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Passions in Poetry

Statehood

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Local Rebel
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50 posted 09-27-2011 06:03 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

So, John....a Potawatami family invades your house and throws you out in the street and says its their ancestral home and they have returned.

You cool with that?  
Bob K
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51 posted 09-27-2011 06:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Essorant, that last was a touch over the top, I think.  For myself,  it's clear the Palestinians have a right to exist, and I don't believe that there has been a question about that by anybody in Israel.  

     There are a bunch of Jewish nutcases who have trouble setting boundaries to their territorial ambitions in the area.  They are joined by a bunch of Christian nutcases who have similar difficulties.  These folks seem to have difficulty separating doctrinal time and  secular time, and they have given less religious folks trouble for a long time; probably long before monotheism came along, and people were quarreling about how many virgins should be torn apart and sacrificed to the magnus mater to ensure good harvests in the spring.

     They were probably as convinced as our folks are, and they probably felt the stakes were as high as well.

     Being modern, ours are probably either better or worse, depending on how you look at such things.  I'm sure you could find somebody to argue it either way.

     Unless you want to get into the argument of whose territorian and religious ambitions are holier and more righteous, to mind mind the only position that makes any sense is that they're both well-meaning idiots behaving badly.  As such, they've done any number of noble things with the best of intentions and had them go astoundingly  badly in what most of us would consider any sort of reasonably moral sense.

     Whose behaved worse at any one time is pretty much a matter of chance at any single period in history.  Both sides have encyclopedic memories for the wrongs done to them and have the ability to justify anything to anybody on the bases of those memories.  It's sort of awe-inspiring when you think about it.

     The Jews weren't thinking about the Palestineans right to exist in 1947 because all there was was Palestine, which was what was being partitioned in the first place.  There already was a Palestine, and it was giving birth to something else at the time.  Palestine was a Protectorate, but there is was none the less.  How were the Jews even supposed to imagine that Palestine wouldn't exist in some form or another after Partition.  There was going to be a Jewish section and a non-Jewish section, right?

     Perhaps you'd better fill me in on what your thinking is here, because  I know you're thinking something, and you generally make a lot of sense when you're thinking.  Please  help me make the leap here, because I simply don't follow what you're saying.

     I understand that a lot of Palestinians left the area, but that makes perfect sense to me. It's silly enough to volunteer to be in a place when one side is shooting at you; but when the other side is shooting back, you're volunteering to sit in the middle of a crossfire and everybody thinks you're the enemy.  You'd better be a fool to sit there, because then at least you can believe it's survivable.  I would've run away.

     The Jews' appropriation of the land seems criminal to me, as has a lot of the actions of the Jews in relationship to that land.

     On the other hand, I can't say much about the legality of land transfers in the area since the Romans destroyed the second temple and killed a million or more Jews in the area and shipped off the rest of them as slaves.  It's been a long hard fight.  The Ca'anites might have a comment or two to put in as well.  Oy.
Huan Yi
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52 posted 09-27-2011 08:32 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"So, John....a Potawatami family invades your house and throws you out in the street and says its their ancestral home and they have returned.

You cool with that?"


So at least we're not circling the real
problem . . .

I say the Jewish state of Israel has a right
to exist.  Anyone disagree?


.
Local Rebel
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53 posted 09-27-2011 09:02 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Essorant's over the top?  Cheeze Bob, that's MY job!

quote:

So at least we're not circling the real
problem . . .



Then you don't acknowledge the problem.  If I can borrow a non-kosher parable -  when you have ham and eggs, the chicken is involved but the pig is committed.
Huan Yi
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54 posted 09-28-2011 12:47 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I say the Jewish state of Israel has a right
to exist.  Anyone disagree?


.
Balladeer
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55 posted 09-28-2011 12:54 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Palestinian Authority will not be recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas said Saturday, adopting a belligerent tone ahead of his planned statehood bid in September. The Palestinian leader also criticized demands made by the International Quartet of his Authority, urging the international community to back off. "Don't order us to recognize a Jewish state," Abbas said. "We won't accept it."
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/08/abbas-we-wo  nt-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state.html

ABBAS WILL NOT RECOGNIZE ISRAEL AS THE JEWISH STATE http://www.jewpi.com/mr-abbas-recognize-israel-as-the-jewish-state/

Friday at the UN (text here), Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel of engaging in "ethnic cleansing."

Earlier, in a speech to 200 supposed "senior representatives of the Palestinian community in the U.S." (would that include Gaza flotilla organizers and Barack Obama pals Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn? Just askin'), Abbas declared, as relayed by Ynetnews.com, that "They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state."

Given that there would hardly be a point to covering Abbas's speech if readers knew of the just-cited statements, it's hardly surprising that the press is also in a non-recognition mode:


Read more: http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/  tom-blumer/2011/09/25/abbas-un-ethnic-cleansing-accusation-later-refusal-recognize-israel-abse#ixzz1ZDPldURd

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu demands that the Palestinian Authority recognize Israel as a “Jewish State.”  The Palestinian Authority’s President Mahmud Abbas refuses.  Netanyahu demands again and Abbas refuses.  Netanyahu tells the US Congress that if only Abbas would recognize Israel as a Jewish State then 90% of the conflict would be over; but Abbas refuses.

One might think that we are witness to two five-year-olds engaged in a playground argument: “Yes you will!”  “No I won’t!”  “You must!”  “I can’t!”

But one would be wrong.

The issue of Israel’s existence as a Jewish State is the very core of the conflict.  If Abbas, or any other Muslim leader for that matter, were to agree that Israel is a Jewish state, he would be in opposition to the Islamic religious concepts of “defense of Muslim lands” and of non-Muslims as dhimmi.


http://frontpagemag.com/2011/07/26/why-abbas-cannot-recognize-israel-as-a-jewish-state/  
Local Rebel
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56 posted 09-28-2011 02:11 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

John,

The Potawatami have agreed to let you have a bedroom, bathroom, and kitchen priveleges, but you dont get keys to the front or back door and you have to seek permission to use the hallways, and/or enter or leave the house, and you must agree to thier ownership of the house, oh, and you get no compensation for the value of the house or any of the contents in the rooms that are no longer yours.

Cool?
Balladeer
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57 posted 09-28-2011 10:14 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Maybe John shouldn't have declared war on  and attacked those Potawatami (3 times). Maybe John shouldn't be launching missiles aimed at Potawatami towns, killing their squaws and papooses.  Could be that John shouldn't be dressing his kids in suicide vests to blow up Potatawami in their churches and shopping plazas. Maybe that made those potatawami a little cranky....just a guess.
Huan Yi
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58 posted 09-28-2011 12:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

I'm not expecting a straight answer
to a straight question however.

.
Local Rebel
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59 posted 09-28-2011 12:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

As luck would have it Mike, the Potawatami are quite nervous with John's presence in the house, given the genocidal history the Europeans have with Native Americans.  They are, in response, posting armed guards - for his protection as well - outside his bedroom door and he will have to go through a complete search before using the hallways.

And, btw, they also need space for Uncle Joseph and aunt Clara, so, they'll be moving into his bedroom, but, hopefully, he won't bother them much.

John, there's nothing straight about your question.
Uncas
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60 posted 09-28-2011 02:18 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
I say the Jewish state of Israel has a right
to exist. Anyone disagree?


Yes.

.
Local Rebel
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61 posted 09-28-2011 03:49 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

When I was a boy, this is what we said in my house in the morning before breakfast and at night before bed, or before any prayer that was uttered:

"4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates."

My father was a mainline Protestant avocational minister and my mother was a Jewish Christian who would remind us every day that we may be Christians but we are still Jewish.

I'd like to know John, what is your impetus to be Israel's champion?
Balladeer
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62 posted 09-28-2011 06:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I can't speak for John but, as for myself, I believe the Jews are on the side of the right...and I'm NOT Jewish. Actually I didn't even see a Jew until I was 18 and in the service. There were none in my high school and no synagogues within at least 30 miles of my town....sounds incredible but that's the way it was, back in the hills of Missouri.

No need to list hows the Jews have been the whipping boys of  history. They were granted a country by the U.N. and  immediately attacked. Why? Muslims don't like them? Why? I really don't know. They did not attack Muslims, as far as I know. They took a barren, small part of the desert and turned it into a productive country. While surrounding countries have continued to live/in barren deserts outside of the main cities, they have turned those deserts into agricultural  positives. My guess is that muslims hate the fact that Israel could do that while they haven't even bothered. They have shamed the countries around them simply by being successful. They have been attacked three times and have defeated their attackers, even tough they were surrounded by them. I consider that to be an amazing feat in itself. They were the only democratic stronghold in the area, perhaps another reason why the muslims hate them. I don't think the muslims or the Palestinian people are bad people. I think they are being manipulated by their leaders. Why? If you run a country and the country next to you is much more successful where the citizens have more rights and a higher standard of living AND they are a different religion,  perhaps that would cause you to declare them an enemy. The terrorists groups like the PLO and Hamas have a much more beneficial reason....they make fortunes from being what they are and keeping the people stirred up.

Why do I champion Israel? For the same reason I would champion David against Goliath or a small boy walking home from school who gets surrounded by bullies. I believe it is moral and right to stand up for the right, regardless of public opinion, and I believe Israel is in the right.

There will never be peace in the Middle East. The muslim religion brands Jews as infidels that must be destroyed and their conflicts will not end until one side is....and that's a shame.
Local Rebel
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63 posted 09-28-2011 09:54 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Words to learn;

British Mandate for Palestine
Lehi
Irgun
Partition
Jewish Agency
Arab League
Trans Jordan Annex
Mediterranian Climate

And Happy Rosh Hashanah
Huan Yi
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64 posted 09-28-2011 11:45 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Uncas,


Thank you


.
Local Rebel
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65 posted 09-29-2011 12:52 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

With all of your glowing reviews about Isreal Mike, just wondering how you feel about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Israel

just wondering too, if you're working on that glosarry I gave you-- still think Isreal's past is so lily white?  I don't think your support has as much to do with 'rightness' as it does with 'RIGHTness'.
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66 posted 09-29-2011 01:07 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I haven't accepted homework since high school,reb.

What you don't think really isn't that important to me.
Local Rebel
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67 posted 09-29-2011 01:40 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:


Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.

This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

For the first time in many years, Mr. Stauffer has tallied the total cost to the US of its backing of Israel in its drawn-out, violent dispute with the Palestinians. So far, he figures, the bill adds up to more than twice the cost of the Vietnam War. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html




Aren't all of these subsidies to my cousins anti-capitalist?  socialist? aren't they going to make them lazy?  souldn't they be allowed to succeed or fail on their own merit?


Bob K
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68 posted 09-29-2011 01:50 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, it's easy to maintain your point of view if you refuse to consider information that you think might not support it.

     Is it possible for L.R. to present this stuff to you in some way that will allow you at least to look at it and think about it?  Even if you look at the information and find it convincing, you are not obligated to wish for the demise of Israel, you know.  I'm not.  I find a lot to admire about it.  I simply think that the country is following a series of suicidal foreign policies, and is ignoring the needs of the Palestinians who live on its borders and the only Palestinians who are in fact citizens of the State of Israel and who are frequently forced to function as second-class citizens there.

     This suggests that Israel's claims for being a Democracy may in some ways be as shallow as those of Athens, whose Democracy floated on the backs of slaves.  Israel is better than that, but the repression involved is something that I'm ashamed of, and repression tends to create a situation where those in power are fearful of those whom they repress.  In the ante-bellum American south, there was an ongoing fear of slave risings, and in Sparta, the subjegated peoples had to be kept ruthlessly in check with military force.

     It's one of the historical patterns that one sees over and over, and it's not surprising to see a version of it being played out between the Israelis and the Palestinians now.  We can see variations on the theme being played out in North America now, in French Canada and in the Southwestern United States between the Spanish influenced Indian cultures and the Anglo cultures.  These are conflicts that have been brewing for 500 years.

     All are variations on a colonial theme, and the rage of some of the populist forces in current American Culture represented by the Tea Party, for example, suggest that some of the same folks who can identify with the topdog in some of these conflicts can just as easily flip and identify with just as much a sense of righteous anger with the bottom dog in another conflict without any sense of dislocation at all.

     Humanity:  One Huge Laugh Riot.  That would be us.
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69 posted 09-29-2011 01:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Mike, it's easy to maintain your point of view if you refuse to consider information that you think might not support it.

Apparently, Bob, you feel you have the right to chastise over conversations in which you are not even involved.

You don't.
Local Rebel
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70 posted 09-29-2011 06:00 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Deir Yassin massacre

King David Hotel bombing

Assassination of Lord Moyne

CairoHaifa train bombings 1948

Assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte


Essorant
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71 posted 09-29-2011 05:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
For myself,  it's clear the Palestinians have a right to exist, and I don't believe that there has been a question about that by anybody in Israel.



It has never been clear that the Jews that believe in Zionism believe a Palestine (as a state), one not populated and ruled by a Jewish majority has a right to exist, or if it believes the Palestinians have any right to the land at all, which the Jews believe is their own ethnic homeland.  Zionism includes a belief that Jews have an ethnic right over the land(s) of its ancestors, which  basically includes all of the land of historical Palestine, and in the form of a Jewish state, has also come to mean having Jewish majority and privilige over the land: any co-majority, such as Palestinians, won't be accepted as long as it is "Jewish State" because it remains dedicated to making sure Jews are the priviliged majority.   So far Zionism has gotten its Jewish majority over more than 80% of the land.   That is clear.  What isn't clear is if it actually intends on not doing the same with the remainder.

The Palestinians have accepted Israel as a state, but I believe most don't accept the ethnic barrier of it being a "Jewish State" because that prevents the majority of Palestinians from having any right to and being able to enjoy the majority of what is their homeland as well - the land that is currently Israel, where both Jews and Palestinians should both be able to enjoy their homeland.  Israel will not accept a binational state, with a co-majority of Palestinians. It demands a Jewish majority only, which means the majority of Palestinians can only live on the minority of their homeland.  But how safely kept for them is is the minority of their homeland, when Israel continues its occupation and continues to send more of its populations there to make more and more settlements?  

What part of this is Israel's recognition of a right for the Palestinians to live in their homeland, without the majority eventually being forced out so Israel can have all of the land for a "Jewish State"/Jewish majority?

It IS a land Issue.  And that is why  Israel's politicians do everything to try to make it out as if it is about everything or anything but that.

Bob K
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72 posted 09-29-2011 08:59 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike,
           You apparently think you are having a private emailk discussion with one other party.  As long as you are having that conversation on a public forum of which I am a member, you are mistaken.

     Care to try again, but more poilitely this time?
Bob K
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73 posted 09-29-2011 09:03 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     What is a co-majority?
Local Rebel
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74 posted 09-29-2011 09:32 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

I don't know but,

I was having this same conversation IRL with a friend who is a staunch Catholic who said, referencing the 1.6 trillion spent on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, it was worth every penny-- and I finally got the answer I expected 'God's chosen people'.  And, its a chance to stick a finger in the eye of Islam.

I had a flashback to one of my father's brothers who used to tell people they couldn't mess with me because I was 'God's chosen people' -- except, he was kidding.
 
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