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Fact-checking Obama's speech on Libya

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Denise
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100 posted 04-09-2011 07:05 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Boehnner is no better. He had the opportunity to allow a resolution to come to the floor for a vote early on to have the military exempted from those not paid  in the event of a shutdown and he didn't allow it, supposedly in order to be able to use it as leverage.

Equally disgusting. Our military should NOT be used as pawns in political games.

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2011/04/shameful-boehner-exploited-military-on-two-fronts-while-playing-games-with-the-numbers.html

Bob K
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101 posted 04-09-2011 07:48 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     What about the military makes you believe that it isn't part of the government, Denise?

     If you believe that shutting down the government is a good thing, then why would you be against shutting down the military?  The military is a government service, just like the FAA and the EPA and the IRS and BIA.  All of them try to take care of people.

     Being willing to shut down the government without thinking of what the effect will be on the actual people involved is also despicable, Denise.  It's the sort of action that can cause some people to die from lack of services and food. This is what I suspect George Bush, minimus meant when he spoke of "Compassionate Conservatism."

    
Balladeer
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102 posted 04-09-2011 08:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

A government office gets shut down, Bob, the people don't go to work. Does that work equally for the military? Do we tell the boys to just go home and stay there until they get paid again??
Denise
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103 posted 04-09-2011 08:04 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

There are exceptions made during any proposed shutdown, Bob. Congress, for instance, would continue to be paid, along with their 'essential staff'. Others would be furloughed. They can make whatever exceptions they wish to. They should also make the military an exception. They get paid peanuts as it is, and considering they put their very lives on the line everyday, shutdown or not, they should be paid.
Huan Yi
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104 posted 04-09-2011 11:38 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Babies will be denied milk
and puppies flattened with steamrollers.


.
Bob K
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105 posted 04-10-2011 06:23 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     And at what point did I make claims about babies and steam-rollers, John?

     It would be more useful to deal with what I do say than with what I don't say if we are talking about my actual post and about the problems with the republican position here.  You may have noticed I started out my comments by agreeing with the criticisms of the Washington Post Fact Checker, and acknowledging where the Former Speaker got things wrong.  You might also have noticed my agreement in large part with you about the dubious legality of President Obama's position in Libya.  I'm not spouting party line here, John.  This is not reflexive thinking.  

     It would be foolish for me to assume your math isn't as good or better than my own.  I understand about deficits fairly well.  What part about the Republican tax-cuts decreasing revenues for humanitarian programs  am I failing to get across here?  Not simply all programs, because the Republicans make certain that subsidies for oil companies and their friends remain.  The programs for humanitarian work and relief for the needy appear to be attacked preferentially by the Republican proposals.  

     What part of the fact that stimulus to the economy comes directly from such programs as food stamps, WIC and Unemployment insurance benefit programs fails to make an impact in Republican Reasoning?  Subsidies to business tend not to have anywhere near the stimulating effect on the economy.  Why should we have to offer tax breaks to BP, which shows quarterly profits larger than the GNP of many countries, and which apparently this year paid no income taxes in the United States at all?  They seem to be doing quite well on their own, thank you.  

     Formerly middle class folks, on the other hand, thrown out of work by the massive recession, on the other hand, could probably use some of that dough to help feed themselves and theirs while they look for work or until the economy for the working poor opens up a bit.  The very very very wealthy may be upset about taxes on luxury goods, but they don't seem to be under the kind of pressure that the poor are dealing with.

     As a physician, what would the solid medical consensus opinion be of defunding Planned Parenthood, which is a primary women's health provider for many women.  The funds the government supplies go to cancer treatment and screening, pap smears — a variation on a theme there — birth control and gyn services.  Basically, prevention of pregnancy and helping make sure that babies are born in as good a condition as possible.  Do you feel the consensus medical opinion would be that we should defund such programs?

     I'd be surprised if you told me that it was.

    

Balladeer
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106 posted 04-10-2011 07:20 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Let me ask again, Bob.

" What about the military makes you believe that it isn't part of the government, Denise?"

What about the Congress makes you believe that it isn't part of the government, Bob?

As Demise points out, they were to be continued to get paid during a shutdown, while military pay would be put on hold. What part of that sounds right to you?
Uncas
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107 posted 04-10-2011 08:51 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


The military would get paid because they're classed as essential, they'd simply get paid late because the people who process their pay checks aren't classed as essential.

That's the thing about large organisations like governments and the military - there individual parts are highly interdependent.

The girl who makes the thing- ummy- bob is, in reality, just as important as the fighter pilot - or at least should be. Once upon a time everyone knew that.
http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/t/thethingummybob.shtml

.
Denise
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108 posted 04-10-2011 09:40 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Not according to the Dept. of Defense, Uncas.

quote:

“All military personnel will continue in a normal duty status regardless of their affiliation with excepted or non-excepted activities,” reads the memo. Yet, it adds, “military personnel will serve without pay until such time as Congress makes appropriated funds available to compensate them for this period of service.”

Civilians working for the military in essential activities also will not be paid. DOD civilians “not engaged in excepted activities” will be furloughed.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0408/Government-shutdown-101-What-does-it-mean-for-the-military
Uncas
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109 posted 04-10-2011 09:47 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Which part of that contradicts what I said Denise?

.
Denise
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110 posted 04-10-2011 10:55 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

They wouldn't get paid until Congress appropriates the necessary funds to pay them. It isn't just a matter of the check processors being furloughed. If Congress can receive their checks in a timely fashion, the same should hold true for the military.
Uncas
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111 posted 04-10-2011 11:59 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Denise,

The military would be paid, your earlier post attests to that, they'd simply get paid late - not because the checks wouldn't be honoured due to a lack of funds but because the folk that issue them along with other payroll and administration staff wouldn't be there to process them.

Oddly any folk being furloughed due to a Government shutdown would probably be paid back pay too. They were last time.

Denise
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112 posted 04-10-2011 02:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If Congress doesn't appropriate the funds, then there would be insufficient funds to cash any checks even if they were issued.

But regardless, being paid late doesn't pay the bills. And they wouldn't fall under the category of being furloughed as the non-essential classification of government workers.

If the pay of Congress is timely assured despite a government shutdown, then at least the military pay should also be timely assured.
Balladeer
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113 posted 04-10-2011 03:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So the essential military would get paid late and congress wouldn't. Congress, made up of primarily millionaires get their checks on time but the soldier needing to feed a family and make house payments doesn't. COngress deserves their disapproval rating.
Bob K
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114 posted 04-10-2011 09:38 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Why should congress be paid during a government shutdown, Mike?  Where did I say they should?  Show me where I said that, please?  The quote would be appreciated, or an appology.
Bob K
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115 posted 04-10-2011 09:49 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Having gotten caught in government shut downs by the Massachusetts state government in in 1980's was part of what got me upset about Michael Dukakis.  I found that I couldn't eat IOU's.  And my landlord was not understanding.

     I am not thrilled with the Republicans trying to cut salaries for state and federal workers this time around.  I am in sympathy with Denise trying to live a 2011 life on 2007 money after having invested a fair amount of time in developing expertise in a state system which the state seems to want to tell her does nothing but waste money and do nothing of value.

     I don't believe this is true about state jobs in general, which from my experience tend to be demeaning and demanding all at the same time.
serenity blaze
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116 posted 04-10-2011 10:09 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Denise? I come from a family with a tradition of both military and civil service.

The only job I ever had that made me feel like I was doing something that gave back to society was when I worked for the Department of Human Resources, in the central pharmacy, supplying meds to the Health Units.

My salary was such that I qualified for those services, too.

The cries of "shutting down the government" infuriated me so much--I couldn't stop thinking how many of my days were spent trying to meet "deadlines"--every single hour, it seemed. And those deadlines were sometimes literal--I was the assistant to the pharmacist who handled the Handicapped Children's program. If I screwed up, that could mean that a child might have a setback, a seizure, or possibly even die.

I actually wept listening to people who don't seem to understand how necessary some of these programs are to people who have no other recourse.

You have my total empathy. My husband and sister both still work for civil service, too. It's not an easy job, since quite often it means that this job of service entails listening to people's complaints all day, and trying to listen past their anger to understand their frustration is one of helplessness and fear.

I tried to imagine a world without government and I didn't have to try very hard.

All I had to do was remember the days, the months, after Katrina.

Just getting mail was a cause for celebration.

And the day the garbage trucks began rolling to pick up the mountains of trash absolutely unified the neighborhood.

I watched our congress at work all week.

Pompous and self-righteous behavior ruled the proceedings. I've been crying a lot this week.

They can't undo this one. Just threatening to shut down the government, and utilizing our troops was a global embarrassment.

Since we're fact-checking, is it true that G.E. paid no taxes last year?

And why don't we ask those Wall Street folks to give us back the monies used to bail them out? If they could afford to give out bonuses why can't they return the favor of a bail out and bail out the people who made that possible?

I swore I wouldn't do this...sigh.

My apologies if my simple logic annoys anyone and I also apologize if I somehow insulted anyone.

I do not understand this "shut the government down" talk. I do think we need more watchdog organizations, though. I'm just as mad at government workers and their overpaid bosses who skim from their budgets...padding expenses so that they can plea for more every fiscal year.

I don't know what the answers are, but I do know that if you kill the working class, you are slaughtering the true goose that lays the gold tax eggs.

And this is off-topic, but I find Donald Trump extremely annoying. I can't take him seriously. I feel like he's eyeing up the White House like it's a casino...
Denise
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117 posted 04-10-2011 10:36 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I couldn't even watch the proceedings this past week, Karen. I even tried to avoid the news. They all make me sick. They should live in the real world with the rest of us. Then maybe some of their decisons would make sense.

I am blessed more than some I guess in that my brand new current job in civil service that I was promoted to in January is ususally not stressful. It came with a whopping $100 net pay increase per month (I felt rich!), which I actually did receive for one two week pay period ($50) before being hit with the healthcare incrase before the next pay cycle, leaving me a whopping $20 net pay increase per month over my previous job. Base pay is still at 2007 levels with no increase in sight. But did I mention that I LOVE my new job?! I really do! So that counts for something.

Balladeer
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118 posted 04-10-2011 11:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Idon't understand your protest, Bob. Show me where I said you said what you are demanding an apology for?
Bob K
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119 posted 04-11-2011 12:11 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I am glad you love your new job, Denise.  You deserve a job you love.
Bob K
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120 posted 04-11-2011 12:12 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



You deserve an apology from me, Mike.  I flew off the handle, and I simply shouldn't have.  I'm very sorry.
Denise
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121 posted 04-11-2011 06:02 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Thanks, Bob.

Yes, Karen, G.E. paid zero federal taxes last year, quite a bit less than I paid.
Balladeer
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122 posted 04-11-2011 07:28 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No worries, Bob. You don't have the only pilot's license for off-handle flying. We all do it at times
Bob K
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123 posted 04-12-2011 06:45 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K

Thank you, Mike, I appreciate that.
Huan Yi
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124 posted 04-12-2011 10:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Yes, Karen, G.E. paid zero federal taxes last year, quite a bit less than I paid. "


"Who" is G.E.?

How were no federal taxes paid?  Was there
a loss carryover?  Were there things done
with the incentive of tax credits?  Are
they, unlike individuals, required to maximize
their liabiltity?

The tax code is a mass of sticks and carrots.

.
 
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