How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 Libya   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

Libya

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


25 posted 04-26-2011 07:52 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Sorry. I meant Duty to Protect.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


26 posted 04-27-2011 09:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm sorry, Denise, but where did that come from?

     Libya is pretty much a Muslim on Muslim conflict, or was until the west got involved.  It seems that you're comparing apples with Pontiacs.

     I don't like our involvement with Libya for reasons that I've mentioned above.  Is acting badly in one situation justification for acting badly in another?  I thought that we were supposed to be a country that separated religion and politics, at least ideally, even if we tend not to act that way.  Is there some reason why we should act like a theocracy ourselves?  I see that as only harmful in a world in which religion—pragmatically speaking— can be as divisive a force as it is.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


27 posted 04-29-2011 08:37 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.



“Obama may be moving toward something resembling a doctrine. One of his advisers described the president’s actions in Libya as “leading from behind.”

— Ryan Lizza, The New Yorker, May 2 issue


Krauthammer was apparently as stunned as I was in reading this:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/265933/obama-doctrine-leading-behind-cha rles-krauthammer


.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


28 posted 04-30-2011 03:06 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“If the United States is committed to promoting responsible, accountable, and representative government around the world, it cannot just do so where it is easy. It should do so where it matters. If Gaddafi has forfeited his legitimacy, then Assad has as well, and the world’s most powerful democracy should say so now, when it matters.

Philip J. (P.J.) Crowley is the 2011-2012 Omar Bradley Chair for Strategic Leadership at Dickinson College, Penn State University Dickinson School of Law and School of International Affairs, and the Army War College. He served as the assistant secretary of state for public affairs and spokesman for the State Department from May 2009 until March 2011.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-04-28/libya-syria-crackdown-responses-reflect-obamas-inconsistency-doctrine/2/


.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


29 posted 04-30-2011 09:33 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"A NATO missile struck a house in Tripoli where Muammar al-Qaddafi and his wife were staying on Saturday, killing his youngest son and three grandchildren but missing the Libyan leader,"


"How is this helping in the protection of civilians? Mr Saif al-Arab was a civilian, a student... He was playing and talking to his father and mother and his nieces and nephews and other visitors when he was attacked and killed for no crime he committed."


Qaddafi wasn't in a tank, so it sounds like they
were going after him.  Instead, they got
his son and three children.  Now if that
happened to you what would you live to do?


.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


30 posted 05-19-2011 12:29 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“ Sir David wants Nato warplanes to bomb the perimeter fence around Gaddafi’s compound in Tripoli, a step which is not allowed under the current rules of engagement on the spurious grounds that the fence does not constitute a threat to Libya’s civilian population. But Sir David argues that if it were removed, this would demonstrate the regime’s vulnerability to ordinary Libyans, as well as affording rebels the opportunity to overthrow Gaddafi themselves. “

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/concoughlin/8519679/Britain-used-to-win-the-wars-it-fought-so-what-happened-in-Libya.html


The fence?
Ok, didn’t somebody hit his house and kill his son?


.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


31 posted 05-19-2011 07:37 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Maybe Sir David is the secretary of de fence??  ((groan))
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


32 posted 05-20-2011 07:06 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     In 1986 President Reagan ordered bombing raids conducted on Libya.  I include part of the Wiki article on the topic:

quote:


Libyan
The attacks failed to kill Gaddafi. Forewarned by a telephone call, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and his family rushed out of their residence in the Bab al-Azizia compound moments before the bombs dropped.
It was long thought that the call came from Malta's Prime Minister, Karmenu Mifsud Bonnici[citation needed]. However, according to Giulio Andreotti (the 42nd Prime Minister of Italy) and Abdel Rahman Shalgham (Libya's Foreign Minister from 2000 until 2009), Italian politician Bettino Craxi was the person who actually warned Gaddafi.[12]
According to medical staff in the nearby hospital, two dozen people arrived in military uniform and two without uniform.[13] Total Libyan casualties are estimated at 60, including casualties at the bombed airbases. Among the casualties was an infant girl, whose body was shown to American reporters and who was claimed to be Gaddafi's recently adopted daughter; others have raised doubts about this claim, suggesting it was a "posthumous adoption".[13][14]
In July 2008, Gaddafi's son Saif al Islam announced that an agreement was being negotiated with the United States whereby Libya would make any future compensation payments to American victims of terror attacks conditional upon the settlement of claims by victims of the U.S. bombing of Libya in 1986.[15] On August 14, 2008 the resultant U.S.-Libya Comprehensive Claims Settlement Agreement was signed in Tripoli by Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, David Welch, and by Libya's Secretary for American Affairs, Ahmad Fituri.[16]
In October 2008 Libya paid US$1.5 billion, over three installments of US$300 million on October 9, 2008, US$600 million on October 30, 2008, and a final US$600 million October 31, 2008, into a fund[17] which will be used to compensate relatives of the
Lockerbie bombing victims an additional US$2 million each, after having paid them US$8 million earlier;[17]
American victims of the 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing;[17]
American victims of the 1989 UTA Flight 772 bombing;[17] and,
Libyan victims of the 1986 US bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi.[17]
To pay the settlement, Libya demanded US$1.5 billion from global oil companies operating in Libya's oil fields, under threat of "serious consequences" to their leases. Libya's settlement was at least partially funded by some companies, including some based in the U.S., that chose to cooperate with Libya's demand.[18]
As a result, President George W. Bush signed an executive order restoring the Libyan government's immunity from terror-related lawsuits and dismissing all of the pending compensation cases in the United States.[17]



     I welcome any further accounts.

     I had not been aware until seeing this article that there had been any doubt about the adopting of the baby girl who was killed in the '86 raid.

     The current bombings are, to my mind, wrong.  The raids in "86 were also wrong.  The commonality to my mind, being murder and civilians.  

     Despite being morally wrong, it is indeed possible that both actions accomplished constructive purposes.  Such statements cannot help but get me in trouble on any number of grounds.  I would point out that all events are not squashed onto the same absolute level of  abstraction and leave it at that for now.

     For those who have an interest in this sort of thing, I would like to underline how George Bush blocked the payment of damages to survivors of the Lockerbie bombing and other terrorist activities when it turned out that some disbursement of oil funds might be involved.  Apparently the media didn't publicize that very well.

     I'm interested in all alternative readings, of course, and all reasonably well backed information that might fill out background or provide alternative views.

     I'm also interested in any discussion.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


33 posted 05-20-2011 08:02 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not sure I understand what any of that has to do with obama's actions concerning Libya. What am I missing?
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


34 posted 06-06-2011 01:23 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“the president and his allies are trying to establish congressional endorsement for the war through a nonbinding Senate resolution approving “the limited use of military force by the United States in Libya.” But this illustration of the president’s go-it-alone attitude would set a dangerous precedent.
These “sense of the Senate” resolutions are most often used to commemorate non-controversial events such as last month’s resolution celebrating National Train Day — not to authorize a war. “

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-obama-administrations-dangerous-course-on-libya/2011/06/03/AGDD3mJH_story.html?hpid=z3
.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


35 posted 06-07-2011 01:56 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mike, both you and John raised the subject of Kadaffi's loss of his son in your 5/19 postings.  You both sounded somewhat upset about it.  You both had reason to be upset about it.  A person's loss of his or her son is significant and sad.

     You were both somewhat quick to insinuate fault attaching to President Obama in this matter, as of course it must.  Neither of you noted that this situation was in fact a replay of the situation I mentioned above, the distinction to my mind being most obviously that the bombing was ordered by President Reagan.  Clearly, though, there were some contextual differences.  

     If I think that President Obama is at fault in this current instance — and, yes, I think he is — then the same could and should be said for President Reagan in that past instance.  And yes, I think President Reagan was culpable in that past incident just as President Obama is guilty in this current incident as well.  And yes, I said so at the time; and, yes, I'm willing to repeat that assertion now.  Guilty and guilty:  Done and done.

     So, where's your evalution about President Reagan now?  Or must we listen to prevarications, and questions about what does that incident have to do with this one?  

     When you ask what you are missing, Mike, I would have to say that I am unsure exactly where you are directing that question.  

     If it is to me, I would rather maintain a respectful silence.  

     If it is to yourself, the answer is none of my affair unless you chose to make it public.  To this point, and it's been a while now, you've been as silent as I have.  And that's fine with me.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


36 posted 06-07-2011 07:47 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

So, where's your evalution about President Reagan now?

I didn't realize the thread was about an evaluation of Reagan or why any actions of Reagan whould have anything to do with actions by Obama. If you can connect Reagan to Libya, I'm all ears. Otherwise, if it's just a case of "Well, he did it, too", we can go back through history and come up with all kinds of things, like JFK and Viet-Nam, for example, which would also have nothing to do with Libya.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


37 posted 06-07-2011 07:54 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

If I think that President Obama is at fault in this current instance — and, yes, I think he is — then the same could and should be said for President Reagan in that past instance.

It seems to be important to you that someone say a dead president's actions of a quarter of a century ago was wrong. Well, one would have to look at the similarities or differences of the two incidents, wouldn't one? What actions prompted Reagan's actions?  What prompted Obama? Perhaps a different thread comparing the two would be informative.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


38 posted 06-07-2011 05:32 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Yet Liberal about President Bush and his actions seemed so frequently to lead back to discussions of, say, President Carter and President Clinton, didn't they?  And conservative insistance that they were absolutely to the point.  Many of those cries were certainly permitted and pursued in thread afeter thread, and I memory doesn't fail me, their source was you.

     Wasn't it?
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


39 posted 06-07-2011 05:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's a fact, Bob, and I was chastized for it whenever I went that route. Seems to me that source of chastizement was you...wasn't it?  

At any rate, I can't imagine the connection here. Here's a  little recount of Reagan's actions...

On April 14, 1986, the United States launched air strikes against Libya in retaliation for the Libyan sponsorship of terrorism against American troops and citizens. The raid, which began shortly before 7 p.m. EST (2 a.m., April 15 in Libya), involved more than 100 U.S. Air Force and Navy aircraft, and was over within an hour. Five military targets and "terrorism centers" were hit, including the headquarters of Libyan leader Muammar al-Qaddafi.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/us-bombs-libya

After December 1985 Rome and Vienna airport attacks, which killed 19 and wounded around 140, Gaddafi indicated that he would continue to support the Red Army Faction, the Red Brigades, and the Irish Republican Army as long as the European governments supported anti-Gaddafi Libyans.[3] The Foreign Minister of Libya also called the massacres "heroic acts".[4]
After years of occasional skirmishes with Libya over Libyan territorial claims to the Gulf of Sidra, the United States contemplated a military attack to strike targets within the Libyan mainland. In March 1986, the United States, asserting the 12-nautical-mile (22 km; 14 mi) limit to territorial waters according to international law, sent a carrier task force to the region. Libya responded with aggressive counter-maneuvers on March 24 that led to the Gulf of Sidra incident.
On 5 April 1986, Libyan agents bombed "La Belle" nightclub in West Berlin, killing three people and injuring 229 people who were spending the evening there. West Germany and the United States obtained cable transcripts from Libyan agents in East Germany who were involved in the attack.


So Reagan responded to repeated acts and sponsorship of terrorism which took the lives of Americans, among others, and Kadaffi's vow that the acts would continue.

Nw we have Obama. Were there any acts of terrorism by Kaddafi against US citizens or territiories to initiate his action? Nope. Was there any act at all against the US or it's allies to validate his actions? Nope. What then? Ah, it was a civil war within the country that had nothing to do with the US at all. If we were to intervene in all of the civil wars going on now, we would have a very busy military!!!

Your inference seems to be that "Reagan bombed Libya and Obama bombed Libya, no difference. That's like saying ABC Demolition Corporation took down the Sands hotel under contract and Al-Qada took dowm the WTC, no difference. I see no valid parallel that one can draw between the two.

Obama had no valid reason for his actions. it was simply one of his "Do now, think later" moments.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


40 posted 06-08-2011 12:42 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Perhaps you saw me defending President Obama's actions in getting involved in Libya.  If you, you missed my frequent criticisms of those actions, especially of his bypassing congress in the process.  I disagree with those actions, and have from the beginning, and have said so straightforwardly in these pages.  Suggesting otherwise is incorrect.

     The incident that both you and John deplored was the bombing that lead to the death of members of Kadaffy's family.  I am no fonder of that action than you are.  To suggest that targeted bombings that killed members of Kadaffi's family without declaration of war was Okay because the provocation was greater under Reagan seems disingenuous to me.  Furthermore, Reagan has a history of interventions such as this without congressional approval, and even specifically against congressional directives, going so far as to deal with national enemies to do so, as in Iran/Contra, where the man sold arms to Iran to fund Congressionally forbidden attacks against the Ortega government in Nicaruagua.  Then lying to congress about it.

     I am against what President is doing now in Libya.  I was against the actions President Reagan was taking then, not just in Libya, but in undermining the constitutional authority of congress to do so to support his military adventures across the globe.  You should be too, in both cases.  That's what I think.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


41 posted 06-08-2011 07:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, it seems we have gone from "Obama bombed Libya and Reagan bombed Libya" to "Obama bombed Libya and Reagan undermined the constitutional authority of congress to  support his military adventures across the globe." It would appear, Bob. that your main interest is to go after Reagan any way you can, even when it has no connection with Libya or Obama. That's fine but I still don't see where it fits into this thread.

That's what I think.

Correct, Bob, and you have the right to think whatever you like. You will take whatever information you wish to consider important and valid and draw conclusions which you believe in. No one has the right to tell you what you can or cannot think. As a matter of fact, no one has the right to tell you what you "should" think, either, unless they consider themselves omnipotent.

No one has the right to tell me that, either.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


42 posted 06-09-2011 12:55 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Of course not, Mike.  About that, you're 100% correct.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


43 posted 06-23-2011 09:03 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“A new report from two French think tanks concludes that jihadists have played a predominant role in the eastern-Libyan rebellion against the rule of Moammar Qaddafi, and that “true democrats” represent only a minority in the rebellion. The report, furthermore, calls into question the justifications given for Western military intervention in Libya, arguing that they are largely based on media exaggerations and “outright disinformation.””


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/270293/al-qaeda-and-libyan-rebellion-j ohn-rosenthal?page=1


The article with its quotes is pretty damning.

  
.

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


44 posted 06-23-2011 12:47 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Again, imagine that.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


45 posted 06-23-2011 12:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

During the three weeks [that the town was controlled by the rebels], all public buildings were pillaged and set on fire. . . . Everywhere, there was destruction and pillaging (of arms, money, archives). There was no trace of combat, which confirms the testimony of the police [who claim to have received orders not to intervene]. . . .

There were also atrocities committed (women who were raped, and some police officers who were killed), as well as civilian victims during these three weeks. . . . The victims were killed in the manner of the Algerian GIA [Armed Islamic Group]: throats cut, eyes gauged out, arms and legs cut off, sometimes the bodies were burned . . .



And this is the side that Obama is supporting, with our resources and without the approval of Congress.

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


46 posted 06-23-2011 08:15 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I am against the U.S. involvement in Libya, and I don't like us being there for a number of reasons.  I don't like the the the the President got us there, among them.

     That said, I'd like to see some sources for the news report that aren't The National Review.

     This doesn't mean that I suddenly support our presence in Libya; I'm still against it.

     I'd simply like neutral source support of the allegations.

     I'd also like to know why somebody would have to pass a political pureity test to take up arms against Kadaffi any more than they would have had to take up a political pureity test to dislike Stalin or Franco or Hitler.  I simply don't follow the illogic of this.

      I have never followed the logic of this, from the left or the right.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


47 posted 06-25-2011 02:33 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It appears that Congress refused to block further funding for our adventures in Libya.  

     I believe that they should have put a limit on the funding and for the amount of time they would have extended that funding to cover.  It seems that neither party is willing to set a limit on how macho they wish to appear internationally, nor to the voters here.  Kadaffi is one of the the people in the world whom I find least attractive for any number of reasons.  I still find it distasteful for my elected leaders to volunteer me to function essentially as a hired assassin.  

     I would like to register my basic disapproval of my President, whom I still basically support in many ways, and of both political parties.  Ladies and Gentlemen, and I mean this with all appropriate respectfulness to those who voted in favor of extending the funding for this kerfuffle, you are all Bozos.  

     To those of you who meant well, I say that you are indeed well meaning bozos, and entitled to all the rights and privileges thereof.  There oughtta be some better way, and youse was elected to find it, and youse did not do so.  Hiss and boo.  Words fail me.  
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


48 posted 07-02-2011 11:46 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“The AU also told members not to execute an arrest warrant for Col Gaddafi from the International Criminal Court (ICC).

The warrant "seriously complicates the efforts aimed at finding a negotiated political settlement to the crisis in Libya, which will also address, in a mutually reinforcing way, issues related to impunity and reconciliation," delegates said in a statement.

The chairman of the AU Commission, Jean Ping, said they were not against the ICC, but felt that the court was "discriminatory" and targeted only officials from the African continent.

A total of 31 states in Africa are signatories to the ICC, representing nearly a third of the nations where the mandate applies.

Libyan government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim welcomed the decision.

"The ICC is a European Guantanamo Bay. It's only against the African leaders. It never deals with the crimes committed by the United States of America... and by the European powers," he told reporters in Tripoli.

Col Gaddafi, along with his son Saif al-Islam and intelligence chief Abdullah al-Sanussi, has been accused of crimes against humanity.”


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14003786


This we're to take with a straight face . . .


.
Local Rebel
Member Ascendant
since 12-21-1999
Posts 5742
Southern Abstentia


49 posted 10-20-2011 09:46 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

You guys want ketchup with your crow?
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> Libya   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors