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Syria

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Balladeer
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75 posted 05-22-2013 10:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ess, I fail to see any connection between my responses and your last entry.
Huan Yi
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76 posted 05-23-2013 03:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


And yet more people emigrate
to the US than to all other countries
combined . . .


.
Essorant
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77 posted 06-02-2013 10:36 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Balladeer,

It seemed like you were implying it was wrong for Obama to support the Muslim Brotherhood.   I was just pointing out that one could also make support for the US look "wrong" by demonizing the US for many of its problems.

Essorant
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78 posted 06-02-2013 11:06 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
And yet more people emigrate
to the US than to all other countries
combined . . .


When I went to school many a bully was more popular than most other people.  Popularity is a very unreliable way of judging the character or quality of someone or something.
Huan Yi
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79 posted 06-05-2013 07:57 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


No USA bully
is forcing people
to emigrate to the
United States of America


.
Huan Yi
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80 posted 06-05-2013 08:01 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I see this cry
about chemical weapons
as if somehow it makes dead
different from a bullet . . .


It's war there
which is about winning
whatever it takes . . .


And I see Russia
has jumped in with the prospect
of anti-aircraft missiles
which tell everyone outside to back off . . .


.
Essorant
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81 posted 06-06-2013 01:25 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Of course they aren't being forced.   A charismatic bully is often popular because people want to share the power of being friends with the person, or the saftey of being protected by someone so powerful, the wealth they have, the support of others that support the bully, etc.   Of course it is a choice.  

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82 posted 06-07-2013 08:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"A charismatic bully"

Like Stalin?
Pol Pot?


.
Essorant
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83 posted 06-08-2013 01:51 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Bullies can come in many varities.      Alongside examples of bullies, you can also include myriads of celebrities that are horrible role models but are very popular and make millions of dollars.    My point was simply that attracting a lot of people doesn't make the US a superior country.
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84 posted 06-10-2013 07:49 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"My point was simply that attracting a lot of people doesn't make the US a superior country."


It's just as easy to leave . . .


.
Huan Yi
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85 posted 06-13-2013 07:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“Syrian forces under President Bashar al-Assad have used chemical weapons "on a small scale" against the opposition rebels, the White House has said.

A senior aide to President Barack Obama said the US estimated 100-150 people had died in "multiple" attacks.

Ben Rhodes said the US president had decided to provide unspecified "military support" to the opposition.

The White House had previously warned that the US considers the use of such weapons crossing a "red line".”


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22899289


And this is so different from  . . . because?


Are we supporting "freedom" fighters;

wasn't there a video of one of them
eating a dead soldier's heart;

wasn't there a video of them
killing captives?


.

Essorant
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86 posted 06-16-2013 04:38 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

If we are going to go by worst examples, the US military is far from not providing many of its own horror stories.   Wasn't there a US soldier that killed sixteen innocent civilians in Afghanistan?  And in another sphere, according to a report from the Pentagon didn't approx.  26,000 sex crimes take place in 2012 in the US military?   This is supposed to be one of the most sophisticated, superior, trustworthy militaries in the world?  

Assad's dictatorship is far worse than any group among the rebels and is committing far worse tragedies.   There isn't anyone we should consider too extreme to support in the fight against such a cruel dictatorship.  

These rebels at least deserve support for doing the dirty work of the war, something the US and other powers in the world have been too cowardly to take part in, and they are fighting a fight that is right, against a dictatorship.   We should be united with them on this front no matter how much they may be enemies on other "fronts".   No one is likely to become more of an enemy by supporting them and helping give them means to be part of something that is just, and be able to become a legitimate part of a better future for a country.  I would argue supporting their fight in general, regardless of who they are, is an opportunity to turn some hostilities away from certain groups among them and let them become part of a legitimate direction instead of an illegitimate one.
 
Balladeer
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87 posted 06-16-2013 11:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The rebels have declared they follow Al_Quada. There was a time Al-Quada was our enemy, I thought.



[This message has been edited by Balladeer (06-17-2013 07:24 AM).]

Essorant
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88 posted 06-18-2013 12:58 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Your sources of information are getting a bit bottom-of-the-barrelish, Balladeer.
Essorant
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89 posted 06-18-2013 11:29 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The black flag with the shahada on it in that picture is a general islamic flag of faith and unity in the face of a struggle (or "Jihad"), war, oppression, etc..  It isn't about affiliation to any specific political group, but about transcending divisions to be united in the struggle.  Some people modify it slightly, but the meaning remains the same.
      

"
Black Flag w white Sahadah is used offen for battles.

"
White Flag with black Sahadah is used for campaigns etc..

[ From http://www.chess.com/groups/forumview/islamic-flags  ]


People also use these flags much more generally/casually just as people do flags of their country, symbols of pride, decorations, etc.

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90 posted 06-18-2013 06:35 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ok, Ess, let's see if I can get nearer the top of the barrel...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/11/syria-al-qaeda-connection/2075323/



Why you went into such detail about the flag eludes me. I never claimed it was an Al-Qaeda flag or anything else. It is simply part of the picture.
Essorant
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91 posted 06-19-2013 05:00 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Balladeer,

If you know that it was Al Nusra that pledged an allegiance to an AlQaeda leader, why did you say the rebels (in general) had pledged allegiance, as if the rebels as a whole did?   There isn't anything about the people themselves in the picture in your post that suggested "AlQaeda", so I thought you were trying to say the flag represented AlQaeda.

I don't think the rebels can be blamed for mixing with groups like Al Nusra.  When the rest of the world won't fight with you when thousand and thousands of your people are being massacred, groups like Al Nusra are better than nothing.     Al Nusra are Syrians as well and have lived under the cruelty of Assad.  It doesn't matter how much we dislike them..  While the most powerful "good guys" in the world stay home and hear about the hell in the news, these people are among the people that are actually in it and offering their lives to help in the fight for freedom from Assad's dictatorship.   As much as we condemn their connection to AlQaeda, they are doing a better service for the Syrians than most of the rest of the world  
Balladeer
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92 posted 06-19-2013 09:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...and do you think they are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts or to gain control of the country? And if they do gain control, then what? Will Syria be in better hands with Al-Qaeda running it? Is Egypt in better shape with the Muslim brotherhood running it? Is the Middle East a better region with countries being run by these two groups?

I am certainly not for their current leader but, if there are to be rebels trying to overthrow him, I would hope they would do it without terror groups like Al-Qaeda backing them because you know as well as I that, if successful, Al-Qaeda will not relinquish the power. I don't feel that we should be joining in with Al-Qaeda. Those are just my thoughts. I don't have the answers and don't even know half of the questions.

We helped the muslim brotherhood take over Egypt. How's that working out...?
Essorant
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93 posted 06-21-2013 11:05 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
...and do you think they are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts or to gain control of the country?


I think every group involved sincerely wishes to free the Syrians from Assad.   Every group probably also wants to gain some control in the country.   How they sort out their differences for the long run is a difficult question.   But they can't answer that question when they are in the midst of a war where they are simply struggling to survive and when the path to any kind of new government is still prevented by a dictator.

quote:
Will Syria be in better hands with Al-Qaeda running it?


I don't think anything can be worse than its present condition.  But there isn't any likely chance of AlQaeda running a country.  AlQaeda determines that because its ideolgies and methods are so incompatable with anything that could establish and maintain a country.   Even if somehow it did succeed in establishing government, it wouldn't last very long before it were overthrown by the people under it and/or foreign forces who oppose it.   I would argue that if some of the members of AlQaeda involved in the war do eventually have an opportunity for positions of power they would be far more likely to reliquish attachments to AlQaeda - which are probably not very strong to begin with - because they indeed would rather be part of a legitimate power of a country, rather than try to hold a legitimate office and still try to be part of Alquaeda which would contradict legitimacy.  


quote:
We helped the muslim brotherhood take over Egypt. How's that working out...?


I believe Egypt is in a far better position with the Muslim Brotherhood and democracy than it was with Mubarak and dictatorship, but it hasn't been able to evolve and do enough for the overall conditions to be much better yet.   It needs a lot more time to become stablized and improve itself.   Most of the people in Egypt are Muslims and therefore want Islam to be the basis of policies and governing.  It has a long way to go to be an ideal muslim country, but it is on a much better direction than it was.

[This message has been edited by Essorant (06-22-2013 01:29 PM).]

Huan Yi
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94 posted 07-02-2013 07:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23139784
.
Balladeer
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95 posted 07-02-2013 07:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

IN light of current events, Ess, I'm guessing there are a few Egyptians who would disagree with you.
Essorant
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96 posted 07-10-2013 04:54 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The situation shows how far the country still is from democracy.  The protests in favour of Morsi prove that thousands and thousands still support his legitimacy and don't think he has been given enough time after only one year, especially when facing the kind of challenges of a country that still has remnants of a dictatorship and needs serious reformations in so many areas.  The military took sides and staged a coup to dictate the direction.  That is not democracy by direction of the president or the people.  That is a military dictatorship.
Essorant
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97 posted 07-10-2013 01:03 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

So much for the US not taking sides in Egypt: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/07/2013710113522489801.html

"Berkeley, United States - President Barack Obama recently stated the United States was not taking sides as Egypt's crisis came to a head with the military overthrow of the democratically elected president.

But a review of dozens of US federal government documents shows Washington has quietly funded senior Egyptian opposition figures who called for toppling of the country's now-deposed president Mohamed Morsi.

Documents obtained by the Investigative Reporting Program at UC Berkeley show the US channeled funding through a State Department programme to promote democracy in the Middle East region. This programme vigorously supported activists and politicians who have fomented unrest in Egypt, after autocratic president Hosni Mubarak was ousted in a popular uprising in February 2011.

The State Department's programme, dubbed by US officials as a "democracy assistance" initiative, is part of a wider Obama administration effort to try to stop the retreat of pro-Washington secularists, and to win back influence in Arab Spring countries that saw the rise of Islamists, who largely oppose US interests in the Middle East.

Activists bankrolled by the programme include an exiled Egyptian police officer who plotted the violent overthrow of the Morsi government, an anti-Islamist politician who advocated closing mosques and dragging preachers out by force, as well as a coterie of opposition politicians who pushed for the ouster of the country's first democratically elected leader, government documents show."


Huan Yi
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98 posted 07-31-2013 07:56 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There is so much
about that part of the world
we don't and can never understand
simply because we ourselves are not part
of that world . . .


.
 
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