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Balladeer
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25 posted 04-10-2011 06:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Uncas, I am not an expert in that field not a member of congress. I'm just an average guy with more questions than answers. Off the top of my head, I would say revenues rise when production rises,  therefore find ways to cause production to rise.

What causes production NOT to rise? I would say unions  that can place strangleholds on business with unfair demands. I would say taxes  unfair enough to cause companies to either move or relocate their prodution overseas. I would say making businesses so leery of what the government may do to them that they don't hire and, therefore, don't produce as much. All of these things are happening now. We do not have a healthy environment for production increase and I don't think we will have as long as Obama is in office.
Uncas
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26 posted 04-10-2011 06:51 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Thanks Mike,

Raise production - sounds reasonable. Any idea how high production would need to be raised?

.
Balladeer
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27 posted 04-10-2011 07:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No idea but I would think that it would be tied in to how much the governments spends. If you quadruple production and quadruple government spending, you have gotten nowhere, I would think.
Uncas
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28 posted 04-10-2011 07:37 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


If you kept spending at today's rate Mike you'd need to increase production across the board by 60% to raise enough revenue to cover it, to put that into some perspective production increases, on average, by 3% per year.

Denise's suggestion doesn't fair too well either. You'd need to add around 80 million jobs to maintain current spending levels, which, unfortunately, is several times the available workforce.

I'm not shooting holes in your suggestions, or Denise's, for personal fun Mike, I'm trying to make a point that any one method for reducing the deficit isn't likely to work and that some are far less likely to work than others. Fixing the deficit is going to take a whole bunch of different methods, raising production is one of them, increasing employment is another, raising tax has to be part of the solution too as well as spending cuts.

The fun really starts when you realise that almost all of those things are interrelated - change any one and you can negatively impact one, or more, of the others.

.
Balladeer
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29 posted 04-10-2011 08:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If you kept spending at today's rate Mike you'd need to increase production across the board by 60%

Well, that presents a simple solution, doesn't it? Stop spending at today's rate.

Next case...
Denise
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30 posted 04-10-2011 08:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm living on 2007 wages in a 2011 world. That seems like a good place for Congress to begin.
Uncas
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31 posted 04-10-2011 08:48 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


We seem to be right back where we started.

Which area are you going to cut to make up the deficit Mike? All the discretionary spending and every penny of the defence budget perhaps? Because that’s the level of cuts you’d need to make.

Chanting the ‘cut spending’ mantra is all well and good but unless you have a real suggestion of the specific areas you’d cut it doesn’t really get you anywhere.

.
Bob K
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32 posted 04-10-2011 09:23 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

There was nothing to stop them, as long as they stuck together. (italics are Bob Kaven's)



     You begin to make an interesting point and then qualify it out of existence.  To suggest that Democrats are a united party is a waste of good electrons.  To suggest that the initiatives that they passed were anything approximating the initiates they proposed is absurd.  You may have forgotten the discussion about filibuster and the Republican use of it during the last couple of years in the Senate, but I have not, and I have some sympathy for the use of that instrument.  The democrats were able to get some legislation through because of their control of the House during the last election cycle.  Much of that was blocked or traded away by the stalemate in the Senate and by the razor thin margin there, which was not enough to overcome the threat of fillibuster.

     That required a supermajority of sixty votes for virtually every piece of legislation, and the Republicans made virtually every piece of legislation exactly that sort of battleground.  

    
Bob K
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33 posted 04-10-2011 09:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

quote:

All three majors - senate, House, and WHite House and you still blame republicans for stopping them...an amazing statement.



     It certainly is.  In the situation where the Republicans held all three, they didn't stand for anything of the sort.  I believe that the Democrats may be a little bit more queasy about the exercise of power than the Republican's, frankly, or that the Republican donors may have spread the wealth around a little more broadly, or that there are more right wing Democrats than people actually credit.

     The latter is my best bet, given the fact that real simply-a-bit-to-the-right-of-center-Republicans have all been excluded from the Republican party, it's likely that a fair number of them, like our current President, have simply started calling themselves Democrats to get some sort of electoral validity.
Bob K
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34 posted 04-10-2011 09:35 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Uncas is making a series of valuable points, in my opinion.

     During the period of steady healthy growth in the forties and fifties, the tax rates were far higher, by the way, especially on the most wealthy, and there was a healthy and growing middle class.
Balladeer
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35 posted 04-10-2011 10:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Which areas, Uncas? Well, let's begin by making a list of all governmental agencies created since, let's say, 1975. Let's do a comparison of the amount of government workers decade by decade. That's a good place to start. Let's take the figures of Medicare fraud and see how much the government is losing on them.

We have become government dependant. I'm afraid I would take a hard-line approach, which I know would not endear me to many people. I know that, when I went to school, I was given a buck a day from dad to buy lunch in the school cafeteria. If I didn't have the buck, I didn't eat. The government wasn't responsible for giving me that dollar...my parents were or else I was. When and why did Uncle Sam start being responsible for my lunch? Was it really to feed kids or was it a way for the government to get a hand in the school's business? Where did all of the government programs come from, doing all of the things people used to be responsible for doing themselves? Ok, I'm rambling but I could come up with a hundred thoughts along the same vein. Knock out the over-abundance of government agencies....that's a start. There are thousands of ways to cut spending or get things done.

There was a great movie called "Dave" in which a normal guy (Dave) who happened to be a physical twin to the president of the US was put in his place as a substitute when the president had a heart attack  the powers that be didn't want the public to know about. He was supposed to be a figurehead, nothing more. He saw, however, that he could do some things better. He wanted a program to aid the poor but was told there was no money that could be allocated for it. He saw that money was being paid to a major company for producing fighter planes and that they were way behind schedule. He took the monthly payments the gov't was paying to the company, telling the company they would be paid when they produced, took the money, put it in the bank and used the interest produced to fund the program he wanted. He came up with all kinds of solutions. Yes, it was a movie but it had a lot of truth in it as far as how inefficient the government was and how much better it could be when looked at with sensible eyes.

How to cut spending? Have the government get back to governing and stop being all things to all people. Have people get back to being responsible for themselves without standing there with their hands out. Get some efficiency and common sense back in Washington, DC.

Will that ever happen? I say no. The government is a big blender. Decent people get placed in the top and, after going through the grinder, we are left with a colorless mass of goo at the bottom. What I do know is that the government will keep spending money and keep insisting that the people pay more to support that habit.

End of Sunday rant.....
Ron
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36 posted 04-10-2011 10:36 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Balladeer: Tell your fellow democrats to do their share instead of doing what they can to get out of it.

Mike, you shouldn't encourage people to break the law.

Seriously. I think anyone, be it Democrat or Republican, individual or corporation, who doesn't avail themselves of their legal deductions is just plain anti-American. Anyone here planning on paying more than they have to simply because the government says they need it? Yea, I didn't think so.

Don't blame people, Mike, for following the law. Blame the law.

quote:
BokK: You forgot to show me the place where I said I wanted to shift everything from the people to the government, Ron.

No, Bob, I didn't forget. I quoted you precisely so I could show you where you said it. You don't see it that way, of course, because you think it's a given that government should pay for people's needs. I, on the other hand, don't think the rich or anyone else should be forced to assume responsibility for you and me. We should take responsibility for ourselves.

Denise
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37 posted 04-10-2011 10:39 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Cuts need to be made across the board to everything bringing them down to at least 2008 levels, at least. Nothing can be exempted from cuts.
Balladeer
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38 posted 04-10-2011 11:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Don't blame people, Mike, for following the law. Blame the law.

Yes, I suppose you are right, Ron. Personal morality or integrity has little importance where money is concerned. If you can get away with something through whatever loopholes you  can find, do it. As you say, it's your duty as an American.

Huan Yi
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39 posted 04-10-2011 11:18 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"up 50% from 2009"


That doesn't sound like cash;
rather like market values
which would quickly diminish
with any major attempt at conversion.

Even so, the total, (3.6 trillion), would cover
about three years of current deficit spending.
At least then the very very very rich
would be very very very poor which is some comfort.


"The net worth of the 1010 billionaires in the US was $3.6 trillion in 2010 "


Where did you find that information?
My search comes up about 600 short.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_billionaires

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_billionaires

.


Balladeer
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40 posted 04-10-2011 11:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, to clarify, I have no issue with people using deductions they are entitled to. When they manipulate the facts, though, in order to sneak through a back door to avoid taxes and still not have it be illegal, then morality/integrity comes into play, I believe. That's what Kerry did with his boat and what Gore does with his time. Holder and Rangel didn't even have that going for them. They just broke the law...period.
Bob K
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41 posted 04-10-2011 11:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:
Ron:
As long as you want to shift the responsibility for everything from people to the government{. . .]



     No, Ron, I didn't say this.  Nor do I agree with this.  These are words that it appears you are trying to attribute to me that I do not agree with.  If you wish to disagree with things I have said or I do mean, I have no quarrel with you on doing so, though we might have an interesting back and forth, as we've had from time to time in the past.

     This would be like me suggesting that you want an oligarchy with no governmental protections to keep people from being ruled by corporations and those people that run them.  You may be fond of entrepreneureal spirit, but you still believe in Democracy as I understand things, and — also as I understand things — understand that our form of government is Democracy (or a democratic Republic or a Republican democracy or however you would like to parse it) rather than Capitalism.

     I make an effort not to attribute things I know are antithetical to your thinking to you, as I suppose is not only prudent but also fair.  I have no interest in shifting responsibility for everything to the government.  I do not trust the government enough to do so, as I have made clear in postings not only about Republican administrations, but also Democratic administrations and their assaults on human rights and civil rights.  I'd appreciate it if you would take that into account.
Bob K
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42 posted 04-11-2011 12:07 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



    
quote:


But for those guys who earn minimum of 27,000,000 per year, I'd like to see them pay as well. It's your contention, then, that they don't pay, Bob?



     If they can hire decent tax attornies?

     Otherwise I have the same access to their tax records as you do, Mike.  I take it your contention is that they do, and that the tax breaks pushed through congress have nothing to do with them is that right?  That the oil depletion allowance saves all of us money?  And that BP should be getting tax rebates after the oil spill?

     You know what percentage of America these folks own, and you know in aggregate, what percentage of the taxes they pay on that ownership.  You know because I supplied you with those figures.  

     Some of them pay, evidently.  Do they pay proportionately to what they're extracting from the rest of us and to what they give back, however?  And there I suspect your answer will be very different than mine.

     Also, I don't approve of welfare for the rich.  It isn't as effective a spur for the economy as welfare for the poor.  It tends to go into banks and stay there or go overseas, whereas welfare for the poor tends to go straight back into the economy and have a stimulus effect of far more than the amount that was put into it.  Wefare for the rich contracts the economy; welfare for the poor makes it expand.  We've been over this ground before, including the economics of it and articles from the economist talking about the laffer curve and all sorts of conservative economic data.

     You're better at computer stuff than I am, maybe you can dig it out of some of our old conversations back in the time, roughly of Katerina, that is, if you're still interested.
Ron
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43 posted 04-11-2011 02:32 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
No, Ron, I didn't say this. Nor do I agree with this.

My mistake, then, Bob.  So you don't advocate government funding for "health care and social security and the general welfare of the people who are fellow citizens," as you suggested earlier in the thread? I'm glad to see you changed your mind about taking those things out of the hands of the people and putting them into the hands of government.
Local Rebel
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44 posted 04-11-2011 05:57 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

I'm glad to see you changed your mind about taking those things out of the hands of the people and putting them into the hands of government "the people".



I'm curious Mike and Denise -- just how much success have you had at pushing ropes?
Balladeer
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45 posted 04-11-2011 07:42 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I take it your contention is that they do

not only mine, Bob. I'm sure you have seen as well as I the charts showing how the upper 10% or so pay the 80+%  of all taxes. (those aren't exact figures but you know what charts I mean).

How do you feel about the incredible percentage of people who pay NO taxes at all? (including those demanding rebate checks for taxes they didn't pay???) They also receive the benefits of living in this country. They are supported by the taxes those evil, money-hoarding rich pay. Are they thankful for that? No, they berate them and demand more. What's wrong with that picture?

As far as looking things up in the archives, the last time I looked Ron had erased access to archives when we had the administrative shutdown so I don't think that's an option anymore unless they are back. Heading off to work, I don't have the time to check right now.
Balladeer
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46 posted 04-11-2011 08:03 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I like Eric Cantor's thoughts on Obama's 2012 plan..

Rep. Eric Cantor of Virginia, the No. 2 Republican in the House, said in an interview that Mr. Obama had already passed up an opportunity to show seriousness about deficit reduction with his 2012 budget. "Instead of returning back to the age-old playbook of raising taxes so that spending can continue, I think maybe the White House ought to take a look at what we're talking about…which is to cut spending as well as to reform these entitlement programs."
Bob K
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47 posted 04-11-2011 09:07 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


[/quote]Rone
As long as you want to shift the responsibility for everything from people to the government{. . .]
[/quote]

quote:
Ron:
My mistake, then, Bob.  So you don't advocate government funding for "health care and social security and the general welfare of the people who are fellow citizens," as you suggested earlier in the thread? I'm glad to see you changed your mind about taking those things out of the hands of the people and putting them into the hands of government.



     At what point, Ron, does the subset of the things I listed, including "government funding for 'health care and social security and the general welfare of the people who are fellow citizens,'" balloon to include the larger set of "responsibility for everything?"  Especially when I said that I specifically did not agree with such a statement.

     Surely there are difficulties enough with positions that I actually do take.  Spending time attacking positions I do not take, such as taking all rights out of the hands of people and reserving them for the government, is a waste of time.  That's not a position I take.  

     Perhaps I should, but I don't.  I feel no need to do so.

     The apparent sarcasm is wasted on me here.  Save it for somebody who disagrees with your position on this.

     I agree with those positions I actually advocated.  Not the ones you assign to me without checking in first.
Bob K
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48 posted 04-11-2011 09:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

I take it your contention is that they do

not only mine, Bob. I'm sure you have seen as well as I the charts showing how the upper 10% or so pay the 80+%  of all taxes. (those aren't exact figures but you know what charts I mean).



     I included some of those charts in my citation, Mike; so, yes, I've seen them, and I appreciate them.  You might try going back to those charts, however, and looking up what percentage of the income that top ten percent of the population makes before asking yourself if that 80% is actually as fair as it looks. (It's not 80%, by the way, more like 60%) but I do get your point.)  The amount paid is not a fair representation of what's being taken in, and the amount paid by the rest of the population as a percentage of their income hits them harder.

     Money you make tends to go more directly back into the economy than the money that Donald Trump makes.
quote:

How do you feel about the incredible percentage of people who pay NO taxes at all? (including those demanding rebate checks for taxes they didn't pay???) They also receive the benefits of living in this country.



     I think that there is nobody who pays no taxes at all in this country, Mike.  You have been listening people say that so long that you actually believe it, when you know that every time you buy a gallon of gas, a candy bar or a rubber ball you pay tax on it, and that those taxes are directed disproportionately at the poor.  That is, they are flat taxes, and everybody pays them at the same rate no matter how much money they have, and that the burden is proportionately greater on the poor than on anybody else.

     I don't know why for sure you believe that these aren't taxes, because they are clearly labeled taxes on the cash register receipts, and they are certainly included in the calculation when the republicans talk about tax day, the day that all the taxes of the years are supposed to be payed off, right?

     I speculate you must mean INCOME TAXES.

     You want me to believe that it's incredible that there are people in this country that don't pay Income taxes?

     You find that impossible to believe.  

     Why would that be, Mike?  I have an inquiring mind, and I really do want to know why you believe that is so hard to believe that some people are in such bad shape in this country that their choice is between paying income taxes and starvation or being homeless.

     When there is an economic upturn, Mike, that number goes down.  When there is an economic downturn, that number goes up.  There's actually a fair amount of research done on this stuff, and a lot of it's been done by social workers.

quote:

They are supported by the taxes those evil, money-hoarding rich pay. Are they thankful for that? No, they berate them and demand more. What's wrong with that picture?



     Actually, you could say the same thing the other way around.  Money paid the poor for welfare and other supports drives the economy and keeps it from collapse.  Perhaps you might actually provide proof that more money is paid to subsidize the poor than is paid out in tax breaks and subsidies for the wealthy; since you assert it so forcefully, I'd actually like to see some neutral figures supporting that assertion.  You make the statement as though it was a given.


Denise
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49 posted 04-11-2011 09:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The Donald Trumps of the world can and do create jobs, thereby increasing productivity, thereby creating more wealth, thereby spurring the economy.

I can't do that. Most of us can't. We just basically keep the supermarkets and other bare 'necessities of life' providers in business. When we have to tighten our belts, they suffer as well.

What we need is for the wealthy job creators to have an environment where they feel safe to invest their money in creating more of those jobs.
 
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