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Iraq

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Uncas
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0 posted 06-17-2011 02:25 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Iraqi government forces have been killing civilians and suppressing protests against the corrupt and oppressive government since January.

The world was quick to act in Libya, there are rumblings from some quarters of a possible intervention in Syria, so where are the calls for an intervention in Iraq to protect and support the civilian protesters there? Where's the media outcry?

Will the UN or US take any action against the Iraq government? A few missiles perhaps, a push for regime change, sanctions?

.
Huan Yi
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1 posted 06-17-2011 03:34 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Iran's been doing the same for how long?
And they're out to make a big bomb
with which, along with the little bombs
they have or support, they want to dominate
the region and effect a final solution.
My vote says, if anyone, them first.


.
Uncas
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2 posted 06-18-2011 06:09 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Haven't the UN and US have already started to address the issues in Iran? They've imposed sanctions and there's even more pressure from some quarters for military intervention in Iran than there is in Syria but Iraq doesn't even seem to be on the radar.

Why is that?

.
Ron
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3 posted 06-18-2011 10:50 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

LOL. How many people did you really expect to walk into your web, Uncas? Perhaps you would be better served by abandoning feints and simply making your case up front?
Uncas
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4 posted 06-18-2011 12:44 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Was it a web?

I guess it was - of sorts.

I was trying to make a point, well a couple actually, though I fully expected most people to recognise the fact that I was pre-greasing a slope and inviting them onto it.

Should I take the first steps?

Sure, why not.

I could argue that the protesters are different, the Egyptians, Libyans etc are good citizens fighting oppressive regimes and the Iraqi's are Muslim terrorists trying to derail the valiant efforts to build a democratic government. Unfortunately there's little evidence that those 'good/bad' labels are applicable, not to mention the danger of selective demonization based on a biased perspective - the enemy of my friend and all that jazz.

Are there any more valid reasons to ignore the events in one middle-eastern country while taking action against another?

.
Denise
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5 posted 06-18-2011 01:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I guess it depends on which countries you are trying to facilitate the establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood, or which countries assert their sovereign right to use the gold standard. Human rights has nothing to do with any of it.

The 90 days for the War Powers Act is up tomorrow for all troops to be totally withdrawn and military action to cease absent Congressional authorization. Surprise! O says it doesn't apply. Must be nice to be King.
Balladeer
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6 posted 06-18-2011 02:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

we did recognize your greased slope, uncas. that's why you didn't get the responses you were hoping for.Not even a good try this time....
Uncas
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7 posted 06-18-2011 05:49 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


I'm glad that you recognised the slippery slope argument Mike, I'm a little surprised that you'd avoid addressing it though.

quote:
Human rights has nothing to do with any of it.


I absolutely agree with the statement above Denise, the US government doesn't give a hoot about the rights of anyone in the middle east. The stuff about the gold standard and the Muslim Brotherhood though doesn't make much sense to me - care to elaborate?


.
Balladeer
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8 posted 06-18-2011 06:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Why in the world would I address it, seeing it for  what it was? I actually do have better things to do......honest.
Uncas
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9 posted 06-18-2011 06:56 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Why in the world would I address it, seeing it for what it was?


To agree or disagree that the slippery slope exists perhaps? Or maybe to explain how anyone can call for action in Libya and Syria while ignoring the events in other middle-eastern countries, including Iraq.

Obviously the absurd option at the bottom of the slippery slope - to call for action against Iraq - was out of the question but I thought you might have an opinion on why it was so absurd.

.
Denise
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10 posted 06-18-2011 07:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Apparently Obama only intervenes in the Middle East if it facilitates the Muslim Brotherhood or when France gets bent about Libya wanting gold instead of dollars for his oil.
Balladeer
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11 posted 06-19-2011 12:29 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

no, you wanted me to voice it's absurdity so you could counter anything I said with arguments to the contrary. you don't look for exchanges, you look for confrontations. As I said, better things to do.
Uncas
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12 posted 06-19-2011 06:58 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

quote:
no, you wanted me to voice it's absurdity so you could counter anything I said with arguments to the contrary


I was certainly hoping you'd say it was absurd Mike but I definitely wouldn't have argued the point - because it's blatantly obvious that it is absurd. The web that Ron mentioned was that once you've accepted the absurdity of expecting the UN and US to react in Iraq you're trapped into accepting that a 'one size fits all' answer to events in Syria and the rest of the middle-east is equally absurd.

I wasn't building a web to instigate confrontation Mike - I was a using a reductio ad absurdum arguement to create consensus.

quote:
Apparently Obama only intervenes in the Middle East if it facilitates the Muslim Brotherhood or when France gets bent about Libya wanting gold instead of dollars for his oil


Or when the country has an ' i ' in its name, or perhaps only when the perceived benefit to the US outweighs the potential cost.

.
Denise
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13 posted 06-19-2011 09:01 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Nothing that he has done has benefited the U.S., Uncas.
Balladeer
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14 posted 06-19-2011 09:05 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not sure what the "trapped into accepting the one size fits all" refers to. In my personal case. I made my feelings clear in the other thread..

I don't believe we should be  a driving force in getting involved in Syria any more than we should be in Libya. I don't know how a president could involve us in Libya WITHOUT involving us in Syria. In short, I cannot follow his reasoning here at all. It all seems very poorly orchestrated, in my opinion.

The only people it would be a "trap" to would be anyone who endorses the Libya intervention while condemning the thought of Syrian intervention. I haven't seen anyone here doing that.
Uncas
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15 posted 06-19-2011 09:46 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Not sure what the "trapped into accepting the one size fits all" refers to. In my personal case.


That one's easy to answer Mike, in fact you answered it yourself..

quote:
I don't know how a president could involve us in Libya WITHOUT involving us in Syria.


Extend that down the slippery slope I mentioned Mike and you end up at the absurdity of arguing that the President should be taking action against the Iraqi government - after all how can take action in Libya and Syria WITHOUT taking action in Iraq.

quote:
Nothing that he has done has benefited the U.S., Uncas.


Really Denise? Absolutely nothing?

Balladeer
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16 posted 06-19-2011 10:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Is there someone advocating that Obama should be taking action against the Iraqi government?
Uncas
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17 posted 06-19-2011 10:59 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

quote:
Is there someone advocating that Obama should be taking action against the Iraqi government?


In a slippery slope kinda way Mike yes - you are.



Your argument in the Syria tread is that you don't think that the US should have acted against Libya but the fact that they have somehow makes them obliged to respond in the same way in Syria and every other middle-eastern country that violently suppresses protestors -  including Iraq.

quote:
I don't know how a president could involve us in Libya WITHOUT involving us in Syria.


This premise is seriously flawed Mike, you can see how absurd it is if you take it to its unavoidable conclusion:

I don't know how a president could involve us in Syria WITHOUT involving us in Iraq.

.

[This message has been edited by Uncas (06-19-2011 11:32 AM).]

Huan Yi
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18 posted 06-19-2011 11:32 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.
Shortly before the war that eventually took him out
it was reported that Saddam spent some thirty million
dollars to have a trench dug in Syria.   Did anyone ever find
out what was put in it?

What happened to the ruins of that facility the Israelis
bombed that was alleged to be part of a Syrian nuclear
weapons program?


.
Denise
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19 posted 06-19-2011 12:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Absolutely nothing, Uncas.
Denise
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20 posted 06-19-2011 12:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

He does have quite the list of Historical Firsts, gotta give him that:
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/06/president-barack-obamas-complete-list.html
Balladeer
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21 posted 06-19-2011 12:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

yep, this is about the way I figured it would go. have a nice day...
Uncas
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22 posted 06-19-2011 01:18 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


You make Obama sound like evil personified Denise - a president who has done absolutely nothing that benefits the US in any way.  I'm a little curious though, do you think he's actively conspiring to destroy America?
quote:
yep, this is about the way I figured it would go.


I've no idea what that means Mike, you figured that someone would point out that your premise was flawed or that you knew that the slippery slope comparison of Libya and Syria led to an absurd conclusion?

I hope you have a nice day too.

Huan Yi
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23 posted 06-19-2011 03:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Once the mass murderer Stalin,
(aided and abetted by some in the West
who thought they were doing the world a favor),
set off his own bomb things went back to the
same measure.   Who threatens us, and maybe next
who threatens our friends.   Thatís when we should
send our young men, even volunteers, to die.  


.
Balladeer
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24 posted 06-19-2011 04:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, uncas, how I knew it would go was that you would take anything said and present it in a way that contradicts the thoughts give to prolong an argument. Case in point...

Your argument in the Syria tread is that you don't think that the US should have acted against Libya but the fact that they have somehow makes them obliged to respond in the same way in Syria and every other middle-eastern country that violently suppresses protestors -  including Iraq.


No, my argument was that OBAMA should not have acted against Libya.  You may counter that with Obama IS America, being president, and the fact that we elected him makes his decisions our decisions. I will then counter that American people did NOT vote for going into Libya. Congress did not vote for going into Libya. It was all Obama;s decision. You may then take that and say..regardless, Obama speaks for America, being president, and you can keep the argument going for as long as you like, which seems to be you main objective.


I will stand by my flawed and absurd statement, as you so happily point out that it is. How can Obama not justify going into Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Iran, North Korea or ANY country experiencing internal strife by citizens demanding freedom, since that was his only reasoning for going into Libya?  He can't, which means that his decision to go into Libya was a mistake on his part. WHen I pointed this out before, you countered with the statement that there WAS a positive going into Libya, to scare other countries....a fairy weak response I would say  but it DID keep the what I consider to be your main reason for the thread, going...

That's how I knew it was going to go and that's how it went and that's why it doesn't interest me any longer.
 
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