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Passions in Poetry

I Don't Get It

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Local Rebel
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50 posted 02-06-2011 04:38 PM       View Profile for Local Rebel   Email Local Rebel   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Local Rebel

The sound of one (the right one) hand clapping.

Denise -- will conservatives never learn that democracy doesn't mean that you always get your way?

So, it's okay for us to go to war under false pretenses in order to set up a democracy that's overwhelmingly dominated by Shia's, but you're concerned about democracy spreading through the Middle East?  Wasn't that the Neo-Con mantra?  Set up Iraq with democracy and the dominoes would start to fall?

Rob is right.

In order to take a jab at Obama you twist your own rhetoric into unfathomable pretzels.

Democracy requires opposition.
Denise
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51 posted 02-06-2011 05:10 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You are entitled to your opinion, Reb.  
Balladeer
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52 posted 02-06-2011 07:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Your prestzels are delicious, Denise
Denise
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53 posted 02-06-2011 10:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

lol- I was looking for the 'like' button, Michael!
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54 posted 02-06-2011 10:58 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

WAAAAYY too much time on Facebook, Denise!
Denise
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55 posted 02-07-2011 06:10 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I was just doing it again!
Huan Yi
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56 posted 02-07-2011 12:04 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

And should the Muslim Brotherhood be democratically empowered to run
Egypt, including its WMD programs, should the democratically elected government
of Israel, (perceiving a certain finality in “Islam Is The Solution”), take steps
not conducive to the world of puppies and kittens are we good with that?
  
.
Bob K
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57 posted 02-07-2011 01:46 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     John, you haven't even allowed Egypt the luxury of Democratic government yet.  Now you want to go on to what a Democratically elected government might do wrong.

       The last I heard, you were still suggesting that if  Democracy were allowed in Egypt without being under the tight control of people who really understand  what democracy is supposed to be —  Republican Americans who basically agree that Muslims are incompetent to make Democratic decisions without getting the okay from the RNC first — that Adolf Hitler would establish a Caliphate and wipe out every non-Muslim in the world.  

     While this is an exaggeration, I can't really establish how much of an exaggeration it really is.

     I can say that I disagree with the point of view.

     I really would appreciate it if you could correct my understanding of what your actual position is so that I could think about it.  I am not thrilled with The Muslim Brotherhood, you know; but you haven't established a position that distinguishes between rule by the Muslim Brotherhood and Democratic rule by a coalition of parties.

     In parliamentary Democracies, it certainly is possible for one party rule to emerge.  That is apparently the situation in Egypt NOW.  But if free elections are established, this often changes, doesn't it?  Unless the electoral process is tampered with, as it's been here, with the campaign contributions ruling by the supreme court, or by physical force, as was the case in Germany and I think Russia in 1917.

     Apparently Germany was the power that felt it had a right to mess with Russian electorial process in 1917, when they sent Lenin back to St. Petersberg on the sealed train.  It seems that you'd have us return to that example for a model of how we should deal with the Egyptians.  I think that messing with Egyptian elections has fully as much chance of backfiring as did the German plan of 1917.  That one produced the USSR.

     I'm for the support of democracies.

     It's what the United States used to be all about.  It's still not a bad idea.
Bob K
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58 posted 02-07-2011 01:54 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'd hope that the Democratically elected Government of Israel wouldn't act stupidly, just as I'd have the same hopes for a democratically elected government in Egypt.  There is a fair amount of economic interdependence that would suggest that getting along would be useful to them both as long as both sides are willing to act in a generously interpreted reasonable fashion.

     That may or may not be possible.  There are fools everywhere and I are, on occasion, one of them.  Why wouldn't the Egyptians and the Israelis be willing to wear clown suits for the world on occasion.  They have in the past, and that's widely thought to be the best predictor of the future.
moonbeam
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59 posted 02-07-2011 04:10 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

"Some comedy relies exclusively on being offensive."

True enough Denise - and given the banalities of some of the so called stand up comedians currently prevalent in the UK, I'm inclined to agree with you that crudeness for the sake of cheap laughs is practically never funny.

However Landover BC is imo excellent satire.  Wiki on satire:

"In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.   Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon."

And surely even you have to admit that the nuttier elements of the American religious right are a fruitful, and even constructive, satirical target.  

But back to my more serious point.  Surely it's legitimate to make satirical fun, even offensive fun, of a segment of society who seem sometimes to be hell bent (no pun intended, lol) on being truly and seriously offensive to such groups as homosexuals and other religions, and in the worst cases, anyone who doesn't share their views.
Huan Yi
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60 posted 02-07-2011 08:35 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"But back to my more serious point.  Surely it's legitimate to make satirical fun, even offensive fun, of a segment of society who seem sometimes to be hell bent (no pun intended, lol) on being truly and seriously offensive to such groups as homosexuals and other religions, and in the worst cases, anyone who doesn't share their views."


If it's the Muslim Brotherhood, I'd be careful . . .


.
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61 posted 02-07-2011 08:46 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

...or if you're a Dane drawing cartoons or Salmon Rushdie.
Denise
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62 posted 02-07-2011 10:58 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Yes, Rob, satire is legitimate. Although I find Anne Coulter much more entertaining than left wing satire, of course!

I didn't care for the link because of its crudeness.

John and Michael, I need mega 'like' buttons!!!
Huan Yi
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63 posted 02-09-2011 10:43 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2011/02/09/no_room_at_table_for_muslim_brotherhood/


It's not as if they're secret about it either . . .


.
Bob K
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64 posted 02-09-2011 02:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Mr. Jacoby takes advantage of the same same laws in the US that he suggests Egyptians not be allowed access to in Egypt.  Yes, Mr. Jacoby has a point and he and those that agree with him have always had a point.  In this country, legally at least, at Mr. Jacoby passingly point out in his column, it is a minority point.  That means that Mr. Jacoby and those like him on the far right have the option of expressing their viewpoints.  These are also the viewpoints that Mr. Jacoby would deny the far Right in Egypt the right of expressing as well.

     In this, Mr. Jacoby and The Muslim Brotherhood seem to cherish the same principles about the right of free speech and the right of dissent.  Each of them seems to believe they have the right right to speak their mind, and that other parties should apparently have limitations put on theirs.  Sad to say, it is an argument rthat that may well win, both in Egypt and in the United States, where there is discussion of how we can limit the free speech of Egyptians and limit Egyptian access to free elections to the benefit — not of their electorate but of ours.

     I think a better argument could be made out of self-interest for the United States.

     There would be more evidence to muster for the US side of things, though I would still disagree with it; I feel that the self interest argument is one that only works in the short run, though it does, I believe, work in that time frame.  It would have the advantage of not attempting to be an argument on the basis of Egyption right to self determination.  That, I'm afraid, is a discussion that only works when all segments of Egyption society are included.

     Yes, The US public has a right to protect itself.

     And how we go about that would be a useful discussion, if it can be done frankly.
moonbeam
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65 posted 02-09-2011 03:12 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Yes Ann Coulter makes some cool digs at the ridiculousness of the far Left and their often crackpot political correctness - gawd that drives me almost as insane as the loony right and their freedom obsessions.  I mean, which is worse, being told you can't say the word "bomb" at an airport, or believing you have the "right" to carry one through check-in?

And:

Lol @ Muslim Brotherhood Huan.

Right now the lucky old Muslim Brotherhood - MB - seems to have replaced ... ... The-Obama-Kremlin - OK - as the resident boogie-monster of the, "if it moves - Shoot it, if it's invisible - Praise it, if it's poor - Flog it, if it's foreign - Fight it", Republican Loony Fringe.  

Which is good.  

Because, for the time being at least, that is until they work out that the nasty devious homo loving tax making muslim sucking OK is actually working hand in glove with the MB, and perhaps even directing operations, we get a bit of peace and quiet from the post election (yes, you heard it "post election" - yanno, the undemocratic rigged one that actually gave a vote to the ghetto living queers) whining about the Evil One and his OK lackeys.

Kinda makes one wonder what will happen when all the boogie-monsters are dead, and America is Free and the Bleached White as White Praise the Lord Christian land that it should be, and every colonial-style pile has a ring of AK-47's and a rack or three of hunting rifles (just in case any boogie- monsters or birds or animals survived).  And the window on what's left of the world will be a whole-wall plasma screen, the extent of the known universe a red, white and blue dyed polar bear skin couch, and the main sustenance - you guessed it - yay, pass over another sack of pretzels will ya.
  
But just think, when all's right with the world, the Evil One long gone, and a Bushy clone on the throne again, and naughty wives wear the big "A" once more - when sex is the prerogative, nay privilege, of a man and woman in marriage, in the missionary position, kinda prayerfully in the closet, in the dark, without contraception, and purely in pursuit of kids - when all the reds, liberals, commies, socialists, and in fact anyone who can't praiiiiiiise Jeezus while nailing a moose through the heart with a Winchester Wildcat Bolt Action 22 at 300 paces are run out of town with lead in their asses, then what the heck are we gonna whinge about?



      
Denise
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66 posted 02-09-2011 07:14 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

LOL, Rob, I think maybe you are spending too much time at that anti-religious right white site!
Balladeer
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67 posted 02-09-2011 08:00 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8312960/Egypt-crisis-US-working-to-cut-out-conflicting-messages.html
HopelessRomantic101
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68 posted 02-09-2011 09:32 PM       View Profile for HopelessRomantic101   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit HopelessRomantic101's Home Page   View IP for HopelessRomantic101

Agreed.  "Democracy" has always been an excuse for meddling with world affairs.  Cuba, Philippines, Louisiana Purchase, Cold War, World War I, World War II, et al.  But that's not relevant now, is it?  What's importanti is that the United States is so noncommittal that it's sickening.  Heck, I've half a mind that the old Social Darwinism/White Supremacy is still playing a major roll in politics.

Love is the one true emotion.  It cannot be hidden--the eyes will betray the thoughts.

Denise
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69 posted 02-09-2011 10:03 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

From John's link:

quote:
But there are limits. “Liberty and justice for all’’ does not require empowering even those who seek to do away with liberty and justice. In a famous dissent to the 1949 Supreme Court case of Terminiello v. Chicago, Justice Robert Jackson warned against interpreting the First Amendment so categorically as to fortify “right and left totalitarian groups, who want nothing so much as to paralyze and discredit . . . democratic authority.’’ A commitment to liberal democracy is not an obligation to open the democratic process to parties that reject liberal democracy itself. Jackson cautioned the court to “temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom,’’ lest it “convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact.’’


Practical wisdom. Something sorely needed in this current situation.

From Michael's link:

quote:

Mr Wisner then threw himself into the mix – enraging both the State Department and the White House – by telling the Munich conference in a video link-up from New York on Saturday that Mubarak was "utterly critical" to the transition process and shouldn't be forced to leave.

The administration distanced itself from Mr Wisner and repeatedly pointed out that he is a private citizen who stopped representing the administration when he left Cairo.

Nonetheless, his message appeared to be echoed by Mrs Clinton on Sunday when she told reporters flying with her back from Munich that Mr Mubarak's early departure could be problematic and actually imperil reforms.

She suggested that the administration was now more focused on encouraging "orderly transition" in Egypt than in seeing Mr Mubarak go quickly. And she implied that Mr Mubarak's continued, although less powerful, presence at the top of the Egyptian government might help complete the process.


Thank God that Frank Wisner displayed that practical wisdom and had the courage to stand behind his convictions. I believe that his actions are primarily responsible for the about-face by Obama and Clinton.

moonbeam
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70 posted 02-10-2011 06:08 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Heh heh Denise - you may be right  

Actually of course you are Right.

But your slant on an Obama U turn is kinda funny given that the biggest backsliding of all in this will have to come from the Palin's Beck's and Tea Party nutters when they discover that after all the Evil "O" and his lefty henchmen aren't covertly formenting the bloody riots in Tahrir Square.  

Kristol had it about right when he dismissed both Beck and Palin as being hysterical.  Not to mention their other tiresomely childish past time, that of trying to pin every evil in the world on Obama.

And, for what it's worth, I do think Obama was out of step with a sizeable chunk of the western world, including the UK, when he was less than supportive of the protests in Iran.  That doesn't necessarily make him wrong - history and perspective will tell us that.  But, in any event, the guy, is human, he makes mistakes, what is there "not to get" about that!?  I happen to think he makes less mistakes than most people, and that he's been a good President so far.  I also happen to think that he doesn't deserve the pathetic juvenile spoiled brat antics which have poured over him like a tsunami from the extreme Right since the election.

Denise
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71 posted 02-10-2011 07:29 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Kristol is wrong, in my opinion, Rob. Beck is just putting the puzzle pieces together in this showing the interconnectedness of the MB, Code Pink, Bernadine Dorhn & Bill Ayers, who are over there in Cairo right now, Soros, Trumka from the AFL-CIO, and other leftist activists, etc. by using their very own words. He isn't putting words in their mouths or grasping at straws to reach a predetermined conclusion.  It's been a very enlightening series so far.

On another note, what did you think of the O'Reilly/Obama interview? What did you think of Bill asking Obama if he believed in redistribution of wealth and Obama saying emphatically that he didn't believe in it, that it isn't a part of his agenda, despite his repeatedly stating otherwise, which are on tape?  Yes, lying is a human failing, but why would someone lie knowing that it can be so easily refuted by his own words? That's what I don't get.
moonbeam
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72 posted 02-10-2011 09:31 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

"Kristol is wrong, in my opinion, Rob."

Why is that not a surprise.

Look Denise, throughout this thread you may have noticed that I'm not actually interested in debating the rights and wrongs of what is going on in Egypt and the Administration's reaction to it.  Neither am I interested now in engaging with you in a discussion about what Obama may have said in an interview as compared with what he may have said before.

All I've tried to do here is get over the point that to have a constructive and progressive discussion parties have to willing to listen to evidence and be open to change.  If they won't and aren't then there's little point in engaging imo.

Forming a totally entrenched opinion and then selectively casting around for evidence to support that opinion, or even worse, twisting evidence to "fit in" with an opinion, isn't a basis for constructive debate.  It's what the worst kind of "christians" do with the Bible, and all it does is make them look ridiculous.

As far as I can see over the last couple of years since the election, you and Mike haven't had one single good thing to say in the Alley about any of Obama's actions.  That isn't a credible position if you want to be taken seriously, and if you want people to spend time debating with you.  Clearly you have made up your mind, and even if you are confronted with evidence that you are incorrect, as I believe both Craig and Ron have done in several instances, you ain't about to change it.  As far as you are concerned the far right are all right and Obama is all bad, all wrong, and that's it.  

That's cool if that's what you want to do, but until you can find me a couple of places in the Alley where you praise one of Obama's actions instead of denigrating it, I don't propose to waste my time researching current American politics in order to have an informed discussion with you.
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73 posted 02-10-2011 02:15 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

By all mean, don't waste your time. I don't recalling anyone asking you to. If you don't want to take us seriously, that's your right, too.

If I had found anything positive I feel Obama has done, I'd have no problem saying so. I don't...from the failes pork-filled stimulus to the clunkers to the cap and trade to quadrupling the national debt to the butchered health care to the way they tried to sneak and muscle these things through, disregarding the opinions of the majority of Americans.

If you don't like double standards, then you must have hated the Bush years, when none of the liberals here had anything positive to say about Bush....or is that different in some way? It seems that if some belittled Bush, he deserved it  and if someone goes after Obama, they are nitpicking. How convenient....
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74 posted 02-10-2011 02:26 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yes, lying is a human failing, but why would someone lie knowing that it can be so easily refuted by his own words?

Easy, Denise. That's what they do. You would think that people that visible in the public eye would know that everything they say and do is recorded somewhere but they talk so fast they must forget.

WHy did Hillary speak of disembarking a plane in a foreign country in grave peril with bullets whizzing when a video show her disembarking to a band and people handing her flowers? Her explanation after being caught in that one? Well, she's been in so many countries, she got confused.

Why did Gore speak of touring the schools in Miami with the superintendant of schools with both acknowledging it's dismal state and need of funds?  When the superintendant stated that he had never met Gore, Gore's explanation was...well, if he HAD toured with the super, he's sure that's what he would  have said.

They act like they they can lie and not get caught, even in this information age. I guess old habits are hard to break.
 
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