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Bob K
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25 posted 06-14-2011 10:44 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, in reference to the genocide discussion, I think that you may have succeeded in getting the multiple homicide thrown out of court on getting the wording wrong in the Miranda Warning.

     According to the definition you picked, I don't think the word Genocide is appropriate.  I suspect that the word no long means quite so exactly what your definition covered, either, in the same way that an "enthusiast" today no longer means a highly eccentric religious fanatic, the way it did when Johnson first nailed it down in his dictionary.  
But then, the word didn't fit the murder of the Jews, either, during the second world way, by your definition.

quote:


genocide (ˈdʒɛnəʊˌsaɪd) — n the policy of deliberately killing a nationality or ethnic group [C20: from geno-, from Greek genos race + -cide ] geno'cidal

The deliberate destruction of an entire race or nation. The Holocaust conducted by the Nazis in Germany and the Rwandan genocide are examples of attempts at genocide.



     The Jews are a religion, and not a nationality; nor are they a race; nor are they an ethnic group.  Jews are characterized by having a common religion.  They have no common nationality, they have no common race, and they have no common ethnicity.

     Yet half the members of that religion were murdered.

     A substantial number of Iraqis died, directly and indirectly at the hands of the Americans.

     The fact that a large number died at the hands of somebody else is a very bad thing.  If you wish to call that a Genocide as well, gather your data and support it as well as you can and you may well make your case; but the case is separate.  If you are not and were not aware of a case of genocide against the United States in reference to Iraq, I have no explanation for that fact.  I supplied a reference for it in response to John not too many entries back, and both sides are there, pro and con, in repetitive offensive and defensive detail.

     You may not like the case, you may not be convinced by the case, but at this point you have been informed of it and have been directed to at least on huge trove of information that covers both sides on the issue.  Both sides are well worth looking at in some detail from my point of view.  At this point you know that the case is there.
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26 posted 06-14-2011 11:14 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Bob. I can pass your thoughts along to the dictionary editors but I doubt they will be interested. I also doubt you will find many people who do not consider the extermination of Jews or the slaughters in Rwanda as genocide. You may point out that Hitler's actions did not constitute genocide by the strict definition of the term but just make sure they don't have tattooed numbers on their arms.
Bob K
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27 posted 06-15-2011 08:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     That, Mike, is why the definition is absurd, and has been absurd for quite a while.

     I had loads of relatives who had that tattoo, and would qualify for one myself.  Half my extended family died.  My quarrel is with the definition, which manages to exclude Jews in the form you quoted it.

     Please try to find a definition that includes a better description of reality, next time around.

     I'm sorry that you see me as being blind here instead of the definition being incorrect.

     I'm also sorry that you didn't see fit to dignify my mention of the number of references to the Iraqi genocide in the google reference.  I am not attempting to get you to agree to the proposition that the United States perpetrated a genocide in Iraq, which I certainly believe to be true personally.  That is something which you can make up your own mind on, and doubtless will or already have.  I have no control over that.

     What I do have some control over is your statement that there was no American Genocide in Iraq is a matter of considerable discussion, and that whether or not you agree with the proposition, you should be aware that it is a matter of active debate.  The control I have is to inform you of that debate.

     How closely you choose to inform yourself is your business.  Given the way you have not responded to my invitations to discussions, I can only form my own conclusions and note that you are more interested in suggesting that I don't believe that the holocaust was a genocide, despite the loss of a considerable part of my family in that particular event.

     That doesn't fit the definition of genocide that you proposed.

     Don't blame me if your definition doesn't work to define what most folks think of as the main example of genocide in the 20th century.  Try to find one that does.
I'm the messenger, not the message.
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28 posted 06-15-2011 09:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Please try to find a definition that includes a better description of reality, next time around.


I guess it was foolish of me to use Mirriam Webster and American Heritage as the suppliers of the definitions. I personally don't find myself qualified enough to correct them, although I see you do.

My quarrel is with the definition, which manages to exclude Jews in the form you quoted it.

Interesting. You claim the definition excludes Jews and yet the definition uses the holocaust as an example of genocide.

I am not attempting to get you to agree to the proposition that the United States perpetrated a genocide in Iraq, which I certainly believe to be true personally.

Then you should have no problem stating the qualifications you use to form the assumption and definition of that genocide.

I can only form my own conclusions and note that you are more interested in suggesting that I don't believe that the holoccaust was a genocide, despite the loss of a considerable part of my family in that particular event.

That's one of examples of deductions you employ occasionally which just causes me to shake my head and say.... HUH? I'm suggesting you don't believe the holocaust was genocide?? Where in the world did that come from? I would assume you DO believe the holocaust was genocide, even though you point out that Jews do not fit into the categories stated in the definitions. As I said above, one of the definitions clearly uses the holocaust as an example. You take general statements made and regard them as a personal attack, which they are not. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by showing that the Jews did not fall into any categories used to define genocide...when I doubt that you, or anyone else, would view Hitler's actions as anything other than genocide. I would say your argument is with Webster, not me.

Ron
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29 posted 06-15-2011 11:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I'm also sorry that you didn't see fit to dignify my mention of the number of references to the Iraqi genocide in the google reference.

Your understanding of what those references mean, Bob, is seriously flawed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Google_searches_and_numbers#Why_a re_Google_results_not_valid.3F


Uncas
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30 posted 06-16-2011 01:43 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Then you should have no problem stating the qualifications you use to form the assumption and definition of that genocide.


Bob could use the definition and criteria you used earlier Mike, when referencing Syria:

quote:
Hmmmm...woudn't you consider a 1300 (and climbing) dead body count, tanks bearing down on civilians, soldiers stomping unarmed people to death, and mass exoduses of people to neighboring countries....couldn't that be called a high risk of genocide?


Personally I think it's a bad definition but if it's applicable to Syria it's equally applicable to Iraq.

.
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31 posted 06-16-2011 04:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, for starters, I'd never heard of American tanks bearing down on civilians or shooting at them. I hadn't heard of Amereican soldiers stomping unarmed civilians to death in the streets. I haven't heard of Iraqi civilians engaged in mass exoduses out of fear that Americans soldiers were coming to kill them. I also doubt that you can see a valid comparison  being made to American military actions in Iraq and the government's actions in Syria. Why you are trying to, I have no idea.
Bob K
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32 posted 06-16-2011 06:13 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Ron, your point is well taken, and would be better taken if you had checked out the list of possibilities yourself, not for items to be disposed of, but for items which might be of interest and value.  Thirty two million hits would be far to many to expect useful data on all or even a a great number of them.  Many would and — given my limited net experience — are likely to be duplications, and hare-brained comments.

     So?

     Do I need to tell you not to accept candy from strangers?

     That doesn't mean that you shouldn't check out information from sources listed on Google.  If there are a lot of sources, it suggests that you might have to go through some extra time vetting.  Nor does it suggest that that you look at the sources uncritically.

     In fact, what I said was

quote:

I'm also sorry that you didn't see fit to dignify my mention of the number of references to the Iraqi genocide in the google reference.  I am not attempting to get you to agree to the proposition that the United States perpetrated a genocide in Iraq, which I certainly believe to be true personally.  That is something which you can make up your own mind on, and doubtless will or already have.  I have no control over that.

     What I do have some control over is your statement that there was no American Genocide in Iraq is a matter of considerable discussion, and that whether or not you agree with the proposition, you should be aware that it is a matter of active debate.  The control I have is to inform you of that debate.



     The point of my comment, and the reason I raised the number of mentions of the American Genocide in Iraq was not to insist that it was irrefutable and immutable reality — though that is my opinion, I doubt it is a proposition I could prove to somebody who does not wish to even acknowledge the reality of a widespread  discussion of such a thing — but to point out that there were a significant number of people who felt such a thing existed.

     Agreement is too much for me to ask; though I can always put it on my wish list, I'm not holding my breath.  Acknowledgement that such a discussion exists, yeah, I think evidence exists out there that the discussion is real.  Folks on the right may not like it, and there is no reason they should have to; nor is there reason for them to agree with my assessment of the validity of that position.  People don't have to go along with my opinion about that.

     But a simple examination of the Google list will turn up enough articles to show the actual existence of the debate itself.

     "American Genocide in Iraq" has some content differences from "if."  And I was interested in running a quick and dirty search, not going after scholarly articles.
Ron
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33 posted 06-16-2011 06:58 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Do I need to tell you not to accept candy from strangers?

Only if you insist on offering us candy, Bob.  

quote:
The point of my comment, and the reason I raised the number of mentions of the American Genocide in Iraq was not to insist that it was irrefutable and immutable reality — though that is my opinion, I doubt it is a proposition I could prove to somebody who does not wish to even acknowledge the reality of a widespread  discussion of such a thing — but to point out that there were a significant number of people who felt such a thing existed.

And the point of my comment, Bob, was to suggest the evidence you offered is frivolous. That is NOT to necessarily slight your argument, which I wasn't addressing, just the meaninglessness of your evidence.

You apparently drew the conclusion and argued that "32 million items" returned in a Google search indicated "a serious discussion about a problem in which folks have shown a substantive interest." In reality, Bob, all it probably indicates is there are approximately 32 million web pages out there that include ANY of the words you used in your search term. A search engine ranks its results for relevance for a reason; most of the results it returns after the first hundred pages are decidedly IRrelevant.

This search might be closer to what you thought you were getting?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22American+Genocide+in+Iraq%22

FWIW, you should know that by your own logic there are considerably more people showing "a substantive interest" in fake moon landings than in American genocide in Iraq. You can take that for what it's worth, Bob, because my evidence is no less meaningless than yours.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22fake+moon+landings%22


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34 posted 06-16-2011 11:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

hmmm....from 32 million to 4190....quite a drop. Take out the muslim sites showing bias and prejudice on everything American and even that figure drops significantly....of course you will still have the Huffington Post.
Bob K
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35 posted 06-16-2011 11:16 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Ron, I appreciate your  attempt to educate me in the sophisticated methods of data collection you point out.  I see that it provides a shorter list of articles to look through.    

     But I think it missed, for example, this article, which not only has interesting things to say on its own, but also has an interesting list of secondary sources that are worth following up for their own sakes.   Some of these articles may be familiar to you from prior research and general reading in the area.  I will list them after I give the main reference.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23760.html

135. Nancy Youssef, "U.S. attacks, not insurgents, blamed for most Iraqi deaths,” Miami Herald, September 25 2004. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0925- 02.htm
136. Les Roberts et al., "Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey,” The Lancet, Vol 364, November 20 2004.
137. Owen Bennett-Jones, "Iraq deaths survey was robust,” BBC World Service, March 26 2007. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6495753.stm
138. Nicolas J. S. Davies, "Burying the Lancet report,” Z Magazine, February 2006.
139. http://www.iq.undp.org/ilcs.htm
140. "BBC obtains Iraq casualty figures,” BBC News, January 28 2005. Original report at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7906.htm
141. "Iraqi civilian casualties,” United Press International, July 12 2005. http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrorism/Analysis/2005/07/12/iraqi_civilian_casualties/ 2280/
142. Gilbert Burnham et al., "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a crosssectional cluster sample survey,” The Lancet, October 11 2006.
143. Iraq Family Health Survey Study Group, "Violence-related mortality in Iraq from 2002 to 2006,” New England Journal of Medicine, Vol 358: 484-493, January 31 2008.
144. http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=88
     While there are considerably more people interested in  your edited version of Fake MOON LANDINGS (48,000) than in your edited version of “U.S. Genocide in Iraq” (about 10,500), the straight out unedited statement versions of these two questions are considerably different.   (28 Million for  U.S. Genocide in Iraq is what I get this time as against 185 thousand on the fake moon landings.)

     Does this mean anything?

     Darn if I know.  But I find that I’ve had a more difficult time getting at some of the more interesting and better researched data IN THIS CASE by doing it your way.  I’ll need to have to try it out a lot more to find out  what sort of data gets sorted out by refining my search the way you suggest.  It might prove to be very useful and productive in another sort of search.  

     Perhaps if you have a search that is far longer than a hundred pages, your method might do a better job for sorting out data at the right level of abstraction, while a search that is far shorter might not work as well, or vice versa.  My mathematical reasoning is not very good, so I couldn’t tell you.  Perhaps it’s better for me to look at more of this sort of raw data?  Though raw statistical data wouldn’t be very helpful at all.
Ron
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36 posted 06-17-2011 11:29 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

An exact phrase search is rarely a good way to find information, Bob, at least not by itself. I just used it to demonstrate the very different results available with just a simple change in your query. Your query resulted in millions of results that weren't relevant. Mine resulted in far fewer results that were highly relevant -- but no doubt missed some that were equally relevant.

My point remains the same: The number of results returned by a search engine is utterly meaningless data.

FYI, here's a quick little Cheat Sheet for getting the most out of Google:

http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?answer=35890
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37 posted 06-17-2011 05:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BEIRUT – Syrian security forces killed at least 16 people Friday, including a teenage boy, as thousands of people poured into the streets across the country calling for the downfall of President Bashar Assad's autocratic regime, activists said.

Since the protests erupted in mid-March, Assad has unleashed the military to crush street demonstrations. Human rights activists say more than 1,400 Syrians have been killed and 10,000 detained

"What is our guilt? We just demanded freedom and democracy nothing else," said Mohamed, who spoke to The Associated Press from a refugee camp in neighboring Turkey and asked to be identified only by his first name. He and other refugees offered fresh accounts of summary executions to suppress the pro-democracy movement.
"I saw people who were beheaded with machine-gun fire from helicopters," and a man tortured to death when security forces "poured acid on to his body," he said.
Mohamed fled with his family as the military besieged Jisr al-Shughour, a rebellious town the government recaptured last Sunday.
He said a sugar factory in the city was turned into a jail where they "hold quick trials and execute anyone who they believe participated in protests."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_syria


That relates to AMerican actions in Iraq....how?

Bob K
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38 posted 06-18-2011 05:11 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thank you, Ron, I see what you mean.
Bob K
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39 posted 06-18-2011 05:34 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I would believe that the quotation you offer here, Mike, is something that seems to be more of a reason that some folks might find to get involved in Syria.

     I would remind you, however, that the same problems which generated you outrage against our involvement in Libya apply in Syria as well.  Your outrage against Libya is as yet undiminished, and you remain as clear in your protest that there are many many countries that certainly deserve American intervention on humanitarian grounds and yet do not get it.  You remain clear that all of them cannot be given American aid, and should not get it.

     If the aid is funneled through the U.N., which you appear to dislike, bypassing the Congress here, how does that help?   It would still seem illegal.  You would still condemn the action, wouldn't you?

     I would, for going around the constitution, the same reason that I find myself being against the intervention in Libya.  What's the deal, here?

     Do you see any congressional groundswell of support for a declaration of war against Syria?  Or a demand that we intervene supported by an appropriate majority?  I hear a deafening silence from pretty much everybody, including the Republicans, in this matter.  

    
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40 posted 06-18-2011 05:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Going around the constitution has become the norm for the past two years, Bob.

I don't believe we should be  a driving force in getting involved in Syria any more than we should be in Libya. I don't know how a president could involve us in Libya WITHOUT involving us in Syria. In short, I cannot follow his reasoning here at all. It all seems very poorly orchestrated, in my opinion.
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41 posted 06-21-2011 04:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Well, Mike, involvement in Libya was probably not a great idea without congressional approval.  Economically speaking, maybe not even with congressional approval; though at least the President sought to put some limitations on the depth of the involvement, I find little comfort in that.  Nor am I comforted by the invitation of the Arab League for us to go into Libya.  They may not have invited us into Syria, and that may constitute a difference, but I find little joy in it.  I'm not certain I would wish to have them at my back as friends.  I'd be very nervous about where they'd place their knives.

     Suggesting that the depredations on the constitution have been only going on over the past two years is simply incorrect, though, Mike.  Warrantless wiretaps have been going on for a very long time, to offer a single example.  The fact that President Obama has not gotten rid of the regulations that seem to allow torture over the past two years doesn't mean that the regulations weren't in place before that time.  The retreat from the Posse Comitas goes back further than two years.

     I mentioned to you several years back that some of the regulations that you found benign or even congenial during a Republican administration would only appear that way to you because of the apparent political advantages granted the party in power.  I said that when the party changed, you would probably find some of these measures oppressive.  I find them almost as distasteful now as I did then because nothing has been done to roll back the attacks on civil liberties.

     Not simply a matter of the last two years at all.  If they  were that shallow, the disjunctions would be simpler to mend.
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42 posted 01-10-2012 06:37 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


It's been going on in Syria since March. . .
What's the difference from Libya
beyond Iran?
.
Bob K
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43 posted 01-11-2012 02:53 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:


It's been going on in Syria since March. . .
What's the difference from Libya
beyond Iran?
.



     I understand, "It's been going on in Syria since March. . ." to mean that the civil disturbances in Syria have been going on since at least March.  I understand and follow you that far.

     I don't understand, "What's the difference from Libya
beyond Iran?"  I would like to and I feel a little embarrassed to be asking; but if I don't ask, I won't be able talk with you about it, and I would like to.

     I believe the question may have something to do with The President's actions in Libya in supporting the revolution there and in aiding NATO activities.  While Mr. Gingrich initially criticized the President for not acting in that conflict, Mr. Gingrich changed his position and criticized the President for acting.  I was against the President's actions, myself, because he had not gotten direct congressional approval.  Grinch pointed out that in acting in support of already existing treaty alliances, ratified as they were by congress, the question was rendered moot.  I felt that this was a telling point then and still do, but overall felt that the President should have gotten approval from congress.

     Perhaps I am belaboring a point here.

     This would be a reasonable response on my part to you if you were talking about the difference "between" Libya and something else — perhaps "Iran."  But the use of the preposition "beyond" in this case renders my interpretation nonsense.  The relationship between Libya and Iran in this case is utterly mysterious and requires some sort of clarification.  You've generally got some interesting take on this sort of stuff, John, and I'd like to see where you're headed.

Huan Yi
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44 posted 01-11-2012 03:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/07/syria-is-much-stronger-than-libya/
.
Bob K
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45 posted 01-11-2012 05:14 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

     Thanks for that illuminating article.  It sounds as though there would need to be some really pressing need to get involved in Syria to go anywhere near the place, doesn't it?

     I'd have to say that this seems to me to be a really really go reason to put some money into alternative fuels and trying to come to some sort of understanding of what the various folks in the middle east actually want and how we can help them start talking to each other rather than blowing each other's heads off in such a zestful and enthusiastic fashion.

     If we limit ourselves to seeing things in a military way, we'll have boxed ourselves into a very expensive corner.

     There will bve trouble enough with scarce resources around land and water soon enough, and we need to start planning on how to cope with the clashes that should start emerging along those lines in the next 10-15 years or so by investing in desalinization and waste management and reclamation and aquaculture science.  If we can stay ahead of that curve we may be able to sidestep major srmed conflict, including nuclear conflict in the area, given the increasing population pressures from the very heavyily weighted youth population.  We need to get away from oil in the area to remove that as a source of conflict as well.

      A few thoughts, anyway.

     What about yours or other people?

     If we get caught up in wars there, we'll be in a very large very deep pile of odoriferous substance that sounds like that golden finny thingy —  you kmow — Carp.

          Oh pshaw!  I amuse myself.  I blush.
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46 posted 02-03-2012 06:24 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


The UN is useless . . .


.
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47 posted 02-03-2012 10:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You had doubts, John...?
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48 posted 02-04-2012 12:51 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

The Libyans might disagree.  I don't think it was useless in helping free Libya from Qadhafi.

The question is how can it help Syria.  Is there as uniform a movement to get rid of Assad?  It doesn't appear so.  

 
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49 posted 02-04-2012 03:30 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, and hundreds are dying every day. It's nothing new to see the U.N. doing nothing as genocide or mass murder prevails.
 
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