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Libya

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Balladeer
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75 posted 10-23-2011 10:23 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What I find pathetic is that the same people who claim Qaddafi needed to be taken out see no reason why Hussein, with a record just as  bad, should have been left alone. He was defanged? In a box? That's the best you can do? Sell that one to the Kurds.

Won't give him a win on Libya?

On 19 March 2011 a multi-state coalition began a military intervention in Libya to implement United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, which was taken in response to events during the 2011 Libyan civil war. That same day, military operations began, with US and British forces firing cruise missiles,[206] the French Air Force and British Royal Air Force[207] undertaking sorties across Libya and a naval blockade by the Royal Navy.[208][209][210]
Since the beginning of the intervention, the initial coalition of Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, Norway, Qatar, Spain, UK and US[211][212][213][214][215] has expanded to seventeen states, with newer states mostly enforcing the no-fly zone and naval blockade or providing military logistical assistance. The effort was initially largely led by France and the United Kingdom, with command shared with the United States. NATO took control of the arms embargo on 23 March, named Operation Unified Protector. An attempt to unify the military command of the air campaign (whilst keeping political and strategic control with a small group), first failed over objections by the French, German, and Turkish governments.[216][217] On 24 March, NATO agreed to take control of the no-fly zone, while command of targeting ground units remains with coalition forces.[218] The handover occurred on 31 March 2011 at 0600 GMT.


I didn't see Obama's name there at all. He's spent these months talking about how we were just there in a supportive role with no boots on the ground and now your complaint is that he doesn't get credit for the win? Nice..Sell that one to the other countries listed above or the rebel forces that actually took him out.

Obama takes out a dictator.....good.
Bush takes out a dictator......bad.

Nice to be a liberal

Local Rebel
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76 posted 10-23-2011 10:26 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:


Now many of our Christians have what I call the goo-goo syndrome — good government. They want everybody to vote. I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people, they never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.
--Paul Weyrich co-founder Heritage Foundation
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8GBAsFwPglw&v=8GBAsFwPglw&gl=US



I know the conservative movement isn't really big on democracy (when they dont like the outcome of elections and need to co-opt the Supreme Court to win) but that has always been the argument against it -- the rabble get to vote...eh?  

Did we invade Lybia?  Egypt?  I must have missed that.  Can you post a link?

Did I also miss the part where the Senate un-ratified our membership in Nato?  The UN?

Most liberals would agree with your appeal to the War Powers Act,  and Conservatives do when a Democrat is in the Whitehouse.

And I really cant believe the 'Christian' persecution argument I'm getting here.  God needs brutal dictators to protect the Christians?

Local Rebel
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77 posted 10-23-2011 10:36 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Mike,

We didn't take out Gaddafi.  We didn't spend a trillion dollars, didn't rack up 4000 US casualties, didn't invent weapons of mass destruction Where there were none.

But, lets remember who you're talking to here?  Me.  Was I supportive of going after Saddam?  Up until it became clearer and clearer that we'd been lied into war.

There's virtually no difference between the conditions we created in Lybia over the last six months, and the state Saddam found himself in post Desert Storm.

Your not talking to a liberal.  You always try to make me one, but I'm not.  You want a liberal, talk to Bob, and his position is consistent regardless who is in the White House.  So's mine.  There are some obviously variable ones though.

Denise has it right though...this was Obama's foreign policy.  

Bush unilaterally takes out Dictator -- bad.
Obama does some world- scale community organizing to protect civilians -- good.

Its nice to be an American
Balladeer
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78 posted 10-23-2011 10:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I see, We didn't take out Qaddafi but you find it pathetic that we don't give Obama the win...uh, ok, I guess.

No doubt Hillary endeared us to all of the countries who participated with her "We came - we saw - he died" comment. They must find it refreshing to know that Americans just need to show up and it's a done deal. Nice going..
Denise
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79 posted 10-23-2011 12:23 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

U.N. and NATO treaties do not trump our Constitution and Congress.

Mubarek kept the radical Muslim Brotherhood in check, LR, so yes, in that regard he protected the Christian population and the sectarian population from Islamist barbarism.

Yes, we invaded Libya, what would you call it? We did that as soon as we started bombing and putting Special-Ops on the ground to help the rebels. No, I didn't say we invaded Egypt, but Obama used his influence to topple Mubarek, which he declines to use now to help the non-Islamist groups there.
Local Rebel
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80 posted 10-23-2011 01:07 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

no fly zone
naval blockade
not invasion...

we lob drones into Pakistan... have we invaded Pakistan

Ratified Treaties are the law of the land... that's the Constitution.  When we ratified those membership treaties we also gave the President the authority to act within the terms of those charters... doesn't mean he has to....he can even reccomend we withdraw from either or both... but that would require Senate action..and we both know the Senate cant agree on the chemical composition of water.

When the Constitution was written men believed that other men told them they were coming at them with an army in a written declaration of war.

This took weeks, or months to implement.  Once the armies finally faced each other they stood in front of each other to let the other guy take a fair shot.  Arms were't very accurate, so a gentleman soldier stood a fair chance of survival.

Weapns changed.  Tactics changed.  Transportation changed.
Denise
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81 posted 10-23-2011 02:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Special-Ops were also on the ground in Libya.

The Constitution and U.S. laws trump any treaties. Treaties are not the Constitution and they aren't interchangeable. If we have a law stating that only Congress can authorize the use of troops, outside of a direct attack or an imminent threat on our country, then that autorization must be gotten before committing troops, and absent prior authorization, as in defense of a direct attack or imminent threat, where hostilities are expected to last longer than a specified amount of time, then by the timeframe set forth in the War Powers Act. Obama observed none of it and did not have the Constitutional authority for anything that he did. And he couldn't care less.
Balladeer
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82 posted 10-23-2011 07:33 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You won't get any argument there, Denise.
Bob K
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83 posted 10-23-2011 07:50 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Special Ops were also on the ground in Pakistan, Denise.  Once you try to justify the conflict in Iraq and its sequelae, you have a very difficult time drawing a clear line anyplace else.  I think they were all bad decisions, and I think we were suckered into holding Afghanistan responsible for al Qaeda.  It was an escalation where no escalation was necessary.

      It's easier to say so in retrospect, of course.

     The non authorization for action in Libya may be a matter of principle on the part of the Congress, it may be a matter of political petulance.  It's very difficult to tell with the way this particular Congress is behaving, at least for me.  They did seem to vote the money for supplies for the forces in the area, which seems a form of authorization.  With few troops if any involved in ground operations there, they might well have chosen to do otherwise without putting lives in danger.  Or at least it seems so to me.

     Principle or political posture are difficult to distinguish from each other.

     Because the formal approval was not given, I think the President was wrong.  Because the principle and the posture were so entangled, I must confess a great deal of upset with the congress, whose actions seem to make weasels appear straightforward.

     I think attempting to salvage statesmanlike behavior out of this whole thing  is like trying to carve the stripes out of toothpaste, conceptually interesting but practically improbable at best.
Local Rebel
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84 posted 10-23-2011 08:18 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Depends on who you ask Mike.  Dennis Kucinich would be in complete agreement with Denise.  

The Constitution, Denise, says ratified treaties ARE the law of the land.  

The Constitution also says that the President has the power to MAKE war, a distinction that has led to only 5 formal declarations of war in US history.  Obama's (the president, not candidate) interpretation and application of the War Powers Act is the same as every president since it was enacted.

Do you really think if the Republicans in Congress thought they had any legal standing they'd be wasting their time on Solyndra?
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85 posted 10-23-2011 08:31 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Britain's defense secretary, Philip Hammond, said the Libyan revolutionaries' image had been "a little bit stained" by Gadhafi's violent death. Both he and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said a full investigation is necessary.

Sounds like maybe Hillary is backing off from her Caesar impersonation???
Denise
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86 posted 10-23-2011 10:14 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Bob, I think comparing politicians with weasles is a really bum rap for the weasles!

They are the law of the land ONLY when they don't conflict with the Constitution in any way in implementing them, LR. If there is a conflict then the Constitution takes precedence.

A President's powers to declate war are extremely limited by the Constitution, and intentionally so.
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87 posted 10-24-2011 01:42 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, you're begging the question.  It's a matter of opinion about the imitation.  Also, Hilary hasn't been dead over 2000 years, isn't Italian, and while she, too, was a Senator, it was a different country.  Perhaps if you actually spent some time defining what you meant, the analogy might seem like it wasn't an impossible stretch.  Could you clarify the logic that you were expecting people to follow?
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88 posted 10-24-2011 07:57 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My apologies, Bob. I wasn't aware that you were not familiar with Roman history.

Caesar, not only erased the blemish of the earlier Roman loss on this very site, he erected a monument to commemorate just that event. He set about reorganizing parts of the eastern provinces and set up Mithridates of Pergamum as King of Pontus in recognition for his loyalty and service in Egypt. Caesar then crossed from Asia to Thracia, and set sail for Italy. In the meantime, in recognition of his overwhelming victory, he sent a simple, but powerful message back to Rome and the Senate: "VENI VIDI VICI", I came, I saw, I conquered.

Hillary, giggle in full force, made a weak attempt to mimic Caesar with her, "We came..we saw...he died" comment.

I'll try to make my references clearer in the future.
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89 posted 10-24-2011 01:12 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"We came..we saw...he died"


Hearts and minds Mike
hearts and minds . . .

“The bodies of 53 Gaddafi loyalists have been found at a hotel in the Libyan city of Sirte after apparently being executed, a human rights group says”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15428360


Have no illusions . . .
.

[This message has been edited by Huan Yi (10-24-2011 02:58 PM).]

Bob K
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90 posted 10-24-2011 04:57 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thank you for the info, Mike.
Bob K
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91 posted 10-24-2011 05:41 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It's good to see that the Human Rights folks are doing a good job.  Whoever's responsible for  the extra-judicial executions needs to be held responsible, no matter which side of which conflict they are on.  I know that you're an occasional listener to NPR, and I wondered if you'd heard the report from there this morning?  

     Sirte, being Kadaffi's home town, was apparently a showplace  as far as Kadaffi was concerned.  He turned it into a town of big villas, tall palm trees and wide streets with no industry at all.  Those who lived there had to work elsewhere.  It was one of the places where at the end the fighting, according to that NPR report as I remember it, was heaviest.  There are also a large number of body dumps being found there.  The ones NPR was reporting on were from ProKadaffi forces, and from simply natural deaths, which happen during fighting anyway.

     Nobody usually wants to get killed in the process of burying somebody the love, so it's a matter of safety and necessity and — in some cases — religious law.  I'm not surprised to see graves with folks executed by the rebels in them, though.  When you memoirs of war, it becomes reasonably clear reasonably quickly that there are some troops you should know better than to entrust with prisoner transport; they've lost too many friends, they're too stressed or combat has given them an adaptive psychosis for the duration.  And then there are psychopaths in any organization.

     Sometimes it becomes a matter of policy, even, in some wars and in some organizations.

     I agree with your outrage, John, but I think you may be defining it too narrowly.

     I also wanted to say that I've noticed you bringing more of yourself, your thoughts and insights to the conversation in addition to your reading, and I wanted to say that the discussion feels much richer for me because of it.  It's a great addition.  Thanks.
Denise
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92 posted 10-24-2011 06:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
The president also unveiled a new attack line certain to be repeated often in the coming days: "We just can't wait for Congress to act." The new White House mantra goes along with a planned series of announcements to demonstrate that the president is ready to use executive actions wherever he can to make up for congressional inaction. "I'm here to say that we can't wait for an increasingly dysfunctional Congress to do its job," he said. "Where they won't act, I will."

http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/obama-says-housing-help-can-t-wait-for-congress-20111024

This is one scary, out-of-control, dude.

Off topic, I know, but it validates my earlier comment that he violates the Constitution and couldn't care less.
Balladeer
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93 posted 10-24-2011 06:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You previewed my new topic, Denise
Local Rebel
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94 posted 10-24-2011 06:48 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

quote:

The new help only applies to mortgages through either Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, which FHFA oversees. But that offers no help to the millions of homeowners whose mortgages are through private lenders – something the White House contends cannot be done without congressional authorization. “Any mortgage is a contract, and the government can’t simply come in and force refinancing of contracts,” Housing and Urban Development Secretary Shaun Donovan told reporters on Monday. “What we can do is take steps today for the portfolio of loans backed by FHFA.”

--Denise's article



Afraid your article doesn't bear out your contention at all.
Denise
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95 posted 10-24-2011 11:17 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It doesn't bear out my contention, LR, or Obama's own words?

I'm sure the Chrysler shareholders and investors thought they had protection under the law too. They did...until Obama happened.
Local Rebel
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96 posted 10-24-2011 11:42 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Are those the same Chrysler shareholders who begged Reagan for a bailout back in the 80's?
Local Rebel
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97 posted 10-25-2011 02:58 AM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

Ah, my mistake.  Carter was still barely in office when the deal went through, January 7 1980.  I guess we've been living in a communust country for the last 31 years.
 
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