How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Fact-checking Obama's speech on Libya   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Fact-checking Obama's speech on Libya

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


0 posted 03-29-2011 12:58 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: "Our most effective alliance, NATO, has taken command of the enforcement of the arms embargo and no-fly zone. ... Going forward, the lead in enforcing the no-fly zone and protecting civilians on the ground will transition to our allies and partners, and I am fully confident that our coalition will keep the pressure on Gadhafi's remaining forces. In that effort, the United States will play a supporting role."

THE FACTS: As by far the pre-eminent player in NATO, and a nation historically reluctant to put its forces under operational foreign command, the United States will not be taking a back seat in the campaign even as its profile diminishes for public consumption.

NATO partners are bringing more into the fight. But the same "unique capabilities" that made the U.S. the inevitable leader out of the gate will continue to be in demand. They include a range of attack aircraft, refueling tankers that can keep aircraft airborne for lengthy periods, surveillance aircraft that can detect when Libyans even try to get a plane airborne, and, as Obama said, planes loaded with electronic gear that can gather intelligence or jam enemy communications and radars.

The United States supplies 22 percent of NATO's budget, almost as much as the next largest contributors Britain and France combined. A Canadian three-star general was selected to be in charge of all NATO operations in Libya. His boss, the commander of NATO's Allied Joint Force Command Naples, is an American admiral, and the admiral's boss is the supreme allied commander Europe, a post always held by an American.

___
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


1 posted 03-29-2011 12:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: "Our military mission is narrowly focused on saving lives."

THE FACTS: Even as the U.S. steps back as the nominal leader, reduces some assets and fires a declining number of cruise missiles, the scope of the mission appears to be expanding and the end game remains unclear.

Despite insistences that the operation is only to protect civilians, the airstrikes now are undeniably helping the rebels to advance. U.S. officials acknowledge that the effect of air attacks on Gadhafi's forces and on the supply and communications links that support them is useful if not crucial to the rebels. "Clearly they're achieving a benefit from the actions that we're taking," Navy Vice Adm. William Gortney, staff director for the Joint Chiefs, said Monday.

The Pentagon has been turning to air power of a kind more useful than high-flying bombers in engaging Libyan ground forces. So far these have included low-flying Air Force AC-130 and A-10 attack aircraft, and the Pentagon is considering adding armed drones and helicopters.

Obama said "we continue to pursue the broader goal of a Libya that belongs not to a dictator, but to its people," but spoke of achieving that through diplomacy and political pressure, not force of U.S. arms.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


2 posted 03-29-2011 12:59 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: Seeking to justify military intervention, the president said the U.S. has "an important strategic interest in preventing Gadhafi from overrunning those who oppose him. A massacre would have driven thousands of additional refugees across Libya's borders, putting enormous strains on the peaceful - yet fragile - transitions in Egypt and Tunisia." He added: "I am convinced that a failure to act in Libya would have carried a far greater price for America."

THE FACTS: Obama did not wait to make that case to Congress, despite his past statements that presidents should get congressional authorization before taking the country to war, absent a threat to the nation that cannot wait.

"The president does not have the power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation," he told The Boston Globe in 2007 in his presidential campaign. "History has shown us time and again ... that military action is most successful when it is authorized and supported by the legislative branch."

Obama's defense secretary, Robert Gates, said Sunday that the crisis in Libya "was not a vital national interest to the United States, but it was an interest."
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


3 posted 03-29-2011 01:00 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: "And tonight, I can report that we have stopped Gadhafi's deadly advance."

THE FACTS: The weeklong international barrage has disabled Libya's air defenses, communications networks and supply chains. But Gadhafi's ground forces remain a potent threat to the rebels and civilians, according to U.S. military officials.

Army Gen. Carter Ham, the top American officer overseeing the mission, told The New York Times on Monday that "the regime still overmatches opposition forces militarily. The regime possesses the capability to roll them back very quickly. Coalition air power is the major reason that has not happened."

Only small numbers of Gadhafi's troops have defected to the opposition, Ham said.

At the Pentagon, Vice Adm. William Gortney, staff director for the Joint Chiefs, said the rebels are not well organized. "It is not a very robust organization," he said. "So any gain that they make is tenuous based on that."
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


4 posted 03-29-2011 01:01 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: "Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different. And as president, I refused to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action."

THE FACTS: Mass violence against civilians has also been escalating elsewhere, without any U.S. military intervention anticipated.

More than 1 million people have fled the Ivory Coast, where the U.N. says forces loyal to the incumbent leader, Laurent Gbagbo, have used heavy weapons against the population and more than 460 killings have been confirmed of supporters of the internationally recognized president, Alassane Ouattara.

The Obama administration says Gbagbo and Gadhafi have both lost their legitimacy to rule. But only one is under attack from the U.S.

Presidents typically pick their fights according to the crisis and circumstances at hand, not any consistent doctrine about when to use force in one place and not another. They have been criticized for doing so by Obama himself.

In his pre-presidential book "The Audacity of Hope," Obama said the U.S. will lack international legitimacy if it intervenes militarily "without a well-articulated strategy that the public supports and the world understands."

He questioned: "Why invade Iraq and not North Korea or Burma? Why intervene in Bosnia and not Darfur?"

Now, such questions are coming at him.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110329/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_libya_fact_check
icebox
Member Elite
since 05-03-2003
Posts 4246
in the shadows


5 posted 03-29-2011 09:27 AM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

The real and immediate threat in the Libyan crisis is the that it jeopardizes China's oil supply.  China is the primary buyer of Libyan oil.  We are simply carrying water (or in this case, oil) for China.  We should deduct the cost from the debt they are holding.
Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


6 posted 03-29-2011 10:27 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

  
quote:
The real and immediate threat in the Libyan crisis is the that it jeopardizes China's oil supply.


Libyan oil made up about 3% of China's total oil consumption last year so I think they'd survive without it. Oil is an international commodity - China will simply buy more from other sources which will raise the price but they can afford it.

quote:
China is the primary buyer of Libyan oil.


Italy is the primary buyer of Libyan oil, by a country mile, closely followed by France.

.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


7 posted 03-29-2011 12:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

OBAMA: "And tonight, I can report that we have stopped Gadhafi's deadly advance."....yesterday


Tuesday after an hours long, back-and-forth battle that highlighted the superior might of Moammar Gadhafi's forces, even hobbled by international airstrikes....today


Sound like a premature "mission accomplished" to anyone else? "_
icebox
Member Elite
since 05-03-2003
Posts 4246
in the shadows


8 posted 03-29-2011 02:35 PM       View Profile for icebox   Email icebox   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for icebox

Libyan oil buyers by share:
http://theatlantic.tumblr.com/post/3468316185/top-importers-of-libyan-oil-libyan-oil-spreads#
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


9 posted 03-29-2011 02:54 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Mike, I consider us friends, but I do not understand the logic of pointing out the similarities of the current administrations as you condemn them, and still maintain a loyalty to the Bush administration. It's the same U.S. policy, so why are you angry?

Even if it's just a matter of partisanship, you should be a little amused.

The left-wingers are angry because they thought they voted for change.

But I would think right-wing would be more supportive (and many are) that although the Obama "doctrine" has expanded the Bush doctrine to include humanitarian efforts and
also includes U.N. policy, it's pretty much the same horse.

All of this criticism of Bush critics is, in my opinion, non-productive. But I guess it's also human. I still go on a rant and rave every Columbus day that the man celebrated as an Explorer was simply a profit-driven opportunist who utilized genocide and terrorism to establish political dominance over a trusting nation of people who didn't recognize such a fascist because they had never seen one before.

I digress, but? If we're going to digress, we should go ALL the way.

But I'm willing to make WWII an agreed upon point to begin arguing about U.S. policy in the Middle East.  

(Nobody read my link, huh?)

I'm gonna go listen to Paul Simon.

*peace poetkins*
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


10 posted 03-29-2011 03:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

All of this criticism of Bush critics is, in my opinion, non-productive. But I guess it's also human.

Yes, Karen, it is human. It's not that I complain about Obama doing what Bush did. It's about Bush doing them and getting absolutely nuked by the media and people here, while Obama, resorting to the same thing, barely getting a mention.

It's about Obama saying one thing when it is against Bush and then doing the same thing he criticized....and it's no big deal. It's about him getting behind his microphone to give a speech to the American people after he has already spent 550 million dollars, allowing them to know what he is doing, mis-representing the facts as he does so.

It's about a  lot of things, Karen. Call it goose and gander, if you like. Call it payback, if you like. I took it for 8 years and, now that the chickens are coming home to roost, I'm returning it to sender....I'm human  
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


11 posted 03-29-2011 03:33 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Thank you Mike.

It's been a puzzling time for all of us. And I do believe that just as I condemned the second Iraqi war but maintained support of our troops, that your loyalty is on a par with mine, if not more.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


12 posted 03-29-2011 03:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Friends
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


13 posted 03-29-2011 03:55 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze



Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


14 posted 03-29-2011 04:43 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

quote:
Libyan oil buyers by share:


Thanks Icebox that's a useful graphical representation of the point I was trying to make - China aren't the primary purchaser of Libyan oil and the amount they purchase is miniscule when compared to their overall consumption.

Would you consider that facts seem to contradict your 'waterboy' argument, at least as far as China is concerned?

.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


15 posted 03-30-2011 05:25 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     World War I seems a decent place to start.  Sikes/Picot,  Turket and Syria, TE Lawrence, Allenby, Versailles, that's a pretty decent confluence point, Karen.  Britain and France tried to Divide the middle east between them, trhge USSR was still trying to clarify its own internal borders, including the matter of a warm water port,  The U.S. was about to invade The USSR along with a bunch of European allies, setting off substantive Soviet paranoia, Palmer red raids here in the U.S., a spree of western Anti-semitism and colonialism starting to develop.  Very fair place to start.

     We'll propbably have to make historial references further back, but it seems like a good base line.  Why not?
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


16 posted 03-30-2011 07:09 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

I remember, although I wasn't there. But I thought it was about trade routes? And World War I was supposed to be brief, as well. I remember a bit about that because I was impressed with the Christmas story of enemies celebrating the holiday with each other...if what I read was not embellishment, it was said that they actually played a game of football. (Wish we'd stick to that.)

*smile* Nice story, sort of. I'm always interested in what makes policy, and since it's more difficult to kill someone you shared laughs and drinks with, if I'm not mistaken, that episode brought about the policy of fraternizing with the enemy as treason, yes?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


17 posted 03-30-2011 08:06 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

"World War I seems a decent place to start.  Sikes/Picot,  Turket and Syria, TE Lawrence, Allenby"


The Armenian Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide . . .

.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


18 posted 03-31-2011 02:58 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Certainly, John.  Did you think we should be in a hurry to leave anything out?  Was there anything you think we should be especially careful to bring in that you thought somebody would want to exclude?

     One of my favorite books as a kid was by Franz Werfel.  I think you might know it.  If not, I feel reasonably certain you might enjoy it, "The Forty Days of Musa Dagh."  It's about the Armenian Genocide.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


19 posted 03-31-2011 09:04 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I'm sure these comment refer to the the thread's topic of Obama's attempt at a snow job and mischaracterizarion of the facts in his address to the nation over Libya.....but I don't really see how.

Will someone please explain the connection to me??
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


20 posted 03-31-2011 05:44 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     No, it had to do with Serenity's comments about a place where it might be useful to start a frame for the discussion of a lot of the middle eastern conflict.  She suggested a time line, and that world war one might be a good place to use as a floor for the discussion.  I think she was trying to be helpful in general by keeping the discussion focused in somewhat historical time.  My contention has been from time to time that in many ways we are still dealing with a section of the world where the crusades remain a hot button issue, quite unresolved, and that the fall of Constantinopole still gives folks a great deal of pride.  The whole concept of time is different in the middle east.

     So Serenity was trying to  put a floor of sorts under the conflict.  I may be stretching things by saying in part out of affection for you, Mike, but it's certainly possible, and you're certainly the sort of guy who does inspire loyalty.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that part of Serenity's motivation, and the whole notion of giving the discussion some sort of frame is in some ways useful anyway.

     So that's my take on what the discussion's about, Mike, though I may be wrong.  I know that you're capable of taking care of yourself, but you inspire affection in others if not always agreement.

     Myself, I think that we think about the middle east in very short term ways.  The guy who seemed to understand the area best was TE Lawrence, and he inspired fanatic loyalty among some of his arab friends.  His academic work at Oxford included his thesis, which was on, of all things, Crusader castles.

     I think it may be even more basic, old enough to get coded into the basic cultural ways of experiencing time and distance that Edward T. Hall talks about in The Hidden Dimension and some of his other books.  As an old traveling man, Mike, I think you might find some of those books a lot of fun.

     Anyway, I can see that you might feel like we're drifting off base, so I'm sorry if you feel that way, and I'll try to stick closer in the future.

Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


21 posted 03-31-2011 05:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Drifting off base is mild indeed. Playing in a different ballpark would be more like it.

I refer back to the title of the thread "Fact-checking Obama's speech."

For some strange reason, I have the feeling that, if that speech were given by a republican president, there would be no shortage of comments pointing out how much it misrepresented the truth. Funny how that works, isn't it?
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


22 posted 04-01-2011 02:26 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I would like to point out how much coverage it's getting here.  I would also like to point out that the Republican reaction is by no means universally negative to President Obama's actions, that President Obama reported in that speech that he had in fact informed Congress beforehand and I don't recall that anybody in congress has denied that.

     He may not have, in fact, reported the intervention to congress, of course.  He may have reported the intervention to limited numbers of folks in the two houses, but these would probably have included members of both parties.

     I, personally, feel that this falls below what I want from a President.  I would rather have had an open discussion of the possibility of an intervention in Libya and an open vote.  This did not happen, and I've registered by anguish and anger at the way this was handled by the President.

     I believe that he's allowed the Republicans who've been open in their support of him the luxury of not having their cover blown about whether or not they had prior knowledge of the events.  I suspect they may well have had such knowledge, otherwise we could well be hearing about it now.  This is, certainly, speculative on my part.  The head of the Congressional Armed Services committee came out strongly against the action after having come out earlier as being strongly in favor of the creation and support of a no-fly zone as did Mr. Gingrich, at the same times.  President Obama did not comment, as far as I know, about either of these swift volte face maneuvers.  

     While I don't like his failure to hold a vote and to consult publicly with congress, I feel his treatment of his opponents in this regard has been somewhat statesmanlike, and that he may have in fact achieved more actual congressional support by consulting privately with congress that he would have by consulting with them publicly.

     Of course, I may be letting both sides off the hook here a little too easily.  I'd like to hear some reaction to this speculation, though.  It makes some sense to me.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


23 posted 04-01-2011 02:59 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It strikes me in passing that John may have been sarcastic in his suggestion that we be sure to include the Armenian Genocide, predating WWI as it does in places.   If that is the case, I'm sorry, but I needed more context;  I couldn't judge what piece of the discussion it was addressing and didn't know what John wished me to address, or, indeed, if John wished me to address anything at all.

      Did I miss something here that I should have explained, John, in terms relevant President Obama and Libya or to the suggestion that we put some sort of time frame around our discussion on the middle east?  I'm not sure we need one, by the way, but that's purely my opinion.
serenity blaze
Member Empyrean
since 02-02-2000
Posts 28839


24 posted 04-01-2011 03:51 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Karen thinks that serenity was attempting to underscore her previous point (perhaps something she said in another thread) that the U.S., via both parties, have a history of overt and covert interference in the Middle East. I'm not sure what John's point about genocide is about, except that I did bring up genocide in an off topic comment regarding Christopher Columbus. But that might not be why he brought it up, since I don't think it's all about me. So perhaps John could explain that for you. Or perhaps not.

But let me say this. Karen nor serenity blaze is happy about this situation. But I do not see how it could have been avoided. I've dumbed myself down (when I interjected the bit about representative Charlie Wilson) but some people prefer me dumb, so like a hooker--just tell me who ya'll want me to be.

Sheesh.

It doesn't matter to me which party was the most egregious--we are where we are, and there's no way I can see allowing Gadhafi to continue on in any aspect--his predisposition for vindictive terrorism speaks for itself.

Am I advocating the murder of a human being?

Perhaps. But as I recall, he's a murderer, too. He ranks right up there with Osama Bin Laden. I also think the United States made a HUGE mistake when they backed down from the capture of Saddam Hussein when Daddy Bush was in charge.

But--I also believe that we have the tide of revolution on our side this time.

What would really be nice is if we could arm the rebels, or "rebels" with tanks, M-16's and such that would and could decompose after a pre-determined amount of time. I dream, just a little bit. *wink*

As I said before though, discussion about fault is non-productive.

We have to start where we find ourselves now.

And yes, Karen is furious that time and attention is being diverted from Japan, our domestic problems, and what I see as the only solution available to avoid future foreign entanglements--and that would be the development of renewable, cleaner energy sources.

We (Karen and serenity) hope we didn't enrage anyone with this post. I intended no disrespect to anyone, although I realize that my tone comes off a lot more intense than when I'm joking.

This is not me angry.

This is me frustrated.

Now there's the damned phone.

THAT might provoke anger.

Now let me go see if I can convince a telemarketer to quit his/her job...

Love and peace to all.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Fact-checking Obama's speech on Libya   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors