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Balladeer
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0 posted 02-17-2011 04:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Will anyone seeing any of the Democratic congressmen of Wisconsin please tell them to get back to work? The sergeant at arms and the police are looking for them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110217/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions;_ylt=AlwX_bVlhDkg2YgjqGWwdkl34T0D;_ylu=X3oDMTJya2wwY2prBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMjE3L3VzX3dpc2NvbnNpbl9idWRnZX RfdW5pb25zBGNwb3MDMgRwb3MDOARzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNwcm90ZXN0c3N3ZWw-
Uncas
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1 posted 02-17-2011 05:39 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


Try the Clock Tower Resort in Rockford, Illinois.

Balladeer
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2 posted 02-17-2011 06:10 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Smart of them to get across the state line...of course, there IS extradition.

I like what they are showing about themselves and their party...
Balladeer
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3 posted 02-17-2011 06:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obama calls the proposed bull an assault on unions. I also like what it shows about him...
Balladeer
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4 posted 02-17-2011 06:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The DNC is bussing in thousands of people to join the protests...I also like what it shows about them.

On a day that Harry Reid claims that the republicans want to shut down the government, the democratic congressmen in Wisconsin are shutting down the government. So much for what that says about HIM.
Uncas
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5 posted 02-17-2011 06:36 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

Mike,

I'm genuinely curious, is the shutdown in Wisconsin a unique event or is it a recognised political tactic  that's been used by both sides in the past? If it's unique it certainly deserves to be looked at, unique events are by definition out of the ordinary and generally have interesting underlying causes. If, however, it's the standard way that the political process works in Wisconsin it's probably not so interesting.

.
Balladeer
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6 posted 02-17-2011 06:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I've checked as well as I could and have found no instances of where it has been used before. If it has, I will be as critical as I am now, regardless of which party used it.

My guess is that it was just one of those rules that got included in the state constitution, dictating that at least one member of each political party be present during votes to negate any one party of trying to railroad a law in behind the backs of the other.....sort of like what Obama did while finalizing the health care bill behind closed doors with the republicans and press shut out.

It's fairly senseless because they will have to  come back sometime. With Obama's support, which they are getting now, I assume they are hoping it will be diffused before they come back.

Run away out of state and shut down the government....quite a tactic.
Balladeer
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7 posted 02-17-2011 07:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What is more interesting is that, if this bill were an Obama creation, it would be applauded. Since it has been labeled an anti-union bill by the president, however, it is cursed.

Obama's union connections are well-known and over 200,000 federal employees have been hired during his two years in office, quite a figure in light of rising unemployment.
Denise
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8 posted 02-17-2011 07:34 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wouldn't be surprised if the Justice Department sues WI shortly.
Denise
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9 posted 02-17-2011 08:50 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Wow, I'm shocked, just shocked I tell you!
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html
Balladeer
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10 posted 02-17-2011 08:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise, the Justice dept is a little busy..
http://escapetyranny.com/2011/02/03/judge-rules-obama-admin-in-contempt-on-oil-drilling-ban/
Balladeer
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11 posted 02-17-2011 08:55 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

You are shocked, Denise??

    Im disappointed that instead of providing similar leadership from the White House, the president has chosen to attack leaders such as Gov. Walker, who are listening to the people and confronting problems that have been neglected for years at the expense of jobs and economic growth, Boehner said in a statement. I urge the president to order the DNC to suspend these tactics.

They have forgotten Arizona? So what's new?

Balladeer
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12 posted 02-17-2011 09:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

unique events are by definition out of the ordinary and generally have interesting underlying causes.

I think the underlying causes are fairly obvious. The democrats know that the bill will be passed, since they are in the minority. Their only hope is to stall for time, knowing that Obama and the DNC will do everything possible to diffuse the situation in some way. That is exactly what's happening with the bussing in of thousands of protestors, the manning of phone banks, and the like. That is what's happening now. They will hide like little children, hoping for a "coast is clear" call.

This makes two states Obama basically has sounded the war bugles against. The states are getting a clear message - cross Obama and you better cross your legs. What is out of the ordinary is a president declaring war against states. Not sure that's happened since the Civil War.

So far Obama has shown that he doesn't care what the public thinks (stimulus, health care), he doesn't care what the courts say (oil drilling and health care) and he will go after any state he disagrees with or that disagrees with him.....Chicago politics.
Denise
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13 posted 02-17-2011 10:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I read somewhere today that the same judge in Louisiana just issued another order giving the Administration 30 days to start issuing the permits that have been applied for and to come into compliance with his previous rulings. We'll see what happens.
Balladeer
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14 posted 02-17-2011 10:38 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://www.youtube.com/user/wisgop#p/u/3/71gsnLfsbbM

This video says it all.

Will the people who remarked that Palin's rhetoric and use of bullseyes were a contributing factor to the Tucson shootings please comment here?
Huan Yi
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15 posted 02-18-2011 08:21 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


What are the current tax rates
in Wisconsin?  How do they compare
to surrounding states?


.
Balladeer
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16 posted 02-18-2011 08:26 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Why not look it up, John?
Huan Yi
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17 posted 02-18-2011 02:07 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

I already have a pretty good idea
living just across the border.  It's just
I keep hearing taxing the "rich" as a
solution and I wondered how much is being
taken already, (and just who the "rich" are),
in income, sales and other taxes
compared to Indiana for example.

Here in Illinois a family with $50,000
of taxable income will be paying $1,000
more in state income tax than it did before,
which means $1,000 less meat, shirts,
and shoes for little Bobbie, (and jobs
for whomever provided them).

.
Uncas
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18 posted 02-18-2011 03:03 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

I've had time to do some research - apparently a forced quorum break isn't a unique tactic in American politics, it's quite common in some areas although it's more rarely used the higher up the political ladder you get.

It's not unique but it's rare enough to be interesting.

Wisconsin state law dictates that 20 members, of any political denomination, out of the 33 members that make up the senate must be present to form a quorum from which a vote can be taken.  On Thursday the 14 Democrat members failed to show along with two Republicans which meant a quorum wasn't attainable. State law dictates that if a quorum isn't attained the attending members will be locked in the chamber until the missing members can be brought to the chamber by the Sergeant at arms. That's because technically absent members can only be deemed absent if the senate is in session, when the Republicans adjourned and went home the absent members weren't absent anymore. Unfortunately, the law is slightly vague after that, it doesn't dictate any possible punishment for absentee members or clarify the methods, if any, that can be employed to force errant members to attend.

That's the boring technical stuff out of the way, now for the fun bits.

Are the absent Democrats committing a dereliction of duty?

The question has to be duty to whom? They were elected by a section of people to represent them in the state senate, presumably the same folk that are protesting against the proposed bill, in that respect aren't the absent Democrats truly representing the people who voted for them?

Should they be forced to attend?

I don't think so, if they're adamant that they want nothing to do with the vote and the people they represent don't want them to attend they shouldn't be forced to attend. The Wisconsin political system is resilient enough to deal with such an event. The Wisconsin Assembly, where the Republicans do have a quorum, can still vote on the bill and it's even possible to amend or suspend the quorum rule to accommodate the absent members.

Is this fiscal responsibility or union busting?

Probably a little bit of both. If fiscal responsibility and fairness were the main aim they'd have included all of the emergency service workers in the proposed bill and saved a bit more money and if it wasn't an attack on the unions they wouldn't be trying to remove the collective bargaining rights of the union members when it came to non-fiscal areas like working conditions. How much do you reduce the state deficit by removing the right to collectively bargain for safe working conditions?

.
Balladeer
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19 posted 02-18-2011 05:15 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

MADISON, Wis. – Democrats on the run in Wisconsin avoided state troopers Friday and threatened to stay in hiding for weeks, potentially paralyzing a state government they no longer control.

Meanwhile, massive protests at the state Capitol entered a fourth day as demonstrators vowed to stay as long as was needed to get the concessions they want.

"Hell no, we won't go!" they chanted inside the Capitol as they banged on drums, sat cross-legged in the halls and waved signs comparing Walker to former Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak.

Thousands of teachers have joined the protests by calling in sick, forcing school districts — including the state's largest, in Milwaukee — to cancel classes.

Outside the Capitol, demonstrators marched in a procession led by Jesse Jackson, who said workers "should be at the table full-strength to solve the problem."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110218/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions
Balladeer
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20 posted 02-18-2011 05:47 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

They were elected by a section of people to represent them in the state senate, presumably the same folk that are protesting against the proposed bill, in that respect aren't the absent Democrats truly representing the people who voted for them?

With all due respect, your presumption is only that....a presumption, unless you have a way to prove that their voters are the ones protesting and want the bill overturned. There could be many who voted for them who work in the private sector and are for the bill. The congressmen are not doing it for the people they represent. They are doing it for the unions and Obama, who is also for the unions. if we are going with presumptions, then I will presume that they could care less about the people of Wisconsin (those not union members). Besides there are thousands of protestors there who are not even a part of it, having being bussed in by the DNC, which is sleaziness to the nth degree.
They are not congressmen to represent only the people who voted them in. As soon as they are elected as congressmen, they are supposed to represent ALL citizens ofthe state.

. If fiscal responsibility and fairness were the main aim they'd have included all of the emergency service workers in the proposed bill

Not necessarily. There is a reason why they are called "emergency" services.

if it wasn't an attack on the unions they wouldn't be trying to remove the collective bargaining rights of the union members when it came to non-fiscal areas like working conditions.

The unions are definitely targeted simply because the unions are the ones to employ collective bargaining. The protestor are not screaming about no collective bargaining for safe working conditions. They are screaming about money. There are two interesting facts here.

First collective bargaining for salaries are exempt from the bill. Second, as far as the teachers are concerned, the average teacher in Wisconsin earns $89,000 per year in salary and benefits. The average non-union employee nation-wide is $61,000.00, salary and benefits. The bill would require the group making the 89,000 to contribute part of their earnings to help pay a small of their pension and 12% of their health coverage. Those against the bill argue that those making the 61,000 should continue to pay for the pensions of those making 89,000.  Is there any wonder the non-union workers are against it? I know personally I have no one paying into my pension. If I don't save for it, that's my problem and yet union members claim they have the right to have others pay for their pensions.

They don't ask where the money is coming from. They just expect it. If the state is broke, they don't care about that, either. They just want it, presumably by just wanting it is sufficient enough to make it magically appear.

Obama made his speech last week saying "We must live within our means." Realistically he should be supporting this bill. His actions, along wiht the DNC's, show that his words are meaningless and false. He only talks the talk. The reason is obvious....he wants to do anything to appease unions. Anyone doing anything that could hurt unions is his enemy and he will go after them, as he is doing now. He is showing how two-faced he really is and where his actual priorities lie.

He also made a speech after the Tucson shooting how we must not engage in hateful rhetoric which can fuel violence. Apparently the folks in the video didn't get that message.

What did you think of the video, by the way?
Uncas
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21 posted 02-18-2011 06:04 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
What did you think of the video, by the way?


The same as I thought about the other videos, from both sides, which were presented as evidence of dangerous rhetoric - pretty darn flimsy and a tad pathetic.

.
Balladeer
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22 posted 02-18-2011 06:13 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer


Thank you for not disappointing...
Balladeer
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23 posted 02-18-2011 06:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

BTW, what the federal employees would pay under the bill is 5.6% toward their pensions and 12.8% for their health insurance, both figures less than half of the national average.
Denise
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24 posted 02-18-2011 07:21 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The bill also gives them a no-layoff clause, which they don't have now.

So if they get their way and the bill fails, many of the protestors will be laid off as a way of balancing the budget.

You'd think they would want to keep their well paying jobs and cadillac insurance plans and pay a little bit more for their benefits rather than join the ranks of the unemployed, losing their paychecks and their health benefits.
 
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