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Passions in Poetry

I Don't Get It

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Balladeer
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100 posted 02-13-2011 10:10 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Are you seriously claiming that Def Leppard was not dastardly???!??
Denise
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101 posted 02-13-2011 10:43 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

LOL Are you having an identity crisis, Chirpy?

A group can work against Israel without outwardly calling for its destruction as the MB does. Their outward words don't necessarily give us the complete picture of their aims, but their actions may. Why would they willing work with those who do call for Israel's destruction? If they were completely averse to the idea, would they jump into bed wtih those whose primary mission is the destruction of Israel?

Bob, I agree, I also don't think that all of our allies are blameless in all things. I do think right now, though, that any so-called U.S. ally finds itself in a very tenuous situation.  

Rob, I never asked you to engage in a debate. I merely asked your opinion on a couple of things. What I do 'get' is that most of those, including you and the 'conservatives' you pointed to, can never seem to disagree with someone on the right without resorting to hurling personal invectives, instead of addressing the issues raised. And, yeah, I'd call that a cop-out.

Uncas
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102 posted 02-13-2011 12:12 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

quote:
Why would they willing work with those who do call for Israel's destruction?


Because they have something in common - they want to see the Palestinians freed from Israeli suppression. That doesn't however mean that they all agree on the best method for achieving that goal or that they all see the destruction of Israel an inevitability on the way to that goal.

Beck has a standard modus operandi - he takes diverse groups or individuals and paints them all based on the evidence of the extremes. Here's Becks logic:

Some members of the Muslim Brotherhood believe that the best way to do this is to annihilate Israel.
Dave also wants to see the end of Israel's suppression of the Palestinians.
Therefore, Dave wants to annihilate Israel.

It's false logical argument called affirming the consequent.

quote:
LOL Are you having an identity crisis, Chirpy?


Not really, for some reason people seem to be using my old online pseudonyms when addressing me so I thought I'd join in.

I think I've had about 10 names at this site and probably an equal number at various other sites on the web. I normally only ever use one at a time at each site though, to avoid confusion.

Legion


Denise
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103 posted 02-13-2011 12:38 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You left out the part where Dave jumps into bed with the MB. If Dave isn't completely uninformed then he knows the stated agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood, but chooses to ignore it and aligns himself with them anyway. So one could be led to believe that Dave's desire to see that his goal is met is 'by any means necessary', up to and including the annihilation of Israel.


quote:

Not really, for some reason people seem to be using my old online pseudonyms when addressing me so I thought I'd join in.



Okay, point taken, Uncas.
Uncas
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104 posted 02-13-2011 03:10 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


I'm pretty sure that CND and Jews against Palestinian suppression haven't jumped into bed with the MB Denise. Beck makes that claim based on the fact that some members from one group and some members from the other happened to attend the same conference in Egypt. That's like claiming that every member of PIP is a racist because you went to a Tea Party gathering where there were KKK members.

Denise
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105 posted 02-13-2011 04:01 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

"Mapping the Organizational Sources of the Global Delegitimization Campaign Against Israel in the UK,” Report clearly lays out the ongoing collaboration of all these groups. They didn't just happen to show up at the same conference, unbeknownst to one another. They've clearly decided to work together to foster their respective political goals, which can't be said of the Tea Party and the KKK.
Uncas
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106 posted 02-13-2011 04:33 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
"Mapping the Organizational Sources of the Global Delegitimization Campaign Against Israel in the UK,” Report clearly lays out the ongoing collaboration of all these groups.


But it doesn't Denise.

I've read it a couple of times. The document is an Israeli sponsored list of groups that have criticised the Israeli suppression of Palestine. There's a neat graphic with some pretty arrows connecting the groups but no evidence that all the groups listed are collaborating in an international conspiracy to overthrow Israel and take over the world.

.
Denise
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107 posted 02-13-2011 05:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The fact alone that they have made 'common cause' with those who do call for the destruction of Israel says all that has to be said about them, in my opinion.
Balladeer
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108 posted 02-13-2011 10:52 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

This has not been verified but it would certainly be quite a situation if true...

Islam Times Exclusive:
Saudia Arabia's King Abdullah passed away
Islam Times - Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz passed away yesterday, according to an Islam Times reporter...
Islam Times
Saudia Arabia

Islam Times: Saudi Arabia's 86-year-old King Abdullah was discharged from a New York City hospital in good health after going through two back operations in December 2010. The king delegated the management of the affairs of the world’s largest oil supplier to his half-brother, Crown Prince Sultan bin Abdulaziz, during his absence.

King Abdullah talked with Obama about the situation in Egypt over the phone yesterday. Obama and the King got into a  heated debate about their opinions of what Hosni Mubarak should do. After the phone call sources stated that King Abdullah was furious and then suffered a sudden heart attack.

Doctors ran to his rescue  but were unable to save him.  He was pronounced  dead, but his death was  not reported due to the  sensative conditions that  exist in  the region. The Saudi Arabian government will reject this claim; but the ball is in their court to prove that he is alive.  

(c) Islam Times

http://islamtimes.org/vdcc1sqp.2bq048y-a2.html

Balladeer
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109 posted 02-13-2011 11:45 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, there was nothing on the evening news and, although the site looks realistic, it must be a fluke.
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110 posted 02-14-2011 09:56 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It looks like a legitimate site, but coming out of Iran, I wouldn't credit its truthfulness.
Huan Yi
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111 posted 02-14-2011 10:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"Saudi Arabia's 86-year-old King Abdullah"


Only Americans live forever . . .


.
Denise
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112 posted 02-15-2011 10:25 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

When will our defender of freedom of the people and democracy come to the aid of these protestors in Iran? Can't he hear them as he heard the people of Egypt?
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/15/iranian-lawmakers-execute-opposition-leaders/
moonbeam
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113 posted 02-15-2011 11:17 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Denise

Inviting me to comment on what was said in an interview is an invitation to a discussion, imho.  But if I was wrong, sorry.

Sorry also if it appears I was stooping to personal hurtful comment.  I, of course, have been around here long enough to know you are a nice person, and my comments were meant to be directed at your views rather than your personality.  While your personality comes over as outgoing, friendly, gay, carefree and relaxed, your views come over a bit entrenched and make it hard for me to engage with you in constructive discussion.  But then maybe you'd say the same about mine!

Be well, stay sane .

Also

Hilary Clinton:

"    Well, first, let me very clearly and directly support the aspirations of the people who are in the streets in Iran today. All through the crisis in Egypt, we had three very consistent messages: We were against violence, and we stated it often and we communicated it directly to Egyptian authorities. Secondly, we supported the universal human rights of the Egyptian people. And third, we stood for political change that would result in positive outcomes that would give the Egyptian people a better economic and political future.

    We believe the same for Iran. We are against violence, and we would call to account the Iranian Government that is, once again, using its security forces and resorting to violence to prevent the free expression of ideas from their own people. Secondly, we support the universal human rights of the Iranian people. They deserve to have the same rights that they saw being played out in Egypt and that are part of their own birthright. And thirdly, we think that there needs to be a commitment to open up the political system in Iran, to hear the voices of the opposition and civil society.

    And I would add that what we see happening in Iran today is a testament to the courage of the Iranian people and an indictment of the hypocrisy of the Iranian regime, a regime which over the last three weeks has constantly hailed what went on in Egypt, and now, when given the opportunity to afford their people the same rights as they called for on behalf of the Egyptian people, once again illustrate their true nature. So our message has been consistent and it remains the same, and we wish the opposition and the brave people in the streets across cities in Iran the same opportunity that they saw their Egyptian counterparts seize in the last week."

Fine words, but what will the US do?  What CAN the US do?  What did the US actually do for the Egyptian protesters?

PS Has the MB taken over Egypt yet Denise?
Huan Yi
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114 posted 02-15-2011 12:27 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"PS Has the MB taken over Egypt yet Denise?"

Answer in 5 years
or less . . .


.
Uncas
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115 posted 02-15-2011 01:46 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
When will our defender of freedom of the people and democracy come to the aid of these protestors in Iran?


Do you mean Glenn Beck Denise? If so the answer is probably never, he's convinced that the protesters in the middle east are part of the red\green alliance, remember? The protestors are the bad guys working to install the Muslim Brotherhood into a position of power according to Beck.

It's another inconsistency that blows Becks conspiracy theory out of the water. Beck claims that the Islamists, supposedly a major guiding force behind the red\green alliance, orchestrated the protests, so who orchestrated the protests in Iran, given that the target of their protests are the biggest Islamists on the block?

Balladeer
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116 posted 02-15-2011 03:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What did the US actually do for the Egyptian protesters?  Good question, moonbeam.

Actually...nothing. However, our media is doing it's best to make it an Obama victory. This is a segment of Limbaugh today proving that point and showing how our news media, especially CNN is less interested in reporting news and more interesting in creating it. Yes, there will be those saying "Limbaugh - big deal" while holding their noses and that's fine. Shooting them messenger does not dilute the message..the segment is taken from Nic Robertson's (of CNN) interview of people on the street, attempting to get kudos for Obama.


RUSH:  Friday afternoon, CNN's Newsroom, live in Cairo.  After Hosni Mubarak stepped down from power, the senior international correspondent Nic Robertson and a man identified as Achmed have this exchange about the Egyptian anti-government protests and Pharaoh Obama.

ROBERTSON:  Achmed, you've been here down here on the Square for many days.  The United States and the international community. You've just listened to President Obama saying that America will support Egypt if it wants help and assistance, and hopes that there will be a good transition for jobs for the young people.  What would be your message for President Obama?

ACHMED: We don't know, actually, who he supports.  He serves for his own purposes, and the Egyptian people serve for our freedom and democracy.  Any democratic country should see for the people, not for its own purposes.

ROBERTSON:  Mustapha is joining me now.  We just heard President Obama say that he wants to extend, eh, support and assistance to Egypt and Egyptians if they want any, and he hopes that there are more jobs for the young people in the future.  What's your message for President Obama?

MUSTAPHA:  Well, my message to President Obama is just, "We started this revolution without any outside help, and we are going to finish it also without any outside help."

ROBERTSON:  Are you pleased that President Obama has come out, however, now and said he supports this change and supports the people and supports the young people and -- and what they've done?

MUSTAPHA:  Well, actually President Obama's views were kind of conflicting during the last week --

ROBERTSON:  The view from here is one of very happy to now hear that President Obama has swung behind the people.

RUSH:  That's Nic Robertson, finally saying -- after all of this, after all that you just heard, he says -- "The view here from here is one of very happy, to now hear that Obama has swung behind the people."  Not one of the people he talked to had anything positive to say about Obama!  Achmed. Mustapha twice.  It comes time for the wrap-up, here is audio sound bite number 16. It comes time for the wrap-up again and here's Nic Robertson, you've just heard Achmed and Mustapha twice basically say, "He's irrelevant. Why are you asking us about Obama?"

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_021411/content/01125107.guest.html
Uncas
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117 posted 02-15-2011 04:39 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


An Obama victory?

Which dipstick is putting that forward as a plausible conclusion?

At the start he was hoping Mubarak would weather the storm. Then, when it was obvious that something had to give, he thought Mubarak leaving would be sufficient and another puppet dictator could be quietly manoeuvred into place. Finally he turned to the Egyptian military in the hope that they could step up to the plate and maintain Americas control of Egyptian politics and policy until things calmed down and another election could be rigged..err.. arranged.

The Egyptian people? Obama doesn't give two hoots for the Egyptian people. I may be wrong but I don't recall him campaigning in favour of the rights of Egyptians while they were being oppressed by Mubarak and detained without charge. He only started cheering for the protesters when it looked like they might not go away.

.
moonbeam
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118 posted 02-15-2011 05:29 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

"What did the US actually do for the Egyptian protesters?  Good question, moonbeam.

Actually...nothing."

So then Mike why the heck is Denise confused I wonder?  What was the agenda behind her opening post of this thread?

If he did nothing for the Egyptians and nothing for Iran, where is the confusion, where the inconsistency?

Ummm ... I don't get it.

Ron
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119 posted 02-15-2011 07:09 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Nic Robertson wasn't asking about questions Barack Obama. I don't think he was trying to promote Barack Obama, either. He was asking about President Obama, the one man today who best represents the United States. I think it's a pretty normal question for an American newsman to ask. Robertson wants to be able to assure the American people (his readership) that they're still cool. That's what sells, after all, and that's what all of our media is trying to do.

The current worldview isn't an indictment of Barack Obama. It's an indictment of you and me.
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120 posted 02-15-2011 07:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Not asking about Barack Obama but asking about president Obama? If that's what you're selling, Ron, I'm not buying...which I'm sure doesn't bother you at all.  

Of course he was trying to promote Obama. His questions were geared to get someone, anyone, to say that Obama was a positive force in the situation. When he didn't get what he wanted, he kept pushing, trying to rearrange his questions to get the desired effect...and still didn't get it. So he simply pretended he did with his closing statement, which was basically idiotic when compared to his interview.


What would be your message for President Obama?

What's your message for President Obama?

Are you pleased that President Obama has come out......


Are you saying that he is not referring to Obama the man? Why not say the American people or the American government?

The view from here is one of very happy to now hear that President Obama has swung behind the people.

You call that an impersonal statement that doesn't refer to Obama the person?


Robertson wants to be able to assure the American people (his readership) that they're still cool.

I have no idea what that statement means
Denise
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121 posted 02-15-2011 08:57 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You are correct, Rob, I was inviting discussion, a sharing of views, not necessarily a debate, which is the word you were using before, which to me seems a bit more adversarial in nature.

I am entrenched in my views because they are based on my worldview, my life experiences, history, and my estimation of what I see and hear around me, from the right and the left, from which I form opinions and ultimately convictions, just as I am sure that you and everyone else does. I have been persuaded a time or two to change an opinion, and even a conviction, given new compelling information or evidence. But it's never happened as a result of being insulted. That only shuts down communication.

It took Iran only 30 days to fall to the Islamists after the fall of the Shah. I don't know how long it will take Egypt.

I'm not confused, and their really isn't any inconsistency, actually, between the way Egypt and Iran were handled. The agenda of the powers-that-be operating behind the scenes provides the explanation.    

Uncas, I believe that the power players behind the scenes (Soros, ElBaradei and all the other NWO types) and the minority radical groups (MB, SWP, PSC, IMG, et al) are the red/green alliance, and are capitalizing on the genuine grievances of the oppressed Egyptians. The majority of the protestors are not the bad guys. The people behind the scenes instigating and providing funding for destabilization and anarchy are the bad guys.

It's a tried and true communist tactic, or as Van Jones, a self-avowed communist, put it, 'bottom up/top down' = foment the anger of the people, legitimate or otherwise, to the point of anarchy, to overthrow a government and then have those who have positioned themselves at the top (the power brokers themselves or their puppets) provide the 'solution'.

The 'youth', whom these people are skilled at exploiting, and praising, are long on passion but short on wisdom and are therefore putty in the hands of the power brokers and the radical minority. They are able to make them think that 'revolution' was their idea, which stokes the egos of the young and impressionable.

And is everyone now so lacking in originality and creativity that all they can think to use is the tired old 'days of rage' slogan from Bill Ayers in the '60's?

I think the primary goal of the power brokers and some of the radicals is the destruction of Israel. An Islamist Egypt would further that goal.

I believe that the demonstrations in Iran are not being instigated or funded by these power brokers/radicals, but that it is a genuine fight for freedom by the oppressed Iranians sick of oppression under Sharia Law for the past 30 years. The power brokers and radicals are quite happy with an Islamist Iran because it suits their agenda, simply because they are the biggest Islamists on the block and a threat to Israel.

I believe this to the core of my being, but hope that I am wrong and I am open to being persuaded, through any new information or evidence to the contrary.
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122 posted 02-15-2011 09:48 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

US urges restraint in Egypt, says government stable
Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:12pm GMT

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton also said that the United States believed that the government of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, in power for three decades, was stable and looking for ways to meet the Egyptian people's aspirations.

"Our assessment is that the Egyptian government is stable and is looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people," she added.
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE70O0KF20110125

It would appear that Hillary's, and the administration's, assessment of the Egyptian's government stability was a little off the mark.

She may now be the scapegoat of the administration's incompetence.

http://hillaryclinton.us/2011/02/13/obamas-blame-game-egypt-is-hillary-clintons-fault/
Ron
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123 posted 02-15-2011 11:19 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I'm not buying...which I'm sure doesn't bother you at all.

Why should it bother me, Mike? You're allowed.  

Of course, it doesn't surprise me, either. It's all a matter of perspective.

quote:
Are you saying that he is not referring to Obama the man? Why not say the American people or the American government?

Because neither the American people nor the American government can give a speech, Mike. That requires a spokesperson and, like it or not, the President is our spokesperson. When Robertson references the words of a speech he naturally references the spokesperson. It's pretty clear, however, he's referencing him AS the spokesperson, not as a private citizen.

Read the quote again, Mike. "You've just listened to President Obama saying that America will support Egypt if it wants help and assistance ..."

Obama wasn't making personal promises in that speech. He was making promises for OUR country. Yours and mine. I don't think it's at all unusual for an American reporter to try to cast that in the best light possible. His audience would eat him (and his station) alive if he purposely tried to cast it in a negative light. Shoot, Robertson might even be a patriot (in addition to being a capitalist). He might want to honestly believe his country wasn't offering way too little way too late. It could happen.

Achmed and Mustapha clearly weren't buying it. Neither were you, though I suspect your reticence is for entirely different reasons. Considering past discussions, you'll perhaps forgive me if I wonder what your reaction might have been had our sitting spokesman been a Republican?

Like I said, Mike, it's a matter of perspective.

It's much easier to blame someone else (especially someone you already don't like) than to accept responsibility. It's our country, my friend. What happens in it is a direct result of choices that you and I (and a few million other people) have made. And continue to make. We've been raised to pledge allegiance to the flag, to look on our history with fondness, and to believe that it's okay to be proud of our country. There's another side to that coin, though. There can't be pride -- not honest pride -- without at least the possibility of shame.

And we can't ever take credit for the good this country does without also accepting responsibility for the bad. Unless we own it, we can't change it. In which case, we'll just have to find someone else to blame. Someone on the other side of the aisle, of course.

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124 posted 02-16-2011 12:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Considering past discussions, you'll perhaps forgive me if I wonder what your reaction might have been had our sitting spokesman been a Republican?

Great question! How many times was Bush referred to as Bush the president as opposed to Bush the man by democrats during his tenure with regards to controversial issues? You can count them on one hand and have fingers left over.

No, neither achmed, mustapha or I were buying it and I'm still surprised you do. His questions and his phrasings make it very clear to me (as it did to them) that he was referring to Obama personally...and they weren't going to buy it. They heard him change his tune several times during the protests, along with others in his administration. They didn't hear the American people flip-flopping...they heard him. They knew the interviewer was fishing for Obama compliments....not compliments for the American people, but for him. The reporter didn't ask them if they had a message for the American people - he asked if they had a message for Obama. It was personal. If you can't see or acknowledge that, that's up to you.

We've been raised to pledge allegiance to the flag, to look on our history with fondness, and to believe that it's okay to be proud of our country.

Oh, man, please don't get me started!!! LOL!
 
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