How to Join Member's Area Private Library Search Today's Topics p Login
Main Forums Discussion Tech Talk Mature Content Archives
   Nav Win
 Discussion
 The Alley
 I Don't Get It   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ]
 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49
Follow us on Facebook

 Moderated by: Ron   (Admins )

 
User Options
Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Admin Print Send ECard
Passions in Poetry

I Don't Get It

 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


25 posted 02-03-2011 09:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Whoever takes over is not going to look favorably on America, no matter who it is.

I'm still unclear how it all started. I know that 10,000 people didn't wake up one morning and say "Good day for a riot." According to some sources it was pretty well planned and, yes, even with the muslim brotherhood involved.

According to a report from the Wall Street Journal, the coalition of opposition figures compromised of, “union leaders, judges and representatives from youth parties and the country’s banned but influential Muslim Brotherhood,” met to form a 100-member “shadow parliament,” to provide an alternative to Mubarak’s regime weeks before Egypt was rocked by the populist uprising.
http://daringminds.com/new/doubts-about-elbaradei-as-shadow-parliament-demands-mubarak-leave-now/
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


26 posted 02-03-2011 09:25 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



Denise,

         You don't see why the Iranian case is different from the Egyptian case.  

     How are they the same as each other?

      The fact that you don't see the differences doesn't tell us that you have examined the the differences or in what way you have examined them.

     I must believe you when you say that you don't see the differences, of course, but that says nothing about the actual cases involved, Denise, only that you have examined them to some extent or another.  Your suggestion that the President of Iran has any approximation of the power of Murarak, for example, would suggest that you may think that the governmental structures of the two countries have some similarities in this regard.

     I am unclear, myself, about how the religious council exercises power in Iran, how the various religious leaders there affect political decisions, who is "The Ayatollah," and what his function may be, and where the actual political power rests, except to know that it it does not rest with the President.

     The statement you did make requires no more information that this, of course.  But then, while it sounds authoratative, it would also be meaningless as any statement based on similarity that I would venture on the matter.

     Both of us know that the states involves are different, however, one being a theocracy of sorts, with pretenses toward democracy, the other being a secular dictatorship, with pretenses toward Democracy.  We do know that Iran singles out the United States for dislike.  Egypt's relationship has at least some elements of neutrality in it, and some possible elements of affinity involving a trade relationship, for example.

     We know that historically, since the death of the Shah, at least, US suggestions have not, overtly, been well received well in Iran; at least for the most part.  We know that U.S. foreign aid has been helpful in Egypt for 30 years or more, and that some U.S. suggestions and pressures have been effective from time to time in Egypt over the last 30 years.  Apparently the 2005 elections in Egypt were a step forward in fairness.  MSNBC suggests this might be laid at the feet of successful Bush state department diplomacy.

     There is, then, some evidence that the two countries are not the same.

     Thoughts, Denise?

Respectfully, Bob Kaven  
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


27 posted 02-04-2011 05:43 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The Shadow government in Egypt doesn't have to please the United States any more than the RNC has to please the Democratic national committee, Mike.  What's important in both cases is that the organization being represented feels that a decent job of representation is being accomplished, not that outsiders feel that this is so.

     You and John and I can be collectively unhappy that The Muslim Brotherhood would be a part of that shadow government, but the shadow government doesn't pretend to include us as constituents.  I am unhappy at how far to the right the Republicans reach.  You and John have similar feelings about how far to the left the Democrats reach.  All of us have things to say about each other at times that make discussion difficult.

     None of us have realistic veto power over the membership of each other's organizations.

     Each of us may well have some effect in slanting the membership lists of the other folks, however, by what we've said and how we've acted in the past, and how the other folks see us as likely to talk and act in the future.

     I see that as probably simple description of reality:  Possibly slightly over-simplified, but not by very much.  Our complaints about our enemies are at least in part complaints about our own behavior as it's reflected back at us in reality's cracked and darkened mirror.  Arabs and Jews, Jews and Arabs; Americans and Iranians, Iranians and Americans; pretty much anybody and everybody.

     I can't say your worries aren't realistic or justified, at least in part; there are people out there with good enough reason to be steamed at us.  We've certainly got reason enough to be steamed and fearful of other folks here and there in the world.  But if we let ourselves be stopped cold by our worries and our anxieties, we're in deep trouble.  A world with this sort of attitude is not really very human friendly, and there are things we need to be able to do as humans.  One of them is probably to be able to get off this world and onto some others as well.  Then, despite the various problems with what Auden said, there's the basic sense of his comment:  "We must love one another or die."

     I don't think it gets easier for being put off.

     I don't know how that means we need to deal with The Muslim Brotherhood, but one of the good things about the poetry of Auden's comment is that he didn't overmodify it.  He didn't say, except for non-Catholics or other than large flightless birds.  It was simply "we"  and then "one another."   What can I say?
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


28 posted 02-04-2011 07:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

My thoughts are that it seems more advantageous of late not to be an ally of the U.S. At least then you can't be stabbed in the back after doing its bidding.
Balladeer
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 06-05-99
Posts 26302
Ft. Lauderdale, Fl USA


29 posted 02-04-2011 10:12 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Obama Stands by Muslim Brotherhood Endorsement

by Hillel Fendel
For the first time, a U.S. government supports granting a government role to an extremist Islamic organization: the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
On Monday, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Egypt's new government will have to include a "whole host of important non-secular actors." Most prominent among these is clearly the Muslim Brotherhood which has made Islamic world domination one of its ultimate goals. It also opposes Egypt's 30-year-old peace treaty with Israel.

Today, new White House chief of staff William Daley moderated the position very slightly, saying the U.S. hopes for a "strong, stable and secular Egyptian government." Noting that the strengthening of the Muslim Brotherhood is "some people's expectation [and] some people's fear," Daley acknowledged that the situation in Egypt is largely out of American control.

Obama's new position, while not totally surprising, is worrisome to many. "The White House appears to be leaving Hosni Mubarak, an ally for three decades and lynchpin of Mideast stability, twisting slowly in the wind," writes David Horowitz of the Freedom Center. "And worse, it appears to be open to allowing the Muslim Brotherhood to play a key role in a 'reformed' Egyptian government, as long as the organization renounces violence and supports democracy. If the Obama White House really believes this is possible, it is even more hopelessly incompetent than we imagined!"

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, with 600,000 members, is not on official U.S. terrorism lists, as are Hamas and Hizbullah, but the American government has had no contact with it because of what Gibbs said were "questions over its commitment to the rule of law, democracy and nonviolence."
It stands for the re-establishment of the Islamic Empire (Caliphate), the takeover, spiritually or otherwise, of the entire world, and jihad and martyrdom. It has front organizations in the UK, France, and the United States.

A former Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations, Dr. Dore Gold, writes of a fear that the Muslim Brotherhood, widely seen as having become moderate over the years, will "exploit a figure like [Mohammed] ElBaradei in order to hijack the Egyptian revolution at a later stage." Gold noted that ever since the Brotherhood was founded over 80 years ago, it has engaged in political terrorism, assassinating Prime Minister Mahmoud al-Nuqrashi Pasha in 1948, trying to kill President Abdul Nasser several years later, and more.

"A former Kuwaiti Minister of Education, Dr. Ahmad Al-Rab'i, argued in Al-Sharq al-Awsat on July 25, 2005 that the founders of most modern terrorist groups in the Middle East emerged from 'the mantle' of the Muslim Brotherhood," Gold writes.
Even Leslie Gelb, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, says that the prospect of the Muslim Brotherhood's rise to power "would be calamitous for U.S. security The [Brotherhood] supports Hamas and other terrorist groups, makes friendly noises to Iranian dictators and torturers, would be uncertain landlords of the critical Suez Canal, and opposes the Egyptian-Israeli agreement of 1979, widely regarded as the foundation of peace in the Mideast. Above all, the [Brotherhood] would endanger counter terrorism efforts in the region and worldwide The real danger is that our experts, pundits and professors will talk the Arab and American worlds into believing we can all trust the [Brotherhood]..."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142101

Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


30 posted 02-05-2011 12:48 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



      I don't need convincing that these are difficult people.

      That was my point above.

      The question is, what do you do with difficult people?  The avenues that I believe you're suggesting have all been explored.  Apparently, these folks thrive on that sort of treatment; and gather followers, and grow from it.

     In terms of the issues, what is it that you suggest that is distinct from the ways that The Muslim Brotherhood and their upsetting ilk have been dealt with before?  And what outcome do you desire?

     Is there an outcome that you believe you might be able to settle on in common with these folks?  

     I'm not sure that it's possible, myself, but it is at least theoretically.
    
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


31 posted 02-05-2011 04:57 AM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Actually Denise, it's patently obvious that your country can never get it right. It's an impossible juggling act, and I think your government do better than most at keeping the balls in the air.  Certainly the present lot are doing better than the last lot.

And seeing as Mike is taking the thread back to the inevitable 'Bama Bashing, here's some stickers for you:
http://www.cafepress.co.uk/landoverbaptist/646012

Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


32 posted 02-05-2011 07:08 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

'Bama Bashing? Michael shared a news article stating the actions of the current U.S. Administration in this situation. That doesn't constitute bashing.

Please, Rob. Let's not go there, shall we?

I found the content in your link offensive. Would you please remove it or have it removed?  This isn't the venue for it.

Bob, there is nothing on which I could agree with the MB, unless of course they changed their very essence. They should remain an illegal group in Egypt and shouldn't be given a seat at the table in the formation of a new government. If the day comes when they renounce their goals of the destruction of Israel and the instituion of a world wide caliphate, and that can be verified, then and only then should they be allowed any input in a legitimate government, in my opinion.

Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


33 posted 02-05-2011 08:17 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
They should remain an illegal group in Egypt and shouldn't be given a seat at the table in the formation of a new government.


Or they could have a democratic vote and let the Egyptians decide who they want at the table.

.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


34 posted 02-05-2011 08:53 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't agree, Craig. A group that espouses an agenda that is destabilizing to the region shouldn't be allowed a foothold.
Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


35 posted 02-05-2011 09:05 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas

You mean that democracy and a free vote is fine as long as you get to pick who people can and can't vote for?

That's what got Egypt into this mess in the first place.


Jack
.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


36 posted 02-05-2011 10:29 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


There are eighty million in Egypt.
How representative is what's happening of them?

How supportive should we be of free elections if they would lead to putting
in power men who think there's a Jew behind
every tree?

.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


37 posted 02-05-2011 11:27 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

And that those found behind any tree, or breathing air anywhere, should be slaughtered.

I believe that a democratic vote should be held. I don't believe that anyone should be eligible to be on the ballot if they have a destabilizing agenda or have links to terroists, or who espouse the agenda of terrorists. And the U.S. shoudn't be lending its support to any group that does.
Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


38 posted 02-05-2011 12:28 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


So you believe that the people of Egypt will freely vote for Jew hating maniacal terrorists who will wage war against Israel and the US?

Fine - that's the price of democracy - people get to choose the leaders and policies that they support.

Do you think denying them the right to choose would work?

In 2005 88 seats in the Egyptian government were won members of the Muslim Brotherhood,granted they had to stand as independents because the Muslim Brotherhood is banned as a political party but they won nonetheless.

.
moonbeam
Deputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 TourDeputy Moderator 1 Tour
Member Elite
since 12-24-2005
Posts 2038


39 posted 02-05-2011 04:25 PM       View Profile for moonbeam   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for moonbeam

Denise

You found my link "offensive"? - please tell me you are joking!  It was a link to a site supported by one of the most hilarious parody sites on the net - devoted to a very humourous, and patently utterly ridiculous, satire of what Wikipedia calls the "Religious Right" in the US.  On reflection the online store was a bit tacky maybe, but the main forums are a riot:
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/

In stark contrast Mike posted a link to a right wing Religious Zionist network that doesn't even have a licence to broadcast from the Israeli government, and that, far from having pretensions to humour and satire, is actually serious about the right wing twaddle it peddles.  I'm the one who should be "offended" here.

Do we really have to have thread after thread in the Alley reduced to pitiful attempts to rubbish Obama.  

The author of Mike's link draws the headline "Obama Stands by Muslim Brotherhood Endorsement" and a whole anti-Obama article simply from the words "Robert Gibbs said Egypt's new government will have to include a "whole host of important non-secular actors."

Oh wait, maybe I'm mistaken - perhaps Arutz Sheva IS run by a bunch of left wing comedians.  

Phew, that's alright then.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


40 posted 02-05-2011 05:08 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think they should have a choice from a list of candidates without ties to terrorists and without those who espouse a similar agenda. Surely they can find a slate of candidates to choose from without those elements.

Presenting the facts of what this current administration is doing is not trashing Obama, Rob. It's presenting the facts. If he isn't coming out and standing strongly against MB participation in the new government but instead issues a statement that the new government will have to include "a whole host of non-secular actors", then he is endorsing MB participation by default, because they are currently being included in the ongoing talks, and he is not going to bring any influence to bear against those plans.

Some comedy relies exclusively on being offensive. But it's only funny to like-minded folks.
Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


41 posted 02-05-2011 05:39 PM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


So you want the US to dictate to the Egyptian people who they should be able to vote for Denise?

Wouldn't that just be exchanging one oppressive dictator with another?

.
Huan Yi
Member Ascendant
since 10-12-2004
Posts 6334
Waukegan


42 posted 02-05-2011 07:31 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


"So you believe that the people of Egypt will freely vote for Jew hating maniacal terrorists who will wage war against Israel and the US?

Fine - that's the price of democracy - people get to choose the leaders and policies that they support."


Like Germany in the 30's?
Well, that makes sense . . .


.
Bob K
Member Elite
since 11-03-2007
Posts 3860


43 posted 02-06-2011 01:05 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I'm once more left in the dust.

     Democracy is Okay for the United States.

     Democracy is not Okay for Egypt.

     The reason Democracy is not Okay for Egypt is because Germany made a terrible decision in an election back in 1933.  

     The sole reason for WWII is the 1933 Election?

     The world wide depression and the treaty of versailles had nothing to do with it?

     If you so disbelieve in Democracy, what do you believe we should have in its place?

     In the meantime, we really don't get a vote in the Egyptian elections.  The stuff that we've done to influence the vote has already been done.  If we are so very worried about muslim extremism there, then what does that say about how we evaluate our effect on the muslim countries in the middle east and our foreign policy there?  I'm not even so sure it speaks so well about our foreign policy vis-a-vis Israel and its situation in the middle east.

     I can say that I'm very happy that nobody's gotten completely wiped out in the past 60 years or so, and I think that we deserve at least some credit for that.  I also believe that we deserve some blame for there being no resolution to the state of terror and hostility.

     If we're going to buy into the one, the other sort of comes along for the ride, either way.

     I still think that Democracy is Okay for Egypt.  

     Egypt doesn't get to say who we keep off our ballots here, though they can affect things with money contributions and intelligence work, same as we can there, as long as they don't get too ridiculous about it.  That's reality.  To think we can do more than that, or should in Egypt is simply asking for more trouble and turning more power over to those who hate us.

     That's what I think.

Essorant
Member Elite
since 08-10-2002
Posts 4689
Regina, Saskatchewan; Canada


44 posted 02-06-2011 03:06 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant


Maybe most groups/movements in that part of the world are not "perfect" and are involved in some violence and extreme in one way or another?   And yet we are not allowed to find any good in them?    

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgtryj_mohammed-badie-supreme-guide-of-the-muslim-brotherhood_news

"The era of dictatorship is over.  This is the age of people-power.  Anyone who wants to wake up will see the reality seen by these people.   Whoever prefers to continue sleeping will be overtaken by them." - Mohammed Badie, supreme guide of the Muslim Brotherhood

Extremist?  

I don't know.  But maybe we should listen and try to understand more instead of being so eager to call people things like that.
 
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


45 posted 02-06-2011 08:45 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If U.S. monetary aid is conditioned upon those working to form the new government not considering non-secular elements with extremist Islamic ties, then those elements would not get on the ballot. One can only assume that the current administration is not bringing that influence to bear, has no intention of doing so and therefore has no problem with non-secular elements gaining a foothold. And if they do gain a foothold it won't be long before Egypt goes the way of Iran under Carter.
Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


46 posted 02-06-2011 10:11 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


I suppose that you could try bribing them Denise, like the US did to support Mubarak but , as recent events show, it didn't work then, so what makes you think it'd work this time around?

The people of Egypt are demanding the right to self-determination through free elections. It's highly unlikely that they're going to settle for a mock election dictated by the US simple because you don't think they have the sense to vote for the right people to govern them.

If the US wants to withdraw aid to Egypt - fine - I'm sure there are other nations who'll take advantage and step in to the breach.

Jack
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


47 posted 02-06-2011 10:39 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Must the choice be only between a Mubarak type or a Muslim Bbritherhood type? Can't the free world, via its monetary leverage, insist on candidates who put the personal liberty of the people first and foremost? Maybe then we would garner the respect of the people because we would actually be standing behind the values that we say we stand for.

It's not about the 'sense' that the Egyptians have or don't have. It's about who has the political machinery and money in place to position themselves to win. The MB has the machinery in place but without that money it couldn't happen. Let other countries step into the breach...at least the U.S. wouldn't be responsible for the results.

Uncas
Member
since 07-30-2010
Posts 348


48 posted 02-06-2011 11:41 AM       View Profile for Uncas   Email Uncas   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Uncas


quote:
Must the choice be only between a Mubarak type or a Muslim Bbritherhood type?


No, and a free election assures that it won't be, it'll be an election where the choices are the good, the bad and the ugly where the most popular wins.

quote:
Can't the free world, via its monetary leverage, insist on candidates who put the personal liberty of the people first and foremost?


No, why not put the liberty and people first and foremost by letting them make up their own minds about who they want to lead them. What you're suggesting is the exact opposite of Democracy, why is their freedom to choose any less important than yours?

quote:
The MB has the machinery in place but without that money it couldn't happen.


History doesn't agree with you, the French revolution, the Russian revolution, the Solidarity movement it Poland, the Egyptian protests themselves and even your own revolution proves that money and power and all the political machinery you can muster doesn't add up to squat if the people are against you.

If the people of Egypt want the MB to govern them it's going to happen. I think that if they were on an open and free ballot they'd win a few seats but not overall control, like they did as independents in 2005. If you try to shut them out they'll win the same number of seats but they'll be able to claim that they were a 'suppressed majority' and point to their suppression as another example of American interference and meddling in middle-eastern affairs. Just like they did in 2005, only this time the evidence would be out there for everyone to see.
Denise
Moderator
Member Seraphic
since 08-22-99
Posts 23002


49 posted 02-06-2011 01:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I hope you are right, Chirpy! I truly do.
 
 Post A Reply Post New Topic   Go to the Next Oldest/Previous Topic Return to Topic Page Go to the Next Newest Topic 
All times are ET (US) Top
  User Options
>> Discussion >> The Alley >> I Don't Get It   [ Page: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ] Format for Better Printing EMail to a Friend Not Available
Print Send ECard

 

pipTalk Home Page | Main Poetry Forums

How to Join | Member's Area / Help | Private Library | Search | Contact Us | Today's Topics | Login
Discussion | Tech Talk | Archives | Sanctuary



© Passions in Poetry and netpoets.com 1998-2013
All Poetry and Prose is copyrighted by the individual authors