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Syria

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Balladeer
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50 posted 02-04-2012 05:09 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Maybe someone could pass this on to the U.N.?

Grinch
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51 posted 02-04-2012 06:58 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


What would you like to see the UN do Mike? Do you think they should intervene militarily or impose sanctions?

.
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52 posted 02-04-2012 10:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Good question..

What I do know is that UN sanctions are a joke and toothless, as has been proven many times.

I also know that supposedly the UN was set up to protect countries and not allow genocide of citizens. The UN has stood by and watched genocide in many countries without doing a thing. The UN has proven time and time again that they are either powerless or refuse to use power to protect their members. They even put terrorist countries on the security council.

Obama is simply double talking..

"A Syria without Assad could be a Syria in which all Syrians are subject to the rule of law and where minorities are able to exercise their legitimate rights and uphold their identities and traditions while acting as fully enfranchised citizens in a unified republic," Obama said. "The United States and our international partners support the Syrian people in achieving their aspirations and will continue to assist the Syrian people toward that goal."

We support and assist the Syrian people? Tell that to the lady holding up the sign.

What would I do. I would give the al-Assad and ultimatum to stop the government violence and step down or be declared a war criminal to be shot on sight. I would take control of the air and supply arms to the resistance. Yes, if necessary I would send in troops. I would call a session of the UN, explain to the members that UN action is necessary and create a multi-national force, if needed. I would also send in hit squads....but I guess I'm just a war-monger. I do know that, if I were in a country ruled by a murderous dictator who was killing thousands of citizens weekly, I would hope that the UN or someone would do something more than sitting a few thousands miles away, declaring that "we are with you".

SOmething was done with Egypt. Something was done with Libya. What is it about Syria that no one will do anything?
Huan Yi
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53 posted 02-05-2012 12:08 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


The UN didn't free Libya . . .


.
Huan Yi
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54 posted 02-05-2012 12:12 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


The UN is where Russia and China
and the Arab Union on occasion
stop good things from happening.

.
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55 posted 02-05-2012 08:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BEIRUT/UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Western and Arab countries responded with outrage on Sunday after Russia and China vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution that would have urged Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to give up power. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said she was "disgusted" by the vote, which came a day after activists say Syrian forces bombarded the city of Homs, killing more than people in the worst night of bloodshed of the 11-month uprising. "Any further bloodshed that flows will be on their hands," ambassador Susan Rice said after the Russian-Chinese veto. .

Russia said the resolution was biased and would promote "regime change." Syria is Moscow's rare ally in the Middle East, home to a Russian naval base and a customer for its arms.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-china-veto-u-n-draft-backing-arab-004002028.html

Regime change???No kidding, Vladimir!
Grinch
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56 posted 02-05-2012 02:11 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I agree with regard to sanctions Mike, they tend to hurt the people of the country they're imposed against rather than dictators. There's an argument that if you make the people suffer enough they may rise up and depose the dictator but in the middle-east you're just as likely to ferment hate against those imposing the sanctions.

However I'm not convinced about your ideas with regard to military intervention.

For a start I'm not sure who the bad guys really are. The little girl in the picture looks cute but that doesn't mean her dad isn't part of an armed rebel minority intent on overthrowing a largely stable government to replace it with a less stable or more autocratic Muslim regime.

I'm with Russia and China on this one, this is an armed internal dispute in a sovereign country and the UN shouldn't get involved unless innocent civilians are purposely targeted.

.

[This message has been edited by Grinch (02-05-2012 03:26 PM).]

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57 posted 02-05-2012 06:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

unless innocent civilians are purposely targeted?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14414257  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14413680  
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle09.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2012/January/middleeast_January192.xml§ion=middleeast

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16138932

There are many other reports if these aren't enough.
Grinch
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58 posted 02-05-2012 07:57 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
There are many other reports if these aren't enough.


I've seen similar reports held up as evidence that the US were targeting Afghan civilians Mike, I discounted them, largely because they're hard to verify and are generally contradicted by the numbers killed. Armies tend to be extremely proficient when it comes to killing people, if the US army actively targeted unarmed civilians the number of dead would get really high, really quickly.

Since the uprising in Syria began the total number of Syrians killed on both sides is estimated to be around 7000, the Syrian army claims that insurgents have killed 2000 military personnel. That leaves roughly 5000 possible civilian deaths in 10 months. You'd need to take off the armed insurgents killed to get to the actual number of innocent civilians but even if the Syrian army hadn't managed to kill a single insurgent 5000 is still an extremely low number as far as genocides go.

If the Syrian army were really targeting civilians, I'd expect the civilian death toll to be up in the high hundreds of thousands yet the numbers are comparable with the civilian/insurgent deaths in Afghanistan.

.
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59 posted 02-05-2012 08:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Hey, fine with me, Grinch. If you want to look at the info and not think civilians are targeted because to count is too low, that's up to you.

Perhaps the count is low because they know that, if they kill hundreds of thousands, world reaction will be too intense to let them continue to get away with it....who can say? I didn't expect to change your way of thinking by presenting news reports and videos....been down that road too many times.
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60 posted 02-05-2012 10:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Residents of the city say snipers and tanks are firing on civilians and food and medicine are running low.

International criticism of Syria has been mounting since the UN Security Council adopted a statement on Wednesday condemning the government of President Assad for "widespread violations of human rights and the use of force against civilians".

He said artillery was firing at buildings and snipers were shooting at anyone they saw on the streets.

Another resident said "people are being slaughtered like sheep while walking in the street.
"I saw with my own eyes one young boy on a motorcycle who was carrying vegetables being run over by a tank," the man told Associated Press news agency.

Human rights activists have sent pictures of tanks and troops apparently sweeping into the city and targeting people.


Syrian troops on Thursday pursued an offensive in a region where activists reported the deadliest assault in a nine-month-old crackdown on unrest, as the vanguard of an Arab League team set to monitor compliance with a peace plan headed for Damascus.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said two people were killed in gunfire during a raid on a village by the army and security forces on Thursday, while soldiers backed by tanks and armored troop carriers swept into the town of Khan Sheikhoun. Various media sources are reporting updated numbers of between 15 - 30 civilians killed Thursday.

Two days earlier Syrian forces had killed 111 civilians and activists in the northwestern province of Idlib bordering Turkey, the British-based Observatory said, an attack that France condemned as an "unprecedented massacre".
Over 100 army deserters were killed or wounded, according to the Observatory.



One has to wonder why the UN Security Council adopted a statement  condemning the government of President Assad for "widespread violations of human rights and the use of force against civilians" if there were actually no violations?


Huan Yi
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61 posted 02-06-2012 01:34 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16902819


I think it started out with protesters and after Assad started killing them
some then turned into rebels having this urge to shoot back . . .

Was the kill rate in Libya higher before the West came to the rescue?

Does Assad have to exceed his fatherís body count?


.
Grinch
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62 posted 02-12-2012 09:40 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I think it started out with protesters and after Assad started killing them
some then turned into rebels having this urge to shoot back . . .


If you change that to say that some of the protesters joined the rebels, I'd agree 100%.

The armed rebels have always been there Huan - they're the same rebels Assad's father was fighting against - their ranks have been swelled by protesters who've picked up arms and joined them and external forces friendly to the rebel's cause. They could be called freedom fighters or terrorists depending on your point of view.

Assad believes that they're terrorists, the western media sees them as freedom fighters, the truth is probably somewhere between the two.

It'll be interesting to see if the West decides to join al-Qaeda to oppose Assad. The enemy of my enemy and all that.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57376121/al-qaeda-urges-muslims-to-help-syria-rebels/

quote:
Was the kill rate in Libya higher before the West came to the rescue?


No, it was actually lower, in Libya the death toll only started to rise sharply once the West got involved and there's no reason to believe that the same won't happen in Syria.

.
Essorant
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63 posted 02-12-2012 04:10 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Either way Assad is going to be following Qadhafi.  The only question is how long his grip can maintain such cruelty over the people and how many more mass murders his forces will be able to commit before he himself is murdered.  

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64 posted 02-14-2012 09:18 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Today's renewed assault comes one day after UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay warned that the UN Security Council's failure to take action has only strengthened Bashar al-Assad's forces.

"The failure of the Security Council to agree on firm collective action appears to have emboldened the Syrian government to plan an all out assault in an effort to crush resistance with overwhelming force… I am particularly appalled by the ongoing violence in Homs," Pillay told the UN General Assembly on Monday.

Pillay said that in addition to the tens of thousands reported missing and detained inside the country, the conflict has spilled over Syria's borders. The UN estimates that over 70,000 people have been internally displaced and at least 25,000 people have fled, seeking refuge in neighboring countries.

"The breadth and patterns of attacks by military and security forces on civilians, and the widespread destruction of homes, hospitals, schools and other civilian infrastructure indicate approval or complicity by authorities at the highest level," Pillay added.
God is great," screams the man filming. "Look at the explosions in Bab Amr, the city's houses are on fire."

That's some God you've got there, Bab..
Huan Yi
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65 posted 02-15-2012 12:00 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Either way Assad is going to be following Qadhafi.  The only question is how long his grip can maintain such cruelty over the people and how many more mass murders his forces will be able to commit before he himself is murdered."  


His father killed tens of thousands . . .


.


Huan Yi
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66 posted 08-02-2012 08:24 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


So why are they killing each other
being they all hate the Jew?
.
Huan Yi
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67 posted 05-16-2013 07:09 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/16/horrific-video-appears-to-show-syrian-rebel-executing-kneeling-assad-soldiers/

This more and more looks like
a rabid mad dog fight in which
there is no good side . . .


.
Essorant
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68 posted 05-17-2013 11:30 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The rebels aren't a uniform group and some have committed horrible atrocities.   But the worst and continous atrocities are from Assad and his regime.   One side's mercilessness soon turns into the other side's as well.  

The source of it is Assad because he was supposed to be the president, but is a cruel dictator instead.   None of the atrocities will end until he is out of the picture.
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69 posted 05-17-2013 11:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Agreed....but who goes in is the  question. Maybe the muslim brotherhood that we helped put in power in Egypt who are burning Christians at the stake? Or are you better off sometimes with the devil you know as opposed to the devil you don't?
Essorant
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70 posted 05-18-2013 11:45 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

Balladeer

Good to see you in the Alley again.  I was wondering where you were hiding             

quote:
Agreed....but who goes in is the  question


How can that question be relevent though until there is an actually chance for someone and something better to go in.  As long as a crual dictator and his regime is allowed to remain in, I don't think there is a chance for that.

quote:
Maybe the muslim brotherhood that we helped put in power in Egypt who are burning Christians at the stake?


The Muslim Brotherhood in general isn't "burning Christians at the stake".  I think a variety of people are involved in mistreatment and outbursts of violence.  Some may be some from the Muslim Brotherhood, some may not.   It is not right to try to paint everyone as being the same.   Morsi's government pledged to protect Christians and needs to work better at fulfilling this pledge and putting into action.   Certain minority groups in many countries have sufferred at the hands of a majority-group, especially under colonlialism and where Christianity predominated.  Knowing how long it took governments in other countries for certain minority groups and others to have better and equal protection under the law, some of whom are still struggling even now, how can you expect a a new government, a new democracy, still facing some remnants of a dictator's regime and which has not had the time to evolve and strengthen itself yet, to be free of these kind of problems - problems rhat it took decades, even centuries, to solve elsewhere - in only a couple of years?    

quote:
Or are you better off sometimes with the devil you know as opposed to the devil you don't?


I wouldn't say it is better, as it rules out any chance for anything better.  There is no chance to be free from a dictator and his regime as long as the dictator and the regime are there and they can keep the people oppressed.   You need to free yourself and be freed (helped) from oppression, if there is even going to be a chance to have any major change in how the country is governed.   There is a possibility that another dictator could come along, but that doesn't unjustify getting rid of the current dictator for his cruelty and atrocities and giving the people at least the chance for change and to have a better life.
 

[This message has been edited by Essorant (05-18-2013 12:26 PM).]

Balladeer
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71 posted 05-19-2013 01:00 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

We don't seem to have a very good track record in that regard, Ess....like Castro, for example.
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72 posted 05-19-2013 10:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This is not a bad article, I think, Ess, if you have time..
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/02/why_is_obama_in_bed_with_the_muslim_brotherhood.html
Balladeer
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73 posted 05-19-2013 10:51 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

As far as referring to individuals in the muslim brotherhood instead of the organization, I present this...

Obama Supporters Criticize Administration's Muslim Brotherhood Policy
by John Rossomando
IPT News
April 12, 2013

Discontent with the Obama administration's "abominable" policies toward Egypt among some of his leading supporters on Middle East issues took center stage Friday afternoon during a panel discussion sponsored by the Center for American Progress (CAP).

The program on "U.S. Engagement with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood" featured James Zogby, founder and president of the Arab-American Institute; John Esposito, head of the Prince Alaweed bin Talal Center for Christian-Muslim Understanding at Georgetown University; and Michael Hanna, senior fellow at the Century Foundation.

Each expressed concern with the Muslim Brotherhood's rejection of women's rights, hostility and violence toward Egypt's Coptic Christian population, and repression of dissent and "incompetence" since the party came to power last year. This criticism is noteworthy given that each speaker admitted having had high hopes for the Brotherhood a year or more ago.

Egyptian human rights abuses have been so grave that even Esposito, one of the Brotherhood's most redoubtable defenders in America, took issue with the Obama administration's Egypt policy.

"The answer here is obvious," Esposito said when asked about last Sunday's siege of the Coptic Church's holiest cathedral by Islamic extremists and Egyptian riot police that left two dead and over 80 injured. "The administration should be very strong in responding to that kind of incident because this is not an incident where we want to say that, 'Oh, we are not going to intervene in Egyptian politics,' where certain segments of the Egyptian population will say 'there goes the U.S. intervening.'" It should be met with very strong statements publicly, but also privately when talking about potential economic assistance."
Zogby suggested restructuring foreign aid to Egypt to be more sensitive to the facts on the ground rather than the United States locking itself an agreement that is difficult to change over the long-term. Such a change would give policy makers flexibility so aid to Egypt isn't handled in all-or-nothing terms.

"Our credibility has been compromised," Zogby said. "I think the way we handled the constitutional issue itself was abominable." U.S. officials made clear what a constitution should include, yet did not follow through when the document failed to protect women and minorities.

"I can't believe that we did nothing with regard to the communities in Egypt that were going to be affected by that constitution and express that we were displeased by the direction."

The Brotherhood's rejection of equal status for women and the Copts, as well as its repression of opposition, have damaged its image, Zogby said.
http://www.investigativeproject.org/3971/obama-supporters-criticize-administration-muslim
Essorant
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74 posted 05-21-2013 02:54 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

America is far from having a clean record, far from not having heaps of its own problems, from wars abroad, corruption in politics at home and some of the worst crime rates on the planet.  

How can Obama support such a monsterous entity?
 
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