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Passions in Poetry

Oil well, well, well....

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Balladeer
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0 posted 03-02-2011 12:05 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


"The turmoil in the Middle East has pushed oil above $100 per barrel again, and gasoline prices are following suit. ... Unfortunately, at the same time foreign supplies are falling, domestic production is being curtailed by policies of President Barack Obama's administration. The Interior Department continues to defy a federal court order that lifted a ban on deepwater drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, put in place during last spring's oil spill. Rather than complying with the judge's order, federal regulators have stalled the issuing of permits so that almost no new drilling has occurred in the Gulf in more than six months. In addition, the administration is standing firm on a seven-year ban on new drilling in the eastern Gulf and off the East Coast, and has expanded by 100 miles the no-drill zone off the coast of Florida. Vast areas in the nation's interior have been placed off-limits to drilling, as has the oil-rich Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska. Additional impact on consumers will come if Obama succeeds in his bid to raise taxes on oil companies. ... Democrats in Congress are urging the president to ease prices with releases from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. But that oil serves the purpose of protecting the country against a more serious contraction of imported oil. A better strategy would be to resume deepwater drilling in the Gulf, and consider exploring other domestic reserves. ... The only sure way to offset the decrease in foreign production is to increase domestic production, which has fallen to 5 million barrels a day from a high of 10 million. ... The risk that higher oil prices will send the economy back into recession is too great to ignore. Easing restrictions on domestic production is a necessary safeguard." --The Detroit News

Thoughts?
Ron
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1 posted 03-02-2011 01:47 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Yea, the price of cigarettes jumped to over $7 a pack recently, too. So what do YOU think, Mike? Should we plant more tobacco? Or just maybe everyone should quit smoking? I'm thinking if the prices continue to rise, the latter might actually become a realistic option.

In my opinion, more oil isn't the right answer. Sure, it's an easy answer, but it's not the right one.


Christopher
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2 posted 03-02-2011 02:52 PM       View Profile for Christopher   Email Christopher   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Christopher

We can all go back to riding horses...
Uncas
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3 posted 03-02-2011 04:01 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


I say let BP drill in the Gulf.

It won't lower the price of oil by any significant amount, OPEC will just cut  production to maintain the price, but at least BP can claw back some of the losses from the recent spill by selling the oil they recover to the US.

.
Balladeer
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4 posted 03-02-2011 06:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, your comparison is invalid. Cigarettes are a choice, like tobacco, Twinkies and ribbed trojans. Oil is a necessity. Even if Christopher were to loan you one of his horses, tell me you could avoid all of the products that use oil as an ingredient or base. Not even the Amish can do that.

No, more oil is not the answer. It's not even the question. The fact is that we use oil every day in our lives. Should the day come that an alternative is produced or discovered, fine. That is not now. You don't tell a cancer patient that he's not getting chemo because scientists expect to have a cure for cancer in 10-20 years. We use oil. Oil is vital....now. Setting aside cigarettes and horses, here are the facts and the reason I ask for input and opinions.

We must have oil to survive.

We pay billions importing oil.

The recession that we are in will get worse with the rise in the price of oil.

We have enough domestic oil to fulfill our needs.

The administration is defying federal law in it's actions against off-shore drilling.

The administration has cut our domestic oil production by 50%.

The administration is doing nothing to utilize our own oil.

Why is this not insanity?

It seems to me that one could show those points to a 6th grader and get the answer,,,,use our own oil. Yet we have adults of supposed intelligence unable  to come up with the same answer. Sometimes I think the entire administration should be contestants on "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?"

I don't expect liberals to agree but Obama, afer claiming in his presidential campaign to be in favor of domestic oil production because he knew that's what voters wanted to hear, has done just the opposite, not only reducing the amount of domestic oil produced but also costing thousands of jobs in his defiance of federal law. We are now in a recession that is on it's way to being much worse with rising oil prices and he still does not act. I don't understand it and I don't understand anyone who does claim to.
Huan Yi
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5 posted 03-02-2011 07:01 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


It would be funny if it wasn’t true, but there is currently
an attempt to thwart the construction of a pipe line
to carry oil from Canada to Texas refineries because it might
threaten the American burying beetle.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/25/state-department-pressure-brakes-   canadian-oil-pipeline/


My understanding is that the U.S. gets
only about 9% of its oil from the Middle
East.  Still, what do you think would happen
if all the origin countries that claim
not to like us cut us off, (it's happened
before)?

.

Uncas
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6 posted 03-02-2011 08:00 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


You keep saying "domestic oil" Mike but the oil extracted in the US doesn't actualy belong to the US and whether it's extracted in the US or Kuwait doesn't affect the price you pay for it.

Oil is a global commodity owned by the people who extract it not by the country they extract it from, BP will happily pay for the rights to extract oil from the gulf and then they'll be even happier to sell it to the highest bidder, at, or above, the market value.

Like any other commodity oil is controlled by market forces, namely supply and demand, and the US has almost zero control over the supply side of that equation. Sure, you can try to affect the amount of oil in circulation in the hope that you can drag the price down but OPEC, who have a far bigger share of the supply, will just reduce their output to maintain the price. You could try to cut US demand and reduce the price that way but any reduction in US demand will be swamped by the increased demand from the likes of China which will keep the price high.

The price of oil will continue to rise because demand is rising and the availability of high quality, easy to extract oil, is falling. Supply is controlled by OPEC so the sensible option is, as Ron pointed out, to reduce the dependency - the US can't change the price of oil but it can reduce the amount it uses - thereby minimising the amount it spends on high priced oil.
.
Balladeer
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7 posted 03-02-2011 08:28 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

the availability of high quality, easy to extract oil, is falling. Ok, so what about the availability of oil we have in our own country? Is it not as high quality and easy to extract? Wouldn't the way to up that availability be in upping our production?

You could try to cut US demand and reduce the price that way but any reduction in US demand will be swamped by the increased demand from the likes of China which will keep the price high.

,,,,and then


the sensible option is, as Ron pointed out, to reduce the dependency - the US can't change the price of oil but it can reduce the amount it uses

I see a conflict in those two statements. You state that any reduction will result in being swamped and then that our best avenue is to reduce dependency.

Believe me, I am all for cutting that umbilical chord by coming up with alternative energy sources. However, we need to deal with our current sitaution as we work toward that goal, if indeed we are.

"This is not a decision that I've made lightly," the president said. "But the bottom line is this: given our energy needs, in order to sustain economic growth, produce jobs, and keep our businesses competitive, we're going to need to harness traditional sources of fuel even as we ramp up production of new sources of renewable, homegrown energy."

Obama...March 2010


Ron
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quote:
Ron, your comparison is invalid. Cigarettes are a choice, like tobacco, Twinkies and ribbed trojans. Oil is a necessity. Even if Christopher were to loan you one of his horses, tell me you could avoid all of the products that use oil as an ingredient or base. Not even the Amish can do that.

What if there was no oil, Mike? Had evolution taken a different turn and life been a little less abundant back in the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods, the tar-like gunk called kerogen that forms the basis for most petroleum products would be about as rare as gold. It would be a curiosity, not a commodity.

Are you suggesting that civilization would not have risen in the absence of oil?

Nah, I didn't think so. All those petroleum based products that use oil as an ingredient or base would almost surely have been invented with alternative means.

Mike, in my opinion, oil is EXACTLY like cigarettes. It's a really bad habit that we picked up when we were young and naďve, little realizing the hold it would eventually have on us. We were innocent and didn't know it would lead to filth and, ultimately, death. It was only as we got a little older that we began to see the downsides to our dependency, but we were still young enough to think we had plenty of time yet to quit. My friend, I don't believe we're quite as young as you seem to think. We're already coughing up blood.

It won't be easy. It won't be painless. We'll have to find the courage to turn a blind eye to the short term solutions that, at best, can only delay the inevitable. We don't need cheap cigarettes and we don't need cheap oil. On the contrary, we need to make them so expensive that people will WANT to stop using them. Only then will it be economically feasible to find alternatives.

And if we wait too long?

I wish it was simply a matter of going back to Christopher's horses for alternative transportation. I don't think that will happen, though, because if we wait too long, if we keep pursuing short term solutions, if we don't develop alternatives before the oil runs out, all the horses will likely be butchered and eaten by the starving masses. Mike, your concern for today's economic impact of oil is a very small sign of what is yet to come if we continue on this same course.


Uncas
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9 posted 03-03-2011 06:38 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
I see a conflict in those two statements. You state that any reduction will result in being swamped and then that our best avenue is to reduce dependency.


I don't see a contradiction Mike. Increasing production in the US or reducing demand in the US won't lower the price of oil in the long term, which seemed to be what you were suggesting. If you can't affect the price, which is what I'm suggesting, then the best option is to avoid paying it by cutting your dependency.

There are other options of course. For instance, the US could follow the lead of most of the other oil producing nations and nationalise oil production to artificially hold down prices to the domestic market. The oil companies wouldn't be too pleased of course, and I can hear the screams of "big government" and "socialism" as I type but at least your term "domestic oil" would make more sense.

Huan Yi
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10 posted 03-03-2011 08:17 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

“Meanwhile, as much of the world’s oil supply teeters on the brink, the Obama administration has stopped new drilling for seven years in the eastern Gulf of Mexico; halted further oil and gas exploration in many regions of Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming; and will not reconsider drilling in small but petroleum-rich areas of Alaska. Instead, we hear the same tired Van Jones–like fantasies about wind and solar power as gasoline prices approach $4 a gallon in recessionary times — with nightmarish scenarios of twice that price if the Persian Gulf descends into chaos.

It is past time for the Obama administration to speak in one voice — prudently, consistently, and forcefully — on behalf of nonviolent transition to secular constitutional government in the Middle East. Meanwhile, to preserve our autonomy and options, America in the short term needs to stop borrowing money and to drill like crazy for oil and natural gas, as we fast-track coal and nuclear power.

Anything less would be near-criminal negligence.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/261163/caught-middle-east-minefield-victor-davis-hanson?page=2


.
Uncas
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11 posted 03-03-2011 09:04 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
America in the short term needs to stop borrowing money and to drill like crazy


There's a slight fly in the ointment you're prescribing Mr Hanson, you see "America" doesn't have any drilling capability. This is similar to the "domestic oil" fallacy that's banded around, BP, and similar global oil conglomerates, drill for oil and then they sell it on the global market. As I've already pointed out BP will, quite happily, drill like crazy with the minimum safety standards they can get away with and then smile while selling their oil to the US at the current market value.

How does that solve anything?

The US imports 58% of the oil it consumes but it buys 100% at market value whether it comes from a BP rig in the Middle East or a BP rig in the Gulf of Mexico.

.
Balladeer
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12 posted 03-03-2011 03:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What if oil were not created, Ron? Interesting hypothetical question. Why stop there? What if the beubonic plague had not stopped? Or smallpox? What would chairs look like if our knees bent inward instead of out?

We live at the moment in an oil-based culture. I don't get many miles per hypothetical gallon nor does a hypothetical meal satisfy my hunger. The fact that we depend on oil right now is not hypothetical - it is reality, regardless of what the dinosaurs   did . Will we see the day that we do not depend on it? I would hope so, although I doubt either you or I will see it.

We'll have to find the courage to turn a blind eye to the short term solutions I must take your comments to mean that you don't agree with Obama's remarks I just posted above.

Oil is much more than a bad habit, Ron, and I've never considered turning a blind eye to any solution to be much of a strategy.....but that's me.  

*       *         *        *       *      *     *

If "domestic oil" is a fallacy, then I must assume that "foreign oil" is also. I'm not sure the Saudis would agree with that one....interesting how so many of our learned, intelligent news reporters use both terms with regularity.
Uncas
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13 posted 03-03-2011 07:09 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
If "domestic oil" is a fallacy, then I must assume that "foreign oil" is also.


Domestic oil and foreign oil  are both descriptions of where the oil originates Mike - not assertions of ownership that makes domestic oil magically cheaper than foreign oil, which is the fallacy I was referring to.


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14 posted 03-03-2011 07:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I know that, when I lived in Venezuela, gasoline was 6 cents per gallon at the time there were lines miles long in front of gas stations in the U.S. (early 70'). Apparently there was some advantage to Venezuela for having their domestic oil. The oil companies were not nationalized at the time.
serenity blaze
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15 posted 03-03-2011 08:07 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

When I lived two blocks over? My Mom used to send me to the store to buy her a pack of Raleigh's for .32 cents a pack. Gawd we're old.

But anyhow...I did all this work of reading and stuff, so I might as well finish ruining my solid and sane reputation here at Pip.


"The turmoil in the Middle East has pushed oil above $100 per barrel again, and gasoline prices are following suit. ..."

That would be Mike's intro to this thread.

Huan Yi did indeed make me sit up with his post following:

"It is past time for the Obama administration to speak in one voice — prudently, consistently, and forcefully — on behalf of nonviolent transition to secular constitutional government in the Middle East."

followed by what I believe would be Unca's fly in the ointment part of the quote (in italics for clarity--as if that helps me, any...)

Meanwhile, to preserve our autonomy and options, America in the short term needs to stop borrowing money and to drill like crazy for oil and natural gas, as we fast-track coal and nuclear power.y

So I was like YES, then, "noooo."


I also like Ron's analogy, and it's not just to be argumentative, or about "taking sides", it's just an analogy that I understand.

I once watched a guy shoot up heroin with a broken syringe. (The "point" or needle was already in his arm, it was the plunger part that broke.) There just happened to be a pair of hemostats nearby (go figger) and he managed to keep his arm steady as he addressed that problem by utilizing the surgical instrument (hemostats) to successfully plunge the drug into himself,assuaging his nagging addiction for the opiate, which gave him a bit more time to go off in search of a better syringe and more drugs. (Still an analogy of addiction, but as disturbing as it might be visually, it's probably more akin to drilling, I think.)

That guy didn't die that day, but he's dead now, and this tale now happens to be the legacy he left in my own life.

So I guess I'm asking why we don't address what was cited as the source of the problem. That's pretty much what they do in rehab. If anyone is uncomfortable with that analogy, I might ask, who has ever had a problem with finances? If you solved that problem with a budget than surely it is understood that budget means prioritization of substance over frivolity--so, no sir, Michael, I do not understand the wisdom of slapping around our bodies for veins that are less worn for a fleeting comfort to a recurring problem.

If we have this addiction, then I suggest that a slow withdrawal is easier to survive than cold-turkey shock. I also suggest that the "moral inventory" that those famous 12 step programs utilize is vital to the success of our future generations. We do indeed need to look long and hard at just how that turmoil in the Middle East began, how much of it (if any<--for argument) is our responsibility, and how can we attone for any actions we might have made to contribute to a situation that is rife with confusion by anyone's standard of sanity.

I suppose I'm asking all, if you were King of The Forest, how would you then proceed to ensure that the forest survives fruitfully enough for all to benefit?

I know I ask questions from a basis of naivite', but I am nearly fifty years old, and I do not yet know how to define American Ideals. I have heard of rallies of citizen cooperation in the U.S--even Allied Countries in agreement of certain self-sacrificial acts by private citizens to sponsor a higher call to achieve success in wartime that was deemed to be moral in the sense that it was for a common cause of greater purpose.

We can't even seem to rally.

Oh.

And Uncas? It did occur to me that perhaps Budweiser might be considered an imported beer if you're drinking a domestic Beck's in Germany.

I should be at a parade...but there's always tomorrow. Or is there?

I think we all agree on one thing, though.

We certainly need leadership.  

Balladeer
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16 posted 03-03-2011 08:25 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No worries, serenity gal.. your  solid and sane reputation here at Pip is intact!
Balladeer
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17 posted 03-03-2011 08:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Actually, Karen, let me explain why the comparison to cigarettes or drugs is invalid. If you were to wave a magic wand to eliminate all tobacco in the world, there would be no cigarettes in your house. If you were to wave that wand and eliminate oil, what would be missing from your house? All plastics, for sure. Cosmetics, some medicines, your car in the driveway, the driveway itself, the paint on the walls, and more things than you can even imagine. Oil is not a bad habit. It is a necessity at this period of history. Should we try to replace it? Sure, but we have to keep using it until we do. To go cold turkey is not even a possibility.
Denise
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18 posted 03-03-2011 09:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

736,000 jobs, just in ANWR, could do a great deal to start turning the economy in a better direction.

http://www.anwr.org/features/pdfs/employment-facts.pdf
Balladeer
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19 posted 03-03-2011 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not to mention the thousands that could be working right now if Obama stopped disregarding federal law.
Denise
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I think last week the judge gave them 30 days to stop playing their games of holding up the permitting process. We'll see what happens.

I also read somewhere that the Justice Department was thinking of suing Bobby Jindal for something or other...don't remember the details right now.

When will the lunacy end?
serenity blaze
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21 posted 03-03-2011 10:05 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

"disregarding Federal Law"

now, I'm just a bit behind you, generationally speaking, but I was raised on Presidents who believed that the very presence of themselves as a president was Federal Law, personified.

I suppose that sad discussion is for another thread.

If you would? If you'd like that? Would you please compose a thread that could talk about a positive answer for us all?

I'm really not here to digress or just be silly, or divert--I'd honestly like to be part of some kind of productive discussion that would produce some kind of simple template of what an average citizen can do to help solve what seems to be insurmountable issues.

Anxiety is fear, and I fear the fear.

I think we can do better. And even if you think we're all doomed? It's just kinder to let me embrace a friggin' solar flare, isn't it?

New thread or not--tell me what would be at the top of the list of things that can and would be resolved? Help me out, Mike.

Balladeer
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22 posted 03-03-2011 10:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Karen, even presidents are required to follow federal law. Leaders who simply are the law by the virtue of the fact that they are the leader are called dictators. Obama is disregarding federal law with regards to the moratorium on off-shore drilling. it's easy enough for you to look up by googling it.

Look for solutions? Both you and Ron have given answers to that one. Ron believes we need to lessen our dependence on oil, cut back, and look for solutions to alternative energy and he is right on all counts. Your comment was that we need leadership. You are also right.

Americans have a good record throughout history as doing what's necessary to get through bad times and achieve a goal. I can refer or Rosie the Riveter and the "victory gardens" of WW#2. When we realize it is a full community effort, we do our part. What do we see now? We have Gore preaching reducing the carbon footprint while his house is a monument to electrical extravagance. We have Obama advising citizens to find ways to conserve energy, make sacrifices and tighten belts. He was asked two days ago about having his personal trainer flown in from Chicago on a regular basis and how much fuel that used. He didn't answer. We had Obama and his wife take seperate jets overseas for no apparent reason to pitch Chicago for the olympics, How much unnecessary fuel did that take? What about all of their vacations? We have a leader saying tighten the belt and doing just the opposite. We need leadership that will lead by example. We don't have it.

What can we as citizens do? Elect someone who will......
serenity blaze
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23 posted 03-03-2011 10:42 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Got anybody in mind?
Balladeer
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24 posted 03-03-2011 11:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That's always the million dollar question, isn't it? We spin the wheel and take our chances.

I have no one specific in mind but the next time I would suggest someone with a little experience in business and leadership and not just someone who promises change with no credentials.
 
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