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Passions in Poetry

Statehood

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Uncas
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25 posted 09-24-2011 11:52 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
I can give you three wars delcared on Israel since it's inception. How many can you give me where Israel declared war on others without being attacked first?


Isn't that just more smoke and mirrors Mike? More they did this and they did that?

Gaining UN status allows the Palestinians to do one thing of any consequence and one thing only - present a case against Israel that can be heard at the UN and the international court. The only reason anyone wouldn't want that to happen is the fear that they might actually have a valid case they could win.

If Israel was convinced that it's the innocent party and they were really interested in getting the issue settled they'd be clamouring to have their day in court.

Why do you think Israel and the US are breaking their necks trying to stop Palestine getting UN recognition? The argument that Obama is suggesting - that it would endanger the peace process - is nonsensical. If Palestine were a member of the UN that would additional leverage that could be used against them - abide by the UN majority ruling or face expulsion and sanctions.

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Huan Yi
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26 posted 09-24-2011 11:58 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“the UN can't possibly do any worse. “


“The following is a list of United Nations resolutions that concern Israel and bordering states such as Lebanon. The Human Rights Council has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

  

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Balladeer
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27 posted 09-25-2011 12:09 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Smoke and mirrors? Being attacked three times against zero is smoke and mirrors? I would say your response is more smoke and mirrors than three wars? I'll ask again...what about that? And what about the ABBAS statements that he wants to kill all jews?

Israel would be afraid to take their case to the UN? No, I think they would simply recognize the folly of it. Israel was attacked immediately after Israel was formed....by   the UN. What did the UN do about that? What they always do....nothing. If Abbas presents his case to the UN and things go his way, he will be pleased. If they go against him, he will disregard the UN. That's a given.
Balladeer
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28 posted 09-25-2011 12:17 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The Palestinians will continue to demand the right of return fo r millions of refugees to their original homes inside Israel even after the UN recognizes a Palestinian state along the June 4, 1967, lines, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said on Sunday.

From what I see, that is the  crux of the whole issue. Flooding Israel with millions of Arabs would weaken the country immeasurably. I believe Abbas is planning for that. He needs for Palestine to be a state to present it and, as he has said, if the vote goes against him, he will simply disregard the decision.

Uncas
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29 posted 09-25-2011 12:40 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas



Give me one advantage that Palestine gains by being recognised by the UN as a state that is unfairly detrimental to Israel, one single example of how Palestine being recognised hurts Israel, because, every which way I look at it, I honestly can't see any.

They're going to get recognition regardless Mike when it goes to an Assembly vote, all the US is managing to do is put off the inevitable and alienate every country that's in favour of Palestinian statehood in the process.

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Bob K
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30 posted 09-25-2011 01:35 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I disagree with the notion of Virtual Statehood.  I think it's interesting if the only place the state exists is on the internet, but you can't settle real people within virtual boundaries or buy virtual property to build real houses and businesses upon.  It's a confusion of levels of reality.  Your fantasy life is protected, pretty much; you can think and imagine what you will.  When you start to act on the fantasies in real life, you may have some problems.

     If you want to have a Sim country, that's fine with me but, I believe, that's not what the Palestinians want nor what the Israelis fear, by and large.  I would like to see the reality worked out, too, by the way.

     Exactly where are you going to put Palestinian immigrants to the virtual country you propose, Uncas?  A virtual country doesn't grant access to current Israeli territory to those immigrants, it only creates a situation ambiguous enough for some of them to believe that walking obnyo land that Israel claims as Israeli land and defends as Israeli land will not provoke real life retaliation.  Perhaps the creation of martyrs is a thing you believe is useful.  I see it as a way of predictably setting up a world wide militrary reaction against Israel.

     I am not the sort of guy that thinks that creating a potential conflagration with mass deaths on both sides and a potential world war as a result to be a suitable resolution for the situation.  For one thing, I don't believe it would create a Palestinian State.  For another, I suspect it would result in the deaths of the Jews already in Israel.

     This is not an outcome I feel happy about risking.

     Are the Israelis being wrong-headed?

     I would have to say so.  I would also have to say the Palestinians are being wrong headed as well.  While the arabs have started a number of wars in the area, I believe that, unlike Mike, that the Israelis have done so as well through a number of ill-considered incursions into Lebanon that did not accomplish their purpose and through a series of provocations involving settlements on the west bank that broke agreements they had worked out with the Palestinians in brokered talks, and in signed agreements.

     And yes, the Palestinians have been fully as stupid fully as many times, though I think it's a mistake to confuse the Palestinians themselves with some of the arab countries that have used the Palestinians as cat's paws.  The Palestinians don't have the power, money or troops to stage an invasion; they are not a nation state.  

     The invasions have come from Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran and Jordan, countries which have had the money to field armies and which have used that money to field them.  The distinction has seldom been made in these pages because some of these countries have, at least nominally, been U.S. allies from time to time; places we have spent considerable money of our own defending without  making appropriate demands for a quid pro quo change in their Israel and Palestine policies.

     Just some thoughts.
Huan Yi
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31 posted 09-25-2011 01:58 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

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“The following is a list of United Nations resolutions that concern Israel and bordering states such as Lebanon. The Human Rights Council has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

The hostility of the UN as a body toward Israel is a mathematical fact .


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Uncas
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32 posted 09-25-2011 06:02 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Exactly where are you going to put Palestinian immigrants to the virtual country you propose, Uncas?


Exactly where they are right now Bob. The virtual country notion is nothing more than the acceptance that Palestine is a state - that it exists as an entity - the lines on the map that define where it exists can be drawn later. Is that an absurd idea? Well ask yourself this, is it any more absurd than the situation at present, there are no lines on the map today Bob, Palestine isn't recognised as a state but it exists.

As I said this question is a little moot - Palestine will get UN statehood - either via the Security Council or the General Assembly, the virtual state of Palestine will, at that point, be a reality.

quote:
The hostility of the UN as a body toward Israel is a mathematical fact .


Logic would suggest that Israel is doing something that a majority of the 193 member countries believe is wrong.

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Balladeer
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33 posted 09-25-2011 06:21 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Uncas, I gave you the example in my response preceding yours, unless you feel that flooding Israel with millions of Arabs is not going to damage and weaken them?

all the US is managing to do is put off the inevitable and alienate every country that's in favour of Palestinian statehood in the process.

Your assumption is that there are muslim countries in the area that have been friends of the U.S. up to now??

What will be the next rallying cry after Palestine? Many muslim leaders have said publicly that their ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel and death to the jews. The U.S. supports Israel? I say bravo. Israel has not declared war on anyone. Israel is a democratic beacon in an area where barbaric sharia law is practiced. Israel has taken a small part of the desert and turned it into a prosperous and productive country, much to the chagrin of neighboring countries. Perhaps it is not right politically to side with  people or countries just because one feels they are on the right side of decency..but I'm glad the American government does. When we sell that last piece of our soul, there won't be much left.
Local Rebel
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34 posted 09-25-2011 08:46 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Bob,

The virtual state merely consists of a constitution, governing body, and citizens.  Those citizens can live anywhere in the world, may have dual citizenship within the nation they reside, or not, but would have to live by the laws of that government as any ex-pat would.

If the word 'virtual' bothers you, think of it as a diasporic state.  What, for example, would we do as United States citizens if some huge disaster struck our continental territory and the survivors had to move en mass to Mexico?  Do they all become Mexicans?

Virtual citizenship is already a component Isreal practices - regarding any Jew, living anywhere in the world- a virtual citizen ( with right of return) if they desire it.

UN resolutions are not legally binding, obviously 193 is in effect whether or not Palestine is granted Statehood, so the point is moot.  On the other hand, virtual statehood would be a good lever towards 1967 borders and resettlement.
Huan Yi
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35 posted 09-25-2011 10:20 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Logic would suggest that Israel is doing something that a majority of the 193 member countries believe is wrong"


Yes, it exists.


.
Balladeer
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36 posted 09-25-2011 12:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The perfect response, John.
Essorant
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37 posted 09-25-2011 12:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

What part of the Palestinians' experience of An-Nakba, of their experience of Plan Dalet, of their experience of Israel continuing to immiserate them with occupation and military interference and divide them with walls and checkpoints at the same time as saying it wishes to make peace, of Israel at the same time saying it agrees to work toward the two-state solution, continuing to steal land and expand settlement of its own people in the only remnant land left to the Palestinians, what part of this experience is supposed to be the one that inspires the Palestinians to have growing tolerance for Israel and confidence that Israel has any true intention of allowing a Palestinian state to exist?  

I believe the only hope for the Palestinians is help from the outside to stand up for Palestine's right to exist as a state and give the means to try make sure it gets to exist.  If Israel gets to continue to lord it over the situation and determine the outcome, I have no doubt it will just continue doing what it has been doing and leave the Palestinians with as little land as possible.  Israel has no shame about taking as much land as it can because to Israel the land already inherently belongs to Israel to begin with, and if it can get away with this and never need to face any consequences it will continue doing it until all the land is considered Israel and there is no room for a Palestinian state anymore.  
 
Uncas
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38 posted 09-25-2011 12:49 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
"Logic would suggest that Israel is doing something that a majority of the 193 member countries believe is wrong"


Yes, it exists.


So you think that the UN doesn't want Israel to exist, if that were true why did they partition Palestine and create Israel in the first place? Why did the UN recognise Israel as a state and allow it to join the UN? Why hasn't a single reunification resolution been proposed and passed?

Have you any credible evidence to support this bizarre conspiracy theory?

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Bob K
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39 posted 09-25-2011 06:27 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Israel has been doing a number of things that the General Assembly and the Security Counsel have thought were wrong.  Some of them were probably actually as wrong as these bodies thought they were.  Some I suspect were not and were a response to pressure from one side or the other during the cold war and to pressure brought about by oil producing countries for reasons that were partly legitimate and were partly a result of other more political factors which might have included pressure internal to those countries on matters involving internal events in those countries.

     Israel was not alone in behaving shabbily, and a large part of those resolutions may reflect that.  

     I have serious doubts that all 193 resolutions reflect a single cause.  I doubt that all 193 resolutions even have an Israeli cause.

     This is not to say that Israelis can't be jerks, can't be blamed for many things — such as land grabs and provocations.  They can be, and I do fault them for many instances of such things.

     All 193 resolutions are, however, complaints about single instances, as far as I know.  Amplifying this into a single huge complaint against Israel is simply inaccurate.  The 193 instances are bad enough without making them into something they are not.

     Palestine should be granted Statehood.  It is their right.  When Palestine was initially partitioned, boundaries were laid out, but were not respected by either the Palestinians nor the Jews.  Invasion by arab forces did not help.  There was a short, sharp ugly war.

     If the Arabs and the Palestinians had won, I personally have questions as to whether there would have been Jews left on the ground to continue the quarrel.  Indeed, it might have been possible, but each time the Arabs have invaded the territory, the question has been for the Jews, will there be any Jews left here surviving if we lose.

     I am aware of this perception, and so is, I believe, everybody writing here.

     If the perception is accurate or not, I do not know; but a large part of the Israelis believe it, and a large part of the Jews in the rest of the world believe it.  Whether or not you believe it is another question, I think; relevant, interesting, important — all of these, yes — but probably not decisive for some odd but probably not inexplicable reason.

     The Palestinians are a much abused people.  They have been wronged not only by the Jews, but also by the Brits, the French and most of the Muslims in the region over the last hundred years or so, going back at least as far as the Sykes-Picot Treaty that divvied up much of the Ottoman territory after World War I.  

     The Palestinians have a great deal to be angry about, including a great deal of the wrongs they have attributed to the Jews; many of them seem to me to be real.  Many of the wrongs the Jews attribute to the Palestinians may be real as well, by the way.

     The thing I am trying to get at here is that the Palestinians have not spent a lot of time speaking to the Jews about their intentions in this struggle being other than what the Jews believe them to be.  Now the Palestinians may have other notions which they hold privately which suggest that they don't wish to kill the Jews, remove them from the State of Israel or dispose of them in so tidy, long term but non-lethal fashion.  If they have such plans, however, neither they nor their friends, nor their allies have confided them to me.

     If any of my friends here have knowledge of these plans and they are well publicized and well circulated among the ranks of the Palestinians, I would very much like to know what they are, because I think that such knowledge and the fact that these plans were widely spread and widely acknowledged within the Palestinian community would amount to being a serious game changer as far as the Israelis are concerned.

     The Israelis would probably still be stiff necked, and there would probably still be a large number of jerks there, but I suspect that the notion that an agreement would not result in large scale death would make any number people far more reasonable than they are now.  This may be simple wishful thinking on my part, of course.  And it doesn't mean that I still wouldn't want the Palestinians to have their own country, and that it shouldn't happen now; but it probably would mean that it would be more likely to happen in reality.
Balladeer
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40 posted 09-25-2011 07:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So you think that the UN doesn't want Israel to exist, if that were true why did they partition Palestine and create Israel in the first place?

That was a different UN, Uncas. In the first place you are gloing back almost 70 years. Second, I feel that you are fairly aware od the UN Partition plan of 1947.

Invasion by arab forces did not help.  There was a short, sharp ugly war.

Did not help is  quite the understatement. Who started that sharp, ugly war anyway? When one initiates a war and loses, are they the victim when the winning side doesn't give them their land back? I think you can find quite a few instances in history where that has occured. Solution....don't start a war.

Look, I'm no expert on the subject. I've never been to Palestine. I can't make a call on how life is there or who is the nastier. All I know is that senator Lieberman said on the news today that Netanyahoo (sp) has only one demand of Abbas, that he recognizes the right of Israel to exist. According to Lieberman, Netanyahoo would agree to many consessions if he only got that. Abbas will not do it. What does that tell you?
Huan Yi
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41 posted 09-25-2011 10:11 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“The following is a list of United Nations resolutions that concern Israel and bordering states such as Lebanon. The Human Rights Council has passed more resolutions condemning Israel than it has all other states combined”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel


“Establishment of the State of Israel

On May 14, 1948, the last British forces left Haifa. The Jewish Agency, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the establishment of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Ben-Gurion became Prime Minister of the new state. Both superpower leaders, U.S. President Harry S. Truman and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, immediately recognized the new state.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#United_Nations_Partition_Plan


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Bob K
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42 posted 09-25-2011 10:37 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The extent to which the Palestinians were caught between the Jews on one side and the pressures of the arab states on the other is hard to appreciate.  I think that the Arabs put a lopt of pressure on them to get out of the way.  I think that anybody who stays in the bath of advancing armies when he don't absolutely have to is a fool who is trying to become a dead fool because he's stupid enough to think of it as a promotion.  I think the Palestinians who left were the smart ones.

     If they'd stayed, they likely have been killed.

    I don't care what motives you would care to ascribe to them.  The Jews say one thing, the arabs say another and the Palestinians  say one thing or the other and sometimes they same something else.  It doesn't matter.  They were smart to leave.

     The Jews took advantage of their leaving by appropriating their land and not making sure that the title was  cleare and aboveboard in a neutral court.  If the Jews weren't resentful in that situation, I can't imagine how they avoided that feeling.  If the Palestinians didn't feel cheated, then they were probably saints with poor reality perception.  It was a miserable set of circumstances for everybody all around, and the misery continues to this day.  Everybody is absoluitely clear that they are right, and I cannot disagree with any of them, because everybody behaved as best they could and that simply wasn't good enough.  It just wasn't.

     Anything that people say to suggest that it was good enough is probably correct only by isolating one small piece of the whole affair and examining it in isolation, without bringing in the other parts of the situation that make them look less than noble.

     Everybody had moments of brilliant nobility, you may be sure of that.  Everybody had moments of acting, to put it kindly, in ways that they would probably  would rather remember differently or remember not at all.

     So how are we going to salvage something clear and decent out of this whole thing?  

     I'd say that there are two things that need to happen.  The Palestinians need to have a real continuous state with access to atheir own deep-water port, and The jews need to understand that the Palestinians are not interested in killing them, and that the survival of Israel is Okay with the Palestinians.  Given those two condition, I think there's a lot of room for discussion.  Without those conditions, I think there isn't any.

     Imagine, for a second, what would the Palestinian reaction be if the Jews refused to acknowledge the right of the Palestinians to exist?  And if the Jews predicated their foreign and military policy on that point of doctrine.

     Not Good, that's my thought;  very not good.  
Local Rebel
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43 posted 09-25-2011 10:45 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

According to Lieberman, Netanyahoo would agree to many consessions if he only got that. Abbas will not do it. What does that tell you?



Tells me he's opening negotiations from his only strength.  But, Bebe is right.  Abbas is right.  The problem is History is all wrong.
Essorant
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44 posted 09-26-2011 02:25 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

From Abbas' speech to the UN:

"Our efforts are not aimed at isolating Israel or de-legitimizing it; rather we want to gain legitimacy for the cause of the people of Palestine. We only aim to de-legitimize the settlement activities and the occupation and apartheid and the logic of ruthless force, and we believe that all the countries of the world stand with us in this regard."

"Let us build the bridges of dialogue instead of checkpoints and walls of separation, and build cooperative relations based on parity and equity between two neighboring States - Palestine and Israel - instead of policies of occupation, settlement, war and eliminating the other."
http://www.imemc.org/article/62102
Huan Yi
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45 posted 09-26-2011 05:29 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Did he say or ever say
Israel has a right to exist?


.
Bob K
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46 posted 09-26-2011 07:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Essorant's quotes are appropriate, as are the aims Abbas lists in them.  They represent in many ways those things that Israel wanted for itself in 1947 from a somewhat different perspective.  I support them.

     John raises a legitimate point as well, and he should be acknowledged for filling in the gaps of what Abbas did not say and could not, in all likelihood, say while hoping to maintain power.  Abbas is in a situation where he must please two different camps within his own ethnic group, and I believe they are almost at war with each other.  I am amazed he is doing as well as he is.

     Bibi Netanyahu has similar ground to cover among the Israelis.  The factions in Israel are equally difficult and have shown willingness, at least on the far right, to use assassination if they feel their political opponents are acting as they were elected to act.  Should Netanyahu attempt to make some sort of bridging efforts, it may be speculated — by me, if by nobody else — that these efforts might possibly be somewhat better tolerated by the right that similar efforts have been when attempted by the left.

     The American example would be, “It took a Nixon to open relations with China.”  The conventional wisdom here being that had a Democrat attempted such actions, the American Right would never have tolerated them, and would have done its best to sabotage any agreements coming from negotiations.  While I happen to agree with this conventional wisdom, I have to say that the conclusion is speculative and it is possible that the American Right might have undergone a change of heart.

     I must also acknowledge that I’ve drifted off the subject.

     It would be nice if Netanyahu was able to follow up swiftly on Abbas’s comments with a specific counterproposal that offered specific generous land agreements, including withdrawal from the West bank and development aid proposals for partnership in development of Palestinian infrastructure drawing on aid from Arab and Jewish donors in return for acknowledgment of Israel and a mutual defense treaty.

     Call me a cockeyed optimist.
Essorant
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47 posted 09-27-2011 02:08 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
Did he say or ever say
Israel has a right to exist?



He stated the wish for a peaceful two state-solution with Israel.  How is that not the same as recognizing Israel's right to exist as a state?  

He is also Chairman of the PLO EC and the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist years ago in the "Letters of Mutual Recognition".  

What rights of the Palestinians were the Jews forced to recognize before they could have their state?
Huan Yi
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48 posted 09-27-2011 03:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

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Let him just say it


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Huan Yi
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49 posted 09-27-2011 05:05 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“As Israel’s ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, wrote in the Washington Post this past Friday (emphasis added):

Two Israeli peace proposals, in 2000 and 2008 . . . met virtually all of the Palestinians’ demands for a sovereign state in the areas won by Israel in the 1967 war — in the West Bank, Gaza and even East Jerusalem. But Palestinian President Yasser Arafat rejected the first offer and Mahmoud Abbas ignored the second, for the very same reason their predecessors spurned the 1947 Partition Plan. Each time, accepting a Palestinian State meant accepting the Jewish State, a concession the Palestinians were unwilling to make.

That is the issue. Not settlements. Not boundaries. The Palestinians, like most of their fellow Arabs and like many Muslims elsewhere, have never acknowledged that the Jews came home to Israel because they have never acknowledged that the Jews ever had a national home there. And they don’t even acknowledge that the Jews are a people.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278417/palestinians-wan t-peace-just-not-jewish-state-dennis-prager?page=2

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