the Jews are enemies of Allah.

"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Mohammed said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them...' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..." (Palestinian TV, July 28, 2000)

"Blessed is he who fights jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: ‘Allahu Akbar, blessed be Allah.' Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews." (Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001)

"The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Moslem victory is coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith. And the day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers [the Moslems] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the Jews] and with their annihilation." (official P.A. newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, May 18, 2001)

"The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace. They are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that slaughtered our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them -- kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them... Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere..." (Palestinian TV, October 13, 2000)

"My dear brothers, so continues the struggle between the Moslems and the Jews from the past, both near and far, in the present and in the future. And in this matter the word of Allah will be fulfilled: 'There will not be found [anyone] more hostile to the believers than the Jews and the idolaters." (Palestinian TV, April 13, 2001, quoting the Koran - Sura 5,84)

A repeated goal of PA religious teaching is to defame Jews and Jewish tradition:

"...The Jews are used to deceit... They fake the facts and changed the laws of Allah... The Torah was brought down with contained guidance toward the path of righteousness and light, just as every book which Allah brought down... [The Jews] switched the law of Allah and by this rebelled on His ruling and religion and way, and therefore they merit to be heretics and to be banished from the Allah's mercy... They faked the words of Allah and changed their religion and laws and they are the wicked. And whomever does not rule according to what Allah brought down, whomever rebelled against this... is in a rebellion against Allah, and is a descendant of Abelis [ghost], the descendant of the Satans, and worthy of receiving the punishment of the sinners..." (Palestinian TV, February 16, 1999)

"...Their Bible [of the Jews] today has no light and no teachings. Their Bible today is just a bunch of notes that were written down by people who lie about God, his prophets and his Bible... Those who do these kinds of things are the descendants of Abelis, meaning the descendants of the satans... They fabricated a Jewish history book full of promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that He will give them the land of Palestine..." (Palestinian TV, November 3, 1998)

* * *

All of the land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea is Holy Islamic Wakf (Moslem religious trust).

Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, official preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, referred to the Israeli cities of Haifa, Lod, Jerusalem, and Nazareth, on Palestinian Radio (April 30, 1999):

"The Islamic Land of Palestine is one and cannot be divided. There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between Jerusalem and Nazareth. Dividing Palestine into cantons and giving recognition to the occupation is prohibited by Sharia (Islamic religious law), since Palestinian is Wakf (Islamic Trust) for all Moslems in the East and in the West. No one has the right to give it up or to forsake it. The liberation of Palestine is a mandatory obligation for all Moslems and not only for our Palestinian nation."

"It is forbidden for anyone, Arab, Palestinian or Moslem to forgo one grain of soil of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem and Al Aksa... Whoever forgoes even one grain of soil his sin is upon him, and all the sins of the Palestinians, the Arabs and the Moslems, forever and ever..." (Palestinian TV, September 8, 2000)

And as proclaimed by Dr. Mohammed Ibrahim Maadi, in the Friday sermon on Palestinian TV, (June 8, 2001):

"Who is responsible for the loss of Palestine... and [for] deceitfully labeling it Israel?... The Prophet [Mohammed] soothes us with many Hadiths that Palestine shall return to its former days... We must prepare a foothold, for the coming army of Allah, by divine predetermination. May it be Allah's will [that] this oppressing state shall pass, Israel shall pass. This oppressing state, America, shall pass. The oppressing state Britain, shall pass, [those] that brought this catastrophe [nakba] of this nation..."

And then in the Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (May 4, 2001):

“...In our holy books [it is written] that when a state for the Jews is established in Palestine, it will not last more than 67 years. In other words -- the year 2022. And I beg Allah to bring an end to the country of the oppressor in America, and the country of the oppressor Israel in Palestine, by that date... Therefore, it is our hope that this oppressive country [Israel] will be terminated, as in the words of Allah..."
http://www.aish.com/jw/me/48883732.html


There are many more such comments. Now, do you really believe that anyone like the PA and it's religious leaders who preach this will settle for anything less than the complete destruction of Israel, regardless???

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


106 posted 10-02-2011 11:04 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Important information about the right- wing in Israel:

quote:


The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister and defense minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of Israeli right-wing dissent over the Oslo Peace Process. Rabin, despite his extensive service in the Israeli military, was disparaged personally by right-wing conservatives and Likud leaders who perceived the Oslo peace process as an attempt to forfeit the occupied territories. Contrary to Likud’s accusations, Rabin was focused on the consolidation of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories. He planned to give the Palestinian Liberation Organization control of 90% of the West Bank’s Arab population, while retaining 70% of the land in the occupied territories. In a speech to the Knesset, Rabin promised that Israel would continue to have “total freedom of action in order to fulfill the security aims that touch upon the permanent solution.”
Nonetheless, hostility continued to mount against Rabin. Ultra-orthodox conservatives and Likud party leaders believed that withdrawing from any Jewish land was heresy. Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. Likud Leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin’s government of being “removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values.” Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target by in the cross-hairs of a sniper.[1] Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin



So, Mike, when your source article bigins:

quote:

Throughout history, religious wars have been fought in the name of different gods. The premise of the Oslo Accords was that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not an irreconcilable religious war, but one over borders. However, the Palestinian religious leaders, all appointees of the PA political leadership, are publicly preaching that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's eternal religious war against the Jews. Jews are portrayed as the eternal enemies of Allah, and the killing of Jews as Allah's will. On the national level, Allah prohibits acceptance of Israel's existence and will destroy it.
This ideology is preached in sermons and religious lessons that are broadcast every Friday on official Palestinian TV and radio, and from the religious lessons appearing in PA newspapers and children's textbooks.
The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war in which compromise is heretical. The implications for future peace are ominous.



I'm quite naturally going to understand that I'm not only reading propaganda, but propganda promulgated by murderous scum who are completely disinterested in peace.

But, like all murderous scum, they too can be brought to the table.

If you're trying to convince me there are Muslim radicals in the world - let me save you the sale, I already bought that long before 9/11

Every war is fought by criminals and murderous rapers, up until the armistices are signed, and then, people start to get along.

From your quoted wiki-page on Dhimmi--and what you're missing:

quote:



The phrase "…there is no compulsion in religion…", from [Quran 2:256], has usually been interpreted in the Islamic legal and theological traditions to mean followers of other religions should not be forced to adopt Islam.[75]
The phrase "…To you your religion, to me my religion…", from [Quran 109:6], has been used as a "proof-text for pluralism and coexistence".[75]
Verse [Quran 2:62] has served to justify the tolerated position accorded to the followers of Christianity, Judaism, and Sabianism under Muslim rule.[75]
Allameh Tabatabaei, a prominent 20th century Shia scholar, commenting on a hadith that claims that the verse 9:29 has "abrogated" other verses asking for good behaviour toward dhimmis, states that "abrogation" could be understood either in its terminological sense or its literal sense. If "abrogation" is understood in its terminological sense, Muslims should deal with dhimmis strictly in a good and decent manner.[40]


Javed Ahmed Ghamidi writes in Mizan that certain directives of the Qur’an were specific only to the Prophet Muhammad against peoples of his times, besides other directives, the campaign involved asking the polytheists of Arabia for submission to Islam as a condition for exoneration and the others for jizya and submission to the political authority of the Muslims for exemption from death punishment and for military protection as the dhimmis of the Muslims. Therefore, after the Prophet and his companions, there is no concept in Islam obliging Muslims to wage war for propagation or implementation of Islam.[41][42]



But I understand that the Islamophobia industry is big  http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/08/islamophobia.html
Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


107 posted 10-02-2011 02:04 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


quote:
While attention is focused on the Palestinian Authority’s UN recognition initiative, Israel is quietly taking hugely significant steps to transfer 30,000 Palestinian Bedouin in the Naqab (Negev) desert from their ancestral lands.

Recently, Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, approved plans for another large-scale cleansing of the Bedouin community in the Naqab. The plan would “relocate” 30,000 of those who managed to remain on their land after more than two thirds of all Bedouin were uprooted during the establishment of Israel.

The Bedouin once were a flourishing community of some 90,000 persons who lived around the city of Bir al-Saba (Beersheva). Yet the expulsions that took place in 1948 were the prelude to their ongoing expulsion since then.

After the establishment of Israel, military rule was imposed on the Beersheva Bedouin for more than 18 years. Despite the end of the military rule in 1967, the Bedouin story of dispossession continues until today. Almost all their land was seized by the state using a set of legal maneuvers such as the absentee property law and the land acquisition laws of 1953.

Despite the expulsions that took place during the establishment of the State of Israel on their land, today the Arab Bedouin population is estimated to number more than 200,000 persons and constitutes one-third of the Naqab’s population. Today, half of Bedouin citizens of Israel live in 46 “unrecognized” villages. These are Bedouin villages in the Naqab which Israel does not recognize as legal; the villages are deprived of basic services like housing, water, electricity, education and health care. The rest live in townships that the state established for them in the 1970s in an aggressive policy of forced sedentarization.

Israel refuses to respect the rights of its own citizens; in this case 100,000 persons (the population of the 46 unrecognized villages) who are part of the 1.5 million Palestinian national minority treated as second-class citizens in Israel. Despite continuous policies since 1948 to Judaize the Naqab, Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, is currently considering the possibility of a final push to modify the demography of the region once and for all and hence tighten Israel’s control over it. The recent Goldberg and Prawer Commission recommendations of “relocating” 30,000 Bedouin from their native land was approved in September by the Israeli government (Eliezer Goldberg is a former Israeli high court judge; Ehud Prawer a senior Israeli civil servant; both men have headed panels set up to study the status of Bedouins in the Naqab).

Since 1948, successive Israeli governments have not dealt seriously with the Bedouin land ownership question, or “problem” in the Israeli state’s lexicon, in the Naqab. Successive new governments formulated new plans for dealing with the unrecognized villages and land claims. To this day, no government has applied universal principles of human rights to resolve the dispute between the Bedouin community and the state over land ownership.

It appears that Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, is in the process of adopting extreme measures toward this segment of the Arab minority in Israel that remained within its historical homeland to achieve a final solution to this “problem.” The plan approved by the Israeli cabinet involves the expulsion and “relocation” of 30,000 Bedouins from their land out of a total of 100,000 residents of the unrecognized villages. It is no coincidence that such drastic measures are close to implementation.

With the regional shift in politics amid the Arab uprisings and the move towards recognition of a Palestinian state, Netanyahu’s coalition feels an urgent need to take the strategic decision of protecting space for Jewish settlers in the Naqab by dispossessing more indigenous Bedouin from their own historical land.


...


"Shmulik Rifman, head of Ramat Negev Council, stated that Netanyahu’s government was taking a major risk, explaining that if “they don’t finalize the Bedouin settlement it will be very hard to enhance Jewish settlement in the Negev. This must be addressed if one wants 700,000 Jews in the Negev.”
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-parliament-approves-plans-transfer-30000-palestinian-bedouin/10444



quote:
As of 1951, the United Nations reported the expulsion of about 7,000 Negev Bedouin into neighbouring Jordan, the Gaza Strip and the Sinai. But, many returned undetected.[21] The new government failed to issue the Bedouin identity cards until 1952 and continuously expelled thousands of Bedouin who remained within the new borders.[22] Expulsions continued into the late 1950s, as reported by Haaretz in 1959: "The army's desert patrols would turn up in the midst of a Bedouin encampment day after day, dispersing it with a sudden burst of machine-gun fire until the sons of the desert were broken and, gathering what little was left of their belongings, led their camels in long silent strings into the heart of the Sinai desert."[23] In 1950 Israel decided to stop using the Arabic place names on its official maps, and adopt Hebrew names instead.[24]. For 120 locations in the Negev the Hebrew traditional name was adopted instead of the Arabic one (e.g. Etzion Gaver). 175 Arab names were translated literally into Hebrew (e.g. A-Soweida >> Shḥoret), and 150 Arabic names were phonetically altered to sound more like Hebrew names (e.g. Jarf >> Garof, or Al-Koreim >> Karmah). 50 names were borrowed from the Hebrew Bible without having historical connection to the specific location in question. 30 names were invented from scratch, and 8 names remained in their Arabic form[25]. Explaining this policy in 1949 to the committee he had appointed to devise Hebrew place names for the Negev region, Israeli prime minister David Ben-Gurion wrote, "We are obliged to remove the Arabic names for reasons of state. Just as we do not recognize the Arabs' political proprietorship of the land, so also we do not recognize their spiritual proprietorship and their names. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Bedouin

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


108 posted 10-02-2011 07:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Every war is fought by criminals and murderous rapers, up until the armistices are signed, and then, people start to get along.

Yes, when armistices are signed as a result on one side being conquered by the other.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


109 posted 10-02-2011 07:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Last July, former Speaker of the House of Representatives Newt Gingrich warned a conservative audience at the American Enterprise Institute that the Islamic practice of Sharia was “a mortal threat to the survival of freedom in the United States and in the world as we know it.” Gingrich went on to claim that “Sharia in its natural form has principles and punishments totally abhorrent to the Western world.”

Sharia, or Muslim religious code, includes practices such as charitable giving, prayer, and honoring one’s parents—precepts virtually identical to those of Christianity and Judaism.


...and that means what? Perhaps nazis treated their pets right, never forgot their mothers' birthday, and helped little old ladies across the street. So........? Would you want Sharia law in the United States. Shall we stone women to death or cut the hands of theives and administer their other forms punishment? Those preactices are being conducted under Sharia law right now .
President George W. Bush reflected the general opinion of the American public at the time when he went to great lengths to make clear that Islam and Muslims are not the enemy. Speaking to a roundtable of Arab and Muslim American leaders at the Afghanistan embassy in 2002, for example, President Bush said, “All Americans must recognize that the face of terror is not the true faith—face of Islam. Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It’s a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It’s a faith based upon love, not hate.”

Careful there, LR. You are dangerously close to saying something positive of dubya
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


110 posted 10-02-2011 07:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Arab states, for varied reasons, provided Yasser Arafat with considerable funding, particularly after the expulsion of the PLO from Lebanon in 1982 cut off many of the activities there. The PLO steadily received at least $100 million a year from the Arab states since 1973, but the amount has edged toward $250-300 million a year by the early 1990s. According to PLO records made public in 1988, the Saudi authorities over the previous decade had donated $855 million. Kuwait, announced that the Kuwaitis had provided Arafat’s organization with $2 billion over 26 years, probably a low-ball figure.

Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait was a financial disaster for the PLO. Arafat’s support of Saddam Hussein caused the loss of support from Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. The revenue from Kuwait was cut off and Iraq did not make up the shortfall. After Iraq’s defeat and expulsion from Kuwait, the PLO, in exile in Tunisia, was left far short of its prior levels of funding.

But Arafat and the PLO were bailed out by the peace process. Between the signing of the Oslo Accords in August 1993 and July 2000, the US Congress appropriated $900 million in foreign aid to the PLO/PA, with the aim of moderating the PLO, distancing it from Hamas and inducing compliance with commitments made in the peace process. In fact, foreign aid to the PLO – lacking accountability and transparency – achieved a perverse outcome, exacerbating PLO/PA corruption and undermining US interests in the Mideast.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_plo_finances.php

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


111 posted 10-02-2011 07:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

HAMAS receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activities take place in Western Europe and North America. As of 2003 US intelligence sources estimated that the militant Palestinian group Hamas had an annual budget of 50 million dollars, raising much of that money through its reputation as a charity. Despite its notoriety worldwide as a terrorist group, many Palestinians see Hamas as a charitable organization that builds schools and hospitals and steps in where the Palestinian Authority has failed.

The Syrian Government enables the Hamas leadership and its terrorist commanders to conduct their various activities on its soil, including the formulation of the Hamas operational strategy, the training of terrorist operatives, the funding of terrorist activity against Israel and assistance in the purchase of arms and ammunition.

The Hamas is active in a number of other countries in the Middle East, including Iran, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. These countries provide support and assistance in funding and operations training.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-funds.htm


Does anyone believe that these organizations are going to tolerate losing their finances or importance but acknowledging a peace process?
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


112 posted 10-02-2011 07:47 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Iran and Iraq just stopped fighting.  The US and Viet Nam just stopped fighting.  The IRA and GB just stopped fighting.

You said it yourself, most of the Israelis and Palestinians just want to live their lives.  Both sides have to stop mis-behaving.  Israel has to return to the 1967 borders, bring the settlers under control, and agree to divided control of Jerusalem.

There will still be talk, grudges, and dissent, on both sides, but in time, usually about a generation, people will just want to work, go home, and watch Palestinian Idol on TV.

If its going to happen though, it will have to be a conservative, like Bibi, at the helm in Israel for it to be accepted by the right wing militants.  Only Nixon could go to China.

Peace has to begin with 'our' side though.  Because until there is peace, the other side will always be the other side.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


113 posted 10-02-2011 08:41 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Vietnam? The fighting stopped because we finally realized that it was an unwinnable war that we shouldn't have been involved in the first place (thanks, JFK). On April 30th, 1975, after we left, South Vietnam surrendered to North Vietnam. The war was not resolved without a victory by one side, only our participation in it.

Israel will have to return to the 1967 borders? You know that will never happen...
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


114 posted 10-02-2011 08:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2YutsH-jf4&feature=relmfu
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


115 posted 10-02-2011 09:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

History of the West Bank...?

After the  war of 1947, Israel took control of it.

After the truce of 1950, it was occupied by Jordan.

After the was of 1967, Israel took control again.

Peace talk on the late '80's led to an agreement between Israel and the PLO for limited Palestinian self-rule.

So, to recap, Israel took control of it after the Arabs declared was and invaded. After a truce, they relinquished control of it to Jordan. In 1967 Israel took control of it again after being declared war upon....again.

The moral of this story.... Don't go around declaring war on and attacking people if you don't expect to lose something when you lose.

Now  the PLO is saying, "Forget we attacked you and give us our marbles back." Rotsa ruck.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


116 posted 10-02-2011 09:13 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

And that's why Japan is the 51st state......no, wait...thats not right...or legal.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


117 posted 10-02-2011 09:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obviously we didn't want Japan but, due to the victory, that's why we occupied Japan with our bases, which also goes for Okinawa and other japanese holdings.  That's also why we have Texas and several other states.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


118 posted 10-02-2011 10:10 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Contrast the way the Soviet approach vs. the American/Westen way via Geneva Conventions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

and occupation is always something to be proud of:

quote:


With the acceptance of the Allied occupation authorities the Japanese organized a brothel system for the benefit of the more than 300,000 occupation troops. "The strategy was, through the special work of experienced women, to create a breakwater to protect regular women and girls."
In December 1945 a senior officer with the Public Health and Welfare Division of the occupation's General Headquarters wrote regarding the typical prostitute:
"The girl is impressed into contracting by the desperate financial straits of her parents and their urging, occasionally supplemented by her willingness to make such a sacrifice to help her family," he wrote. "It is the belief of our informants, however, that in urban districts the practice of enslaving girls, while much less prevalent than in the past, still exists."
"The worst victims ... were the women who, with no previous experience, answered the ads calling for 'Women of the New Japan,"'
When MacArthur finally closed the brothels on March 25, 1946, it is estimated that more than 25% of the U.S. troops had sexually transmitted diseases.[40][41][42][43]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan



Annexation of Texas was illegal then, and moreso  now.  As would have been Japan, as is the West Bank.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


119 posted 10-02-2011 10:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Brothels for the troops??? That's what you have to resort to? If you're just trying to make me smile, you've succeeded.


Maybe we should give Texas back then? I think a lot of people might agree with you on that one
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


120 posted 10-02-2011 10:29 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I doubt if what you are trying to say is that Israeli soldiers have rounded up professional Palestinian hookers to set up brothels for the troops....more likely you are trying to point out that occupation is not a good thing. You'll get no argument there, which leads back to the same axiom....if you don't want to be occupied, don't declare war on someone and lose.

I must suppose you feel that, if the arabs had won any of the three wars they initiated, they wouldn't have occupied Israel?
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


121 posted 10-03-2011 02:32 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Hamas is a political party.  Hamas is a militant organization with paramilitary ambitions.  Hamas is also a charity that has been very effective in helping establish and run schools and hospitals.  Their school and hospital programs have made their politics very appealing to many of the Palestinians, and have helped bring a lot of otherwise  less political Palestinians into a more radical position in relationship with the Israelis.  Hating Hamas because the tactic is an effective one is sort of silly.  We have used similar approaches ourselves in our cold war foreign policy in some of our work in third world countries.  Mike should be familiar with the approach from his time in Southeast Asia.  We used the approach in Vietnam and also in Laos, where we used medical aid and attempted to help start schools and shipped in food aid through programs  funded by the U.S. Government.  Tom Dooley, one of my childhood idols, was very much involved in this as a medical missionary, for example.  He was also, it turned out, working for the CIA, and we were working throughout that area during that period to help channel the politics in the directions we wanted.

     We felt our motives were benign, and looked at in the most charitable light possible, they may certainly have had that element to them.  I can't say that in technique, however, they were very much different than what the conservative muslims are trying to do through Hamas in the Middle east; nor can I say that, in the most charitable light possible, they aren't trying to be helpful to their Muslim co-religionists by setting up schools, hospitals and the like in areas which need them very badly.

     When you look at them less charitably, there are lots of other motives involved in the private donors to Hamas and in the governmental donors as well.  Some donors will be spending money for more strictly political and military purposes, others for more srtrictly charitable reasons, just as was the case in the miud-fifties to the mid-sixties with those who supported Tom Dooley and his efforts in Laos and some of our earliest and most idealistic efforts in Vietnam.  Some folks were in it for ideals, some folks were in it for charity to seriously suffering and oppressed people, and some folks were wanting to  strike a blow against communism.  

     Some people gave out of complete confusion and haven't emerged from it since, and some folks haven't a clue and may still be doing a mixture of all of the above.  I think by characterizing Hamas purely as a terrorist oganization is a mistake, much like characterizing Sinn Fein purely as a political Party or the IRA as a Revolutionary Army with no connection with Sinn Fein.  In short, Hamas is both a Candy Mint and  a Breath Mint, just like the Palistinian and Israeli motivations are as well.

     If everybody doesn't feel like they've come out of this mess feeling as though they've been treated equally, or roughly equally, they''ll keep going at it either till they both feel that they are or until everybody's dead, which may be another way of saying the same thing in the least flexible way I can think of.

     I asked some questions a few posts back that I think are decent questions still.  Briefly,

quote:

If I am a Palestinian, what do I have to give up.  If I am an Israeli, what do I have to give up?

     If I am a Palestinian, what do I need and cannot under any circumstances give up?  If I am an Israeli, what is it that I cannot concede, no matter what?

Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


122 posted 10-03-2011 11:50 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“The most optimistic view of disengagement was that the Palestinians would begin to build in Gaza the state they claimed to have sought for some six decades. The international community showered money on the corrupt Palestinian Authority. Israel even left behind technologically innovative greenhouses that Jewish settlers built to grow flowers, fruits, and vegetables. Indeed, the settlers, who were paid off by American Jews to facilitate this gift, handed Gaza a multimillion-dollar export industry. Fast forward two years, and most of the greenhouses have been torched and looted.”

http://www.mitchellbard.com/articles/gazareturn.html


The greenhouses were pretty high-tech
state of the art . . .  They were destroyed
because they were built by Jews.

.

Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


123 posted 10-03-2011 02:04 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Well, that's the last straw John, start nuking NOW DAMMIT!
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


124 posted 10-03-2011 02:34 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ah, NOW we are back to normal. Well, the intelligent exchange was fun while it lasted.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Statehood   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors