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Libya

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Huan Yi
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0 posted 03-21-2011 06:52 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Why are we there?

Who are we killing for?

When the anti-Qaddafi,
(that’s all we really know about them),
guys start killing the pro-Qaddafi people,
what then?


.
Bob K
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1 posted 03-21-2011 07:12 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'd say you've got a good set of questions there.

     I've never been fond of the man, myself, but it does bring up the question of what is the basis for a sane policy for the U.S. in the middle East.  There have been periods where we have been in favor of intervention, as when President Reagan bombed them back in — what? — 1987?  Then there have been periods when we've been magnanimous about them, as in the late Bush ear when it appeared that the man was giving up Nuclear ambitions and there was a flurry of nice things said by the administration and the press.

     Yesterday's comments from Denise suggested nto me that it was anti-American to be against Kadafi because his oposition might have Islamist ties.  I seem to recall, though, that Kadafi made a lot of fuss about his own fundamentalist Islamic ties back at the time of the Lockerbie bombing.

     I think what we need is some sort of clarification of U.S. doctrine.  What are we for and what are we against here?  And what's the justification for it all?

     My own vote here is that we should be encouraging democracies in the middle east, and free elections there, and secular, constitutional governments with religious freedom for the populations.  I am not sure at all if that would fly in that part of the world, though.

     If the intervention in Libya heads in that direction and doesn't involve U.S. troops, I tend to be in favor, I guess, but I'd feel a lot better about the whole thing if there was a settled piece of foreign policy to back the decision up.
Bob K
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2 posted 03-22-2011 12:52 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Do you have any thoughts on the matter, John?
Huan Yi
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3 posted 03-22-2011 01:54 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/262694/obama-s-incoherent-case-war-mona-charen


As far as getting into war,
I would say to Mona it's all a matter
of who's doing it


.
Bob K
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4 posted 03-22-2011 07:30 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I disagree, I do believe, unless you mean the Congress.  In that case I would agree.

     By those standards, there hasn't been a legal declaration of war since World War Two.  Any President who has fought one has exceeded their constitutional powers, starting with Truman; and I mean Democrats and Republicans, both.  We are a nation besotted with hubris.
Huan Yi
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5 posted 03-23-2011 11:00 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


All it will take
is one Blackhawk down . . .


.
Bob K
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6 posted 03-24-2011 02:38 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K




     And what?

     We've already lost one aircraft, and run an rescue mission for it.  If you were a little less enigmatic and a biut more straightforward, I'd understand what you were saying somewhat more clearly.
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7 posted 03-24-2011 10:22 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Richard Lardner, Associated Press – 1 hr 35 mins ago

WASHINGTON – As America's NATO allies shoulder a greater share of the mission in Libya, the Arab countries that urged the U.N. Security Council to impose a no-fly zone are missing from the action.

Except for the small Persian Gulf nation of Qatar, which is expected to start flying air patrols over Libya by this weekend, no other members of the 22-member Arab League so far have publicly committed to taking an active role. The U.S. has sold many of these countries, including Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, billions of dollars in sophisticated military gear over the past decade to help counter Iran's power in the region.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110324/ap_on_re_us/us_us_libya

Oil-rich Arab countries are getting a dozen countries fighting bankruptcy to spend their money and do their work for them. Factions, whose intentions we don't even know, are getting us to oust the dictator so they can take over. I'm becoming a believer that they ARE much smarter than we are.

Obama still hasn't defined either why exactly we are there, what we will do exactly, or how long we will stay.

At least Hillary came up with the solution..

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said order could be resolved quickly — if Libyan leader Gadhafi would just quit.

Thank you, Mrs. Clinton.
moonbeam
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8 posted 04-13-2011 10:50 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Humm Bob, interesting thread.

I think what Huan is saying is that he thinks that Mona is wayyyy off target, and that it's ok to go to war if you have a moral motive and UN backing.  I agree with him on that.  

The "blackhawk down" snippet, is a reference to the massive losses that Bush suffered in Iraq, contrasted with the more measured response of Obama in Libya where losses have been minimal.  
Denise
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9 posted 04-13-2011 04:35 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Where no losses should be suffered because we shouldn't be there.
Huan Yi
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10 posted 04-13-2011 06:28 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"The "blackhawk down" snippet, is a reference to the massive losses that Bush suffered in Iraq, contrasted with the more measured response of Obama in Libya where losses have been minimal. "


wrong

.
Bob K
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11 posted 04-15-2011 02:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Come on, John.  Is this 20 questions?  Are you going to get people to keep making people guess and dole one monosyllablic answers?  At what point in the conversation do you do 50% of the work and actually say what you think so we can talk about the subject of the conversation you suggest instead of trying to do our part of the conversation and yours as well?  

     Topic says Libya.  

     Author says, Huan Yi.

     "Wrong" is a meaningless piece of feedback unless it offers some information about the How of the wrongness.  It would be as meaningless as "Right" in the same circumstances.  It is essentially non-responsive.  It is a conversation stopper.
Balladeer
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12 posted 04-15-2011 06:16 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Apparently it's not a conversation stopper, Bob, since it got a response from you

Libya, and our involvement, is a joke. We are conducting air strikes while Hillary is saying Kadhaffi must go as he is riding around Tripoli in a convertible waving to the crowds. The U.S. has turned it over to NATO while still participating in the bombing (while claiming they are not) and drawing criticism from Britain and France that they are not participating enough. The revolutionary forces we are supposedly helping are conducting ethnic cleansing themselves upon Africans, while complaining that the US and NATO are notdoing enough for them. The blossom festival in Washington, DC could have been cancelled for lack of funds while we drop hundreds of millions of dollars in bombs in Libya, which is having little effect on a dictator who we may or may not demand that he step down from power.

MB  calls it Obama's "measured" response. Yes, I can measure it in terms of intelligence.....zero.

John is right...one Blackhawk down. That should do it. Yes, Bob, we lost a plane - due to mechanical failure with everyone safe. What happens if an incident occurs where Americans are killed, such as the downing of a 'copter, assault on a barracks, or whatever? What does Obama do then? Does he say, "Darn, let's get out of there", as he sends letters of regret to the families or does he send in ground forces to avenge the deaths and let them know they can't mess with the big guys? Then we can have three wars going.

You may disagree with Afghanistan or Iraq all you want but at least there was a reason for going in. You may call it a bad reason but at least it was a reason. What is the reason for Libya? To save people from an evil leader? There are evil leaders all over the world. To get Khadaffi out of power? Depends on which day you ask Obama and Hillary. Why, then?? Because it was a knee-jerk reaction from a president who has no idea what he is doing and just does. For past references to similarities, you can check the stimulus package, health care bill, cap and trade and everything else in which he used the reasoning "Do something even if it's wrong." Libya, and Obama's reaction to it, should be his swan song. One can only hope....

Bob K
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13 posted 04-15-2011 01:01 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Take a deep breath and two aspirin, Mike.

     What was it you were trying to talk about here?

     Do I think that President Obama is right to be in Libya?  Not the way he did it.

     Is there enough reason to be there?

     I haven't seen anybody offer a clear case.  In the absence of a clear case, I'd have to say no.  In the absence of clear consultation with congress, probably not.

     Afghanistan was probably unnecessary, given the possibility that we could have gotten Bin Laden tried in a neutral jurisdiction without going to war.  Your contention  that there was a reason for it is no more convincing than President Obama's for Libya, in my opinion until it got so out of hand by 2009 that it was a matter of cleaning up a mess that we were more or less responsible for creating.  Iraq, we were given one made up trash reason after another for going in as the trumped up nature of each became more and more indefensibly clear to the public.  Now we're in the You-broke-it, you-bought-it scenario that was predicted back in the beginning for cleaning up a total muck-up of policy with no exit strategy.  

     The only justification that I can see is that it poured money down the drain to enable Republicans to attack the social support network.  If that's what you want to call a policy with purpose, then I'd have to concede that one to you.  I'd simply have to quarrel about the long term good it's had for the country as opposed to the long term goals of the radical right wing of the Republican Party.

     In fact, that's about the only reason why I can imagine there's the amount of support in the Republican Party for the Obama policy in Libya now.  It tosses away money and gives people more of a reason to sound justified in saying they need to cut the social support network.

     But then that's just my take on the thing.
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14 posted 04-15-2011 08:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What I'm talking about is rather obvious, I would think, Bob. If it would help to write it in another language, I know four

Yes, the way Obama went in is a mistake. it showed no thought, no planning, and no intelligence or forethought. The few Republicans who support it are also wrong.
Capisch?
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15 posted 04-16-2011 08:09 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

This looks rather simple.

Bob seems to believe most wars are likely to be in principle "wrong", because they involve killing people.  At the very least there would have to be a VERY strong case to make war, probably involving some element of self defence.

I think that's a principled and logical stance.

Mike appears to think that Republican wars are right and Democrat wars wrong.

I don't get that view at all.

Huan seems to venture that all is meaningless confusion.

Which is a fair enough viewpoint too.

Personally, I'm nearest to Bob, but more bloodthirsty.
Bob K
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16 posted 04-18-2011 04:35 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm pretty much the same as Bob, too, only far more principled.
Balladeer
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17 posted 04-18-2011 07:33 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, the way Obama went in is a mistake. it showed no thought, no planning, and no intelligence or forethought.

Which part of that do you disagree with, mb?

You are right about one thing. This is a democratic war....or, better said, an Obama war.
Huan Yi
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18 posted 04-18-2011 12:23 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“There are increasing doubts that the United States can stay out of the airstrikes in Libya as NATO is quickly running out of precision bombs less than a month after the strikes began. It wouldn't be difficult for NATO to call in U.S. reinforcements since strike aircraft have been on "standby" in the area. Indeed, U.S. military officials say they don't think it will be long before the NATO commander requests their deployment. The allied nations have said they want to carry out more strikes but even "the current bombing rate by the participating nations is not sustainable," reports the Washington Post. Although the United States has "significant stockpiles" of laser-guided bombs, its "munitions do not fit on the British- and French-made planes that have flown the bulk of the missions."


http://slatest.slate.com/id/2291465/


.

Bob K
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19 posted 04-19-2011 07:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Left wing talk show out of Chicago reported today that there is talk that NATO forces are considering committing ground forces to Libya.  Norman Goldman show.  He was upset.

     So am I.
Huan Yi
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20 posted 04-21-2011 07:03 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I see we're going to use drones . . .


.
Huan Yi
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21 posted 04-22-2011 05:43 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.



“Armed with Hellfire missiles, the Predator drone is a tool for assassination from 10,000 feet. It has been used by the CIA, with a paper-thin veneer of deniability, to attack al-Qaeda operatives and related targets in the tribal areas of Pakistan, where other weapons do not reach. One would like to think that’s a special case, born of the extreme threat posed on Sept. 11, 2001, and the remoteness of the tribal areas where the attackers are hiding.

But now we have Defense Secretary Robert Gates, accompanied by Gen. James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, stating at a news conference that Obama “has approved the use of armed Predators” over Libya—and, indeed, that the first mission was launched Thursday but aborted because of bad weather.

They did not state what targets the Predator had been assigned to strike. But surely it’s likely that the goal was to kill Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi or other members of his inner circle.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/dr one-attacks-in-libya-a-mistake/2011/03/04/AFtZrRKE_blog.html


I think there’s no choice but to kill Gaddafi which wasn’t true a few weeks
ago.   I hope everyone’s comfortable with that and certainly remembers it
when a Republican is in office.


Oh yes, let's not forget his children . . .

.

Bob K
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22 posted 04-22-2011 08:51 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It is illegal to attempt to assassinate foreign heads of state under United States law, as I understand it.  If the Washington Post is reporting fact as opposed to speculation, then there is something illegal going on, isn't there?  It doesn't matter who's in office, Democrat or Republican.  The illegality would still be there.

     That would remain the case when we attempt the same sort of thing against much disliked Iraqi heads of state, too with preemptive bunker-busting bombing raids.  I objected to those as well, as I recall.  No need to look to the future, where I suspect my views would probably remain unchanged.

     You can negotiate with your friends, but negotiations are frequently just as important with your enemies.  It's important to know who they are and what the alternatives to your enemies may be lest you act foolishly and precipitously.  I am told that this principle also holds in espionage, where it is frequently useful to leave a foreign agent in place and thus have some control over the information he is fed, rather than eliminating him and wondering where the next leak will crop up.

     Of course that's just me.
Huan Yi
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23 posted 04-26-2011 03:03 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

I hear the drum being banged
for Syria in the media now, (they bored?).
Meanwhile at the White House?

.
Denise
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24 posted 04-26-2011 07:11 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Too bad they have no concern for the christian's being slaughtered in Africa by the muslims. Haven't heard a peep on the news or out of the white house. No Duty to Defend there I guess.
 
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