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Balladeer
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50 posted 04-11-2011 10:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You want me to believe that it's incredible that there are people in this country that don't pay Income taxes?

You find that impossible to believe.  


I always find it amazing, Bob, that you can take sentences and convert them into something completely different that what they represent. Please point out where I believe I find it incredible that there are people who don't pay income taxes. After you do that, please point out where I state I find that impossible to believe. Otherwise, perhaps you can apologize for creating such a misrepresentation of my words.

Huan Yi
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51 posted 04-11-2011 11:04 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


George Will noted some time ago
that the US is reaching a point
where more people will be paying
no federal income taxes than are
which then creates a population
with no vested interest in how
the federal government spends money.


.
Balladeer
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52 posted 04-11-2011 11:42 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


     Money you make tends to go more directly back into the economy than the money that Donald Trump makes


Bob, I'm afraid that is bias talking over reason. Check out the Trump empire and it's holdings. Count up the employees, in the hotels, casinos, construction companies, golf course construction, television programs....let me know when you get into the thousands. Then count up the companies that benefit by dealing with those companies in a secondary manner, such as supplying and servicing them. Hitting the tens of thousands yet? You speak of people like Trump as though they are Scrooge McDuck, hoarding their little gold pieces in chests they bury in the back yard or something. You couldn't be more off-base. I'm thinking perhaps it's because he is a conservative? There a whole lot of liberal ultra-rich McDucks out there that I've never seen you mention at all, like the Kennedys and the Kerrys, for example. Why is that? How many people does Kerry employ, or Pelosi with her millions? How many does Gore give jobs to? If you want to complain about ultra-rich that sit on their money and keep it out of circulation, THERE would be a good place to start, not with someone like Trump, who has tens of thousands of people taking home a paycheck thanks to him. My only deduction from your post is that it is all politically motivated. I can't see it any other way. You chant the standard democratic "tax breaks for the rich" mantra and point out conservatives to target with it. In other words, I see little fair and balanced
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53 posted 04-12-2011 01:03 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Certainly, Michael.  I read your text and as a speaker of english I am aware of the preferential meaning of the word "incredible."

     in·cred·i·ble adj \(ˌ in-ˈkre-də-bəl\
Definition of INCREDIBLE

1
: too extraordinary and improbable to be believed
  

     Quite literally, you do not credit it.
Bob K
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54 posted 04-12-2011 01:25 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

          Money you make tends to go more directly back into the economy than the money that Donald Trump makes



     Sorry, Mike, I still stand by that.

     Those examples aren't examples of money Donald Trump makes, Mike.  Those are examples of money Donald Trump owes, before his bottom line.  Those are his costs of doing business.  If he's a good businessman, he has other people pay those, and one set of debts covers the other.  The money Donald Trump makes is the money that's left over afterward, the money available for investment.  That may go into the sort of hiring you speak about, but probably not in this sort of economy in this country.  If you'll notice, the sort of investments youi're talking about simply aren't happening on the street.  While the employment has emproved for working stiff in some places a hair, it has not improved very much at all for them overall.  

     If your theory were correct, we'd be rolling in dough, wouldn't we?

     The overall economy is improving a great deal for those at the very upper end because it's going into oil and into longer term stuff that simply doesn't pay off for the folks that you claim it does pay off for.  Otherwise, the smaller economies would be going great guns and they're not.

     The money you make doesn't go back into high fallutin investments, defense spending, oil and the like.  You and I pump money directly into the economy in terms of grocery stores, gas stations and so on.  And so do those folks on food stamps and welfare, but for them it's even more direct.

     I have no preference for Democratic investors over Republican investors.  I think tax rebates should be  cut for all of them and most of the tax loopholes should be closed for them as well, Democratic and Republican and Independents as well.  If we're going to cut spending, we need to make a point of stopping this other massive haemmorage of revenues as well.  
Balladeer
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55 posted 04-12-2011 07:50 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Those examples aren't examples of money Donald Trump makes, Mike.

You have finally gotten me to use the word "incredible", Bob. I will use it to describe both of your last two replies and we can leave it at that. I am neither dazzled or baffled....and I didn't expect the apology, anyway  

btw, as long as English lessons are in order, the adjective applies to the following noun, so when one says, for example, "incredible percentage of people, incredible refers to percentage, not people. Just a tip....
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56 posted 04-12-2011 06:35 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Look beyond the preferred definition for those uses, Mike, for secondary, tertiary and quaternary meanings.
Ringo
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57 posted 04-16-2011 05:51 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
You want me to believe that it's incredible that there are people in this country that don't pay Income taxes?

Actually, there is a part of the tax code that I would LOVE to drop into the bottom of the Dead Sea and pray for it to never resurface:
The people who do not pay ANY taxes, and yet somehow seem to get a tax refund.

I have a friend who is dating a welfare mother (no challenges with wither her being on welfare, or him dating her... that is not the issue here), who has the Commonwealth pay her her housing, her food, her health care, her light bill, and almost anything else she needs. She has a combined income (outside oif her monthly cash check) of exactly ZERO... She just got her refund check in the mail last week, and they went out for dinner, with her paying the ticket instead of him, for once.

I have another friend who- under treaty from the government- pays no federal taxes on ANYTHING. She is a member of the Iroquoi nation and has a non-tax id number that allows her to make purchases without paying tax, and to earn income without paying federal taxes on it... and, yet she also gets a refund check. (No, I don't have an issue with the government finally keeping their agreements... keep on track, here)

Now, I find it hard to believe that these are the only two people across this great nation who have figured out that they get money from the government without having to feed the good that laid the Golden Egg.  Do I believe that stopping these people from getting a refund of taxes they don't pay is going to solve the deficit? No. Do I believe that spending cuts that equal less than 1% of spending is going to fix the budget? No. Do I believe that defunding Planned Parenthood is going to put our nation back into the black? No.

Do I believe that everything that is being proposed could help... yes. If I shoot a deer, it doese very little to drop the deer population in my area.... if myself and all of my bambie blasting friends shoot 15 or 20 deer a season, is that going to dwindle the numbers? Most assuredly.

What our politicians need to do is to stop fighting, stop lying, stop agrandizing, stop politicizing, and give back their free gyms and free meals, and free posting priveledges for personal items, and give back their free cars, and their ability to travel to foreign countries on the American dime to do their shopping, and then take a cold hard look at the choices they have before them, and stop worrying about keeping their jobs and doing what is right. Until all of these self-righteous public dis-servants are willing to lose their jobs, they will never get anything done.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Balladeer
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58 posted 04-16-2011 06:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What??? You want Obama, Michelle and family to stop taking vacations, along with 60-100 people, booking entire hotels, using multiple planes...on our dime? Get serious.....


Ringo, I couldn't agree with you more!
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59 posted 04-18-2011 04:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




quote:

I have a friend who is dating a welfare mother (no challenges with wither her being on welfare, or him dating her... that is not the issue here), who has the Commonwealth pay her her housing, her food, her health care, her light bill, and almost anything else she needs. She has a combined income (outside of her monthly cash check) of exactly ZERO... She just got her refund check in the mail last week, and they went out for dinner, with her paying the ticket instead of him, for once.



      If you have no problem with her being on welfare, I am uncertain what your actual problem here is, Ringo.  Do you believe that she's living high off the hog, or something?  Would you feel better if they actually paid her another ten bucks a week?  I figure this way, once a year she can feel like she gives her boyfriend something special back without threatening her kids' survival completely, but who knows?

     You already said you understood about the Indians, didn't you?

     So if you really understand about the Indians, what the actual problem there?

     In England, the guys who originally owned London still own most of it, and all the houses and buildings are on long term lease for a hundred or a hundred and fifty years.  If the Indians had done it right, that's what they should have done, you know, and you'd be somebody's tenant until your lease ran out and you'd have to renegotiate it.  

     We're lucky that all we've got to fork over is a little bit of tax relief, and that they don't have a chip on their shoulders about the folks with no lineage who've only been over here three or four hundred hundred years or so.

     Probably a cheeky football yob, anyway.
Ron
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60 posted 04-18-2011 08:03 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Actually, there is a part of the tax code that I would LOVE to drop into the bottom of the Dead Sea and pray for it to never resurface: The people who do not pay ANY taxes, and yet somehow seem to get a tax refund.

It's not a tax refund, Ringo. It's a tax credit. It's not greatly different from sending people a stimulus check, though the rationale for tax credits is much more varied. You'd have to know the specific tax credit they collected to determine whether you felt it was justfied (assuming you can be convinced that ANY tax credit is ever justifiable).

Here's a few links for a few types of tax credits and the motivation behind them:

http://schools.dor.org/registration.cfm?subpage=46

http://www.columbiabusinesstimes.com/9112/2010/09/17/tax-c redits-tied-to-productivity-can-solve-information-problem/


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61 posted 04-19-2011 07:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I bow to superior understanding of the tax code, Ron.  I didn't recognize it as a tax credit.  My apologies, Ringo.
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62 posted 04-19-2011 08:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Some things really light my fire...ok, MANY things do!

I think the chant about tax breaks for the rich is bogus. I think raising taxes on the rich is bogus. Yes, I know it is a favorite rallying cry for the left but it makes no sense at all to me. First, doubling the tax rate on the rich wouldn't solve any problem. Second, if you want to level the playing field, you don't need to raise their taxes, you just need to eliminate the loopholes.

Yesterday I saw the cover of Barron's Business magazine. What did it say in big, bold letters?? HOW TO PAY NO INCOME TAXES!...and then under, "learn how to avoid paying taxes like the rich."

Isn't this an ironic situation? The adminisitration is encouraging everyone to pay their fair share of taxes, our national fiscal status is obvious to everyone, and one of our leading business magazines is encouraging people how to get out of paying taxes.

Taxes don't need to be raised. Loopholes need to be closed. Avenues open only to the rich, or people who have enough money to employ them, need to be shut down. That would raise a lot more money than raising taxes, which would simply be negated by their use of loopholes.

You all know that I am a champion of the rich, those who provide jobs to others. But I'm not a champion of those who will use manipulations to get out of paying taxes others pay. Yes, Ron would say it's their American right to do so and so it is.....so eliminate them.

What's wrong with that thought process?
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63 posted 04-20-2011 02:09 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I would say that both need to be done in a targeted fashion.  Do you, for example, wish to eliminate deductions for charity?

  
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64 posted 04-20-2011 08:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Bob, I don't however there are ways, I know, to move money around and  several sophisticated manipulations which somehow shield money from being taxed. There are also ways to declare bankruptcy and keep everything.

Not having been in the economical stratosphere, I don't know a lot about them. I just say that advocating finding ways to not pay taxes while the country is in need of tax dollars sticks in my craw in a bad way.

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65 posted 04-20-2011 10:24 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Got to say it sticks in mine as well.

     You're right about eliminating the loopholes.  Oil depletion allowances, farm subsidies for, say, tobacco, and for not growing some crops and the like seem to me to be good candidates to go, off the top of my head  One of my thoughts that would never get through, of course, is to legalize and tax marijuana at fair prices.  It'd cut crime at the same time as probably empty out some of the prisons of potentially non-violent offenders, at least a few of them, and fund treatment some of the federal bucks for treatment of addictions that we now have to get from other places, and ,quite possibly, add some decent amount to the general coffers.

     Ron is probably right about it being okay to take advantage of the breaks that the laws provide.  It might be a good idea to simply get a good idea of exactly what the law does provide people, however, wouldn't it?  Then, maybe, we could see which laws were designer laws written especially for single people or for single groups, and we might be able to make some intelligent decisions about how good an idea it would be for the country to continue that designer tax breaks.

     I'm curious if there is a list of what those tax breaks are someplace?

     I wouldn't even have to know which party sponsored them, at this point; I'm sure there are plenty to go around for almost everybody, just so long as we could whittle that list down.

     Call me foolishly optimistic.

[This message has been edited by Bob K (04-21-2011 01:06 AM).]

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66 posted 04-21-2011 08:34 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Ron- I say Rome, you say Gala.... in the end we're both talking about apples. I understand the rationale behind the tax credits: I have been known to benefit from a few myself... What I am talking about, here, is the fact that these people in specific (the ones I used as an example) pay no taxes to begin with... zero, goose egg, zilch, etc... and, yet, we end up giving them the benefit of a tax credit for something they don't pay.

Around my part of the world, homeowners are the ones who must pony up for the school taxes. My friend doesn't own a house, she lives in subsidized housing (which taxpayers pay twice the average local rent for; however, that is a separate issue). Her kids go to public school. She pays no education expenses other than pencils and paper. She doesn't pay income taxes as she has no income other than what the state pays her, and child support (the little her ex gives her). This woman's total tax burden is zero, and yet, she receives a check come tax time.

The descendant of the Iroquois nation has, by treaty, a zero tax liability... she has some document number that allows her to forgo the entire process of income taxes. He earns her living for herself and her family. No challenges with that. Her ancestors allowed her to have the benefit of not paying taxes (the wording is off, but stick with me, here), and I have no hassle with that. The hassle I have, again, is that she- with not a single dollar paid into the system- is getting money out of the system.

Bob- My challenges are listed above. I have no hassles if anyone uses the legal means (tax credits, etc) to get back money that they put in... as long as they put it.
Ok... let me try it this way:
The money we get back from our taxes is the government re-paying us money that we gave them in excess of what they asked us to give them. In essence, the overage is a loan to the government that they are paying back. They are giving us back money we put into the system.
The examples I listed- and the many others across this country who do the same- are getting repaid the loan they never made. They never put a dime into the system, and yet the system is handing them the cash back.

As for the Indians.... it is not fair to them to suggest that they should have done things differently when they were playing our game with our rules and no one to explain either.

(a quick aside- the welfare mother I listed above is graduating from the local community college this May, and should be able to get on her feet by the end of Summer. I would like to publicly- if virtually- shake her hand for a job well done).

As for the loopholes.... the more I read into the tax code and have it explained to me, the more I think Steve Forbes was right and a flat tax should be instituted. 15% of your income, single amount family deduction, go home. People who are single, with no dependents, and no deductions can do their taxes on a single sheet of paper... perhaps the rest of us could as well.

Another avenue is the bogus "subsidies" that we are giving people/companies. Notice, I said BOGUS subsidies... I am not including payments to the farmers who are getting $30/acre for soybeans and have 1000 acres (hence, netting $30,000 before having to pay for seed and fertilizer and farm equipment and family bills and...). I am talking about the oil companies who are only making a 2% profit (to the tunes of billions of dollars) and are getting help from the government. (No, I am not for a windfall tax... I give them enough cash, I do not wish to give them cash outside of my normal daily stop at the pump.) I am talking about not permitting the unions to have an exemption for the Cadillac Insurance Plan tax because they helped get the chief cook and bottle washer elected. (notice, I did NOT say I am against the unions themselves). I am talking about the politicians who get a new car every couple of years that the tax payers buy for them. I am talking about the 11 or 12 housing programs that don't work and yet are still being funded. I am talking about de-funding profit generating companies who still get money from the government.... and there are too many more to gripe about here.

There are places to make legitimate cuts (and not just lowering the increase and calling it a cut) to help, and no one seems to be truly interested. If any one of those over-paid bellhops were to truly care about doing their job, and not keeping the power they have so artfully stolen from their constituents, then this mess would be over.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

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67 posted 04-21-2011 09:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Gotta like a man who knows his apples
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68 posted 04-21-2011 12:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron- I say Rome, you say Gala.... in the end we're both talking about apples.

Actually, Ringo, I don't think we are.

You're tying tax credits to tax refunds because they both include the word "tax" and both are handled by the IRS. Would you get similarly upset if someone had to pay a tax fine that greatly exceeded their income? And before anyone snickers, it's exactly the same thing; i.e., linking a tax something-something to income.

Neither tax credits nor tax fines are directly linked to income, and neither has anything at all to do with refunds. Credits, fines, and refunds all serve very different purposes.

Besides, Ringo, tax credits are a drop in the national bucket. How many people in this country have drawn and continue to draw more from the social security pool than they contributed?

Rome and Gala aside, Ringo, nomenclature still matters. For example, tax loopholes are often much better understood when you start calling them tax incentives.

The government can't pass a law forcing all citizens to contribute to charity (though they're not above taxing us and giving THAT to charity). So, rather than force citizens, they allow charitable deductions in hopes of encouraging our generosity (sic). Virtually every loophole on the books started out as an incentive.

The most egregious incentives, at least for most people, were originally put into place to motivate businesses to do something the politicians felt would be good for the country. This is usually more apparent at the state level than at the Federal level. Why? Because every state is trying to attract new business at the expense of every other state. The competition between states is horrendous and getting more so every year. The Feds are competing, too -- against Mexico and Canada and Europe, to name a few -- they just haven't been smart enough yet to realize it. Until they do, we'll continue to lose jobs that move out of the United States.

Mike says he doesn't want to eliminate deductions for charity. We all pretty much have something we don't want to eliminate. Tax incentives aren't going to go away and we're never going to find unanimity on which ones we should keep and which should be eliminated. Each, I think, has to be beaten half to death individually. That conversation is never going to get started, however, until we all start speaking the same language. Tax incentives, unlike loopholes, have a purpose. When we recognize them as incentives, we can objectively examine those purposes and find common ground for discussion.

Rome and Gala aside, nomenclature still matters.


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69 posted 04-21-2011 06:21 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I have no trouble with tax incentives....it's the loopholes where I do....although, distinguishing between the two can be a little trying

Non-tax incentives are also good, like not raising corporate taxes to drive companies away or not piling higher taxes on the people who hire the work forces.
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70 posted 04-21-2011 08:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


     Actually, Ringo, this woman's tax burden is not zero.  

     Even if her income tax burden is zero — which it may or may not be, you might try asking her about that — She still has to pay the same taxes as everybody else has to pay on most items she buys, such as gasoline, for example, clothing for school or work for herself or her children, and whatever the local food may or may not be on food and so on.  These are regressive taxes, and will hit her more solidly than they will hit those of us who are fortunate enough to have dough coming in in more dependable amounts.

[Edited Discuss the post, Bob, not the poster. - Ron

... the subsidy of the landlords whose twice market level rents you are paying for, a redistribution upward, not a bad business to be in, by the way, and one that contributed to the housing bubble in a very large way a few years back.  Banks gained, speculators gained and the folks who lived in scarcely rehabbed housing got blamed.  I had friends who were in it in Boston.

     It was a business, by the way, where the banks did most of the gaining, because the entrepreneurs were pretty heavily leveraged, and if any one deal fell through, the whole house of cards tended to fall through pretty quickly.

     A lot of those junk loans got bundled up and sold and were over-valued.  People took serious baths on buying up those loan-bonds.  Scam-O-Rama.

     The money went from your pockets to the pockets of various banks and lenders, and at no point did they actually stop in the pockets of the poor long enough to do other than maintain them in poverty.  They stopped in the pockets of the wealthy.

     Now it's better for the poor than if nothing whatsoever is done, but it doesn't actually address the problems of poverty in the same way as actually investing in housing or education for them does, or offering a path to home ownership does.  Hey.

[This message has been edited by Ron (04-21-2011 09:43 PM).]

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71 posted 04-22-2011 08:18 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Consumption taxes aren't regressive, Bob, whereby the poor pay the same as those who have more money to spend on consumer goods. The more you buy, the more you pay. The less you buy, the less you pay.
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72 posted 04-22-2011 02:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Dear Denise:

         http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regressivetax.asp
FYI.  Sorry, though.  They are.
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73 posted 04-22-2011 03:28 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Check out the resources at this site, Bob.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=action_contribute
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74 posted 04-22-2011 08:55 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     A possibly interesting but separate discussion, Denise.
 
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