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Passions in Poetry

Girl With Nose Cut Off On Time Mag Cover

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Juju
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25 posted 08-10-2010 05:19 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

So sad... I heard that,
\\


Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Grinch
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26 posted 08-10-2010 06:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Sharia law will also now be legal in Kenya, thanks in part to the push for it and dollars from Obama. Way to go. Does this make sense to anybody?


Presumably it makes perfect sense to the people who voted for it Denise, are they right? You can have an opinion either way but at the end of the day it was their choice and they made it. The money America spent? It simply went towards advertising the fact that the choice existed.

.
Denise
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27 posted 08-10-2010 09:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I wonder if the women were allowed to vote on it?

Should people even be given such choices if one choice is something that includes the subjucation, mistreatment, mutilation and murder of women?

The money from Obama was spent to advertise and promote and push hard for the YES vote, not simply to advertise a choice.

Why?
JenniferMaxwell
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28 posted 08-10-2010 09:41 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Yes, women in Kenya can vote.

More about the Constitution:

“The new constitution will bring about the changes Kenyans want in a number of ways. To reduce the power of politicians and keep a check on presidential powers, Parliament will be divided into the Senate and the National Assembly. Independent bodies will audit public finances and review land rights. The president's powers will be limited making him accountable and voters can recall members of Parliament if they are not doing their job adequately.  The cabinet will be halved, with all the ministers drawn from outside parliament for the first time and there will be no post of prime minister.

One change that will bring a sigh of relief to many road users of Kenya is the construction of better roads and provision of health and water services to all in the poorer areas. These will be funded through the 15 percent of the national budget  that will go to the regional counties and the creation of a new Equalization Fund. Kenya’s politicians will have to start paying taxes on their salaries and allowances, which will fill Kenya Revenue Authority’s coffers with an estimated Sh700 million per annum. In addition, dual citizenship will be allowed as will the right to emergency treatment for all at any Kenyan hospital.

A fair representation of both sexes and people from different ethnic backgrounds in the cabinet and the civil service will be another welcome change. Women will have more rights under this new constitution giving married couples equal rights, including property rights. According to Grace Maingi, the Executive Director of FIDA (Federation of Women Lawyers), “the new constitution is a very big gain for women” She also said that,” Finally, Kenyan women will be allowed to effectively participate in the decision-making of this country’s affairs.”
http://www.helium.com/items/1918091-kenyas-new-constitution-a-change-for-the-better
Juju
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29 posted 08-10-2010 09:55 PM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

oh yah Im sure I would vote for my self to be stoned..... I bet there is no inforcement of laws about men getting muttlated when they rape or cheet. sheesh.

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

JenniferMaxwell
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30 posted 08-10-2010 10:10 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Men are also stoned and mutilated.
Denise
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31 posted 08-10-2010 11:09 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Unbelievable.
Balladeer
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32 posted 08-11-2010 01:48 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Unbelieveable is the perfect word, Denise. You have my complete agreement there...
Bob K
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33 posted 08-11-2010 02:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


      "Everything" includes exactly what for you, Denise?

     "Since the custom of mutilation is not confined to Afghanistan, are you suggesting we declare war against all countries that practice it?  Are you suggesting the death penalty for those beasts that iunfluct it?

     Having worked on psych units in this country, I've known women who've been mutilated by the men in their lives.  This sort of thing happens here and it is not confined to Muslim countries, and the mutilations are not confined to the ones you've seen.  What do you suggest?

     Attaching the idiocy to sharia sidesteps the issue of violence against women, which is common to all cultures that I know of, and in some cultures is so institutionalized that the women themselves take part in it.  For example, Female genital mutilation is traditionally a female on female custom, though these days a male physician will sometimes become involved.  That custom, as with the mutilations you speak about, are not unique to Muslims, tyhey are frequently local cultural customs that have gotten enshrined in religious custom along the way.

     None of which makres the customs right to my mind.

[Edited - Ron] We have our own issues with women's rights and violence against women in this country, including the occasional mutilation.  By and large the conversation here is just that — conversation — but it more than occasionally gets out of hand, and issues such as rape and assault against women are very high here.

     The Muslim world by and large prides itself on the degree of respect with which it treats its women, and women who by and large coinform to the laws of the Muslim culture.  

     This does not suggest that the various stories about Mudslim violence toward women are wrong.  It does suggest that the general information available here about women in Muslim culture is studiously one-sided.

     I myself am not sure exactly how to evaluate the whole story and where to put emphasis on the overall picture.

[This message has been edited by Ron (08-11-2010 07:51 AM).]

Balladeer
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34 posted 08-11-2010 07:31 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Attaching the idiocy to sharia sidesteps the issue of violence against women

Actually, attaching the idiocy to violence against women sidesteps the issue of it being condoned and permissable by sharia law, which is basically what this thread refers to. It is not only about violence to women, which occurs in every country in the world, rather about a religion that allows and condones it.

Criticizing America, where it occurs illegally and the perpetrators convicted as criminals, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Referring to men being stoned and abused makes even less sense.

I have a hard time understanding even why these references are made. I expect it in a left vs. right thread but, in a non-political topic simply about women being mutilated in accordance with the policies of a religion, which is how this thread began, I can't believe that everyone would simply not be in agreement here and declare it as barbaric. If it can't happen on a topic like this, I can't imagine it happening on any topic that could ever be brought up for discussion here.

JenniferMaxwell
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35 posted 08-11-2010 09:06 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Opening statement in thread:
“Think that changed any minds?”

Request for clarifiication:
“Changed minds about what?”

Response to that request:
Nothing

Second request for clarification:
"Changed any minds about what, John?"

Response to that request:
Nothing

Third request for clarification:
“If not, then changed any minds about what, pray tell?”

Response to that request:
Nothing

Outcome:
A far reaching and rather informative discussion. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

We were not asked to limit the discussion to whether or not, in our opinion, the act was barbaric.

Referring to men being stoned and mutilated was a response to “I bet there is no inforcement of laws about men getting muttlated when they rape or cheet. sheesh.”

Juju
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36 posted 08-11-2010 10:53 AM       View Profile for Juju   Email Juju   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Juju's Home Page   View IP for Juju

Its all fun and games until it's your kid, someone you love. Then it is racism, bigotry,male shovenist, and well the story goes on doesn't it.

-Juju

-Juju

-"So you found a girl
Who thinks really deep thoughts
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts " Silent all these Years, Tori Amos

Denise
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37 posted 08-11-2010 11:47 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, I wasn't talking about war or death penalties, Bob. By 'everything' I simply meant that we should do as much, and with as much gusto, to get Sharia defeated or abolished around the world as Obama did to get the Yes referendum in favor of Sharia passed in Kenya.

Again, why did he do that? Why would he do that?

Government sanctioned or Religion sanctioned barbarism and brutality is not comparable to domestic abuse, as Michael stated. The one is 'according to law', the other is 'against the law'. I think therein lies the difference between barbarians and civilized people.

Imam Rauf, of Ground Zero Mosque fame, wants the US to be Sharia compliant.

Take a hike, Rauf.
JenniferMaxwell
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38 posted 08-11-2010 12:29 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Many countries consider us barbaric because we execute criminals, including some with diminished capacity, suffering from mental illness, or, up until just a few years ago juveniles, or those whose crimes were committed when they were juveniles. Barbaric, civilized or not? And some of the methods of execution we have used - gas chamber, electrocution, hanging - barbaric, civilized or not?


“Imam Rauf, of Ground Zero Mosque fame, wants the US to be Sharia compliant.” - Denise

Perhaps a quote or source would add credibility to that claim.


Ground Zero Mosque Opposition: The Paranoia About Sharia Law

“As Serwer goes on to say, this basically boils down to whether you accept that Faisal Abdul Rauf, the imam behind the so-called "Ground Zero mosque" -- after having a long career building interfaith bridges with the stated intention of out-competing Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda death cult for the hearts and minds of young Muslims -- has now accidentally tipped his hand to the secret plot to destroy America that he's been hiding all along. (If only he'd been smart enough to call the proposed center "The Newt Gingrich House of Pancakes!")

And then, if all that is true, you have to imagine that somehow, it's even possible for Sharia law to be imposed somehow on America. One need only look at how difficult it is for a global superpower to impose Western democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan to see how foolish an idea that is. From my perch inside the Beltway, I find it hard to believe that the "Impose Sharia Law Act of 2011" wins Ben Nelson's vote in the Senate. I suppose it could be done through sorcery, but al Qaeda will really have to step up its game, from crotch-based incendiary discharges, to make that work.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/03/ground-zero-mosque-opposi_n_668955.html

Essorant
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39 posted 08-11-2010 01:01 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

quote:
the issue of it being condoned and permissable by sharia law



I don't think it is right to attribute it to Sharia Law (in general), because how people interpret/use Sharia Law differs among Muslims.   ALL muslims as I understand believe in Sharia Law, but they differ among themselves as to what belongs to it.  

Are such extremes native to Sharia Law itself?  I don't believe so.   I believe these are extents that extremists groups take Sharia Law, not extents that are stipulated by Sharia Law itself.  The majority of Muslims don't use Sharia Law for violence, even though all Muslims apparently believe in some form of Sharia Law.  

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40 posted 08-11-2010 01:07 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Referring to men being stoned and mutilated was a response to “I bet there is no inforcement of laws about men getting muttlated when they rape or cheet. sheesh.”

Is it your statement then, Jenn, that me DO get mutilated by enforcement of laws when they rape or cheat?
JenniferMaxwell
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41 posted 08-11-2010 01:41 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

My understanding is that stoning for adultery applies to both men and women and is allowed as punishment for the crime of rape or murder. Mutilation, cutting off fingers or hands is a punishment that may be given for serious theft, or repeated acts of theft, thus my response "Men are also stoned and mutilated."
Huan Yi
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42 posted 08-11-2010 01:56 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


#10


.
Denise
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43 posted 08-11-2010 02:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:


Whenever Feisal first considered building a mosque across from Ground Zero, he had the idea firmly in mind by 2004, when he wrote What’s Right with Islam. The book was translated into many languages. In Indonesia’s Bahasa, its title translates as “The Call from the WTC Rubble.” Rauf promoted the book in December 2007 at a Kuala Lumpur gathering of Hizb ut Tahrir (20) — an organization banned in Germany since 2003, and also outlawed in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia, among other places — and ideologically akin to the MB. Both seek to replace the U.S. Constitution with Islamic law (sharia), and eventually impose Islam and sharia law worldwide. Most North American MB organizations avoid widely publicizing that aim. The HT however, at a July 2009 Khalifah conference at a suburban Chicago Hilton, openly promised to replace capitalism with Islam and sharia law (21).
Feisal Rauf supports sharia law, too.

Described in one Asian report as an Egyptian citizen living in the U.S., he has repeatedly stated, and writes in his 2004 book, that the U.S. Constitution is sharia-compliant. The “American Constitution and system of governance uphold the core principles of Islamic law,” Rauf wrote in his book. The “American political structure is Shariah-compliant,” he contends, since Muslim jurists over the centuries have “defined five areas of life” to be protected by Islamic law — life, mind, religion, property, and family. Only two further actions could render the U.S. more Islamic than it is already, Rauf contends:

[Inviting] voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation’s practical life, [and allowing] religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws (22).

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-ground-zero-mosque-developer-muslim-brotherhood-roots-radical-dreams/?singlepage=true
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44 posted 08-11-2010 03:59 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


I'm in favour of the Sharia courts as laid out in the Kenyan constitution. I'm also in favour of a similar judicial system being set up in the UK to run in conjunction with the existing system, a suggestion that  was recently proposed. After reading the details of the proposals, both in Kenya and the UK, I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about. Unless, of course, it's because there are some people who don't understand the proposals who are intent on screaming about death, destruction and the end of the world as we know it.

I'm almost surprised that they haven't used the label 'Death Panels' yet.

.
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45 posted 08-11-2010 04:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My understanding is that stoning for adultery applies to both men and women and is allowed as punishment for the crime of rape or murder. Mutilation, cutting off fingers or hands is a punishment that may be given for serious theft, or repeated acts of theft, thus my response "Men are also stoned and mutilated."

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, Jennifer. When you say "my understanding", what do you base that understanding on? Is it from some information you have found somewhere? If so, where?

The female subject of the thread was mutilated due to trying to get away from an abusive relationship. Your example discusses rape, murder, serious theft or repeated acts of theft. Do you have any example of a man being mutilated for the reason the girl on Time was mutilated for?  If not, can you explain the connection of a man being mutilated for a major crime with that of a female being mutilated for running from abuse? I'd be interested in knowing how you consider them similar, since you use the word "also".

I can state as fact that, if my sister were to have her ears cut off for leaving an abusive husband and someone were to say to me, "Well, men get punished, too", I would have something to say to that individual.
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46 posted 08-11-2010 04:52 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


I like what a Canadian once said in an interview about her country’s attitude.  She said, rather
apologetically, that while they acknowledged it was a good cause they had not suffered
such casualties since the Korean War and simply weren’t ready to suffer them again.
Another way of saying it could be that Canadians are not willing to lose their sons so
some other country’s daughters can keep their noses.  I like that because it’s far
more honest.

Why die for Danzig?

.
Mysteria
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47 posted 08-11-2010 05:11 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Grinch, I agree with you 100%  I think the new constitution is a step in the right direction, and am so glad it went through without violence.

I am disappointed however, in that here we go again using the net and its "newsworthy" propaganda to influence people on their next voting experience in the States.
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48 posted 08-11-2010 05:56 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

So what Imam Rauf said was not that he “wants the US to be Sharia compliant.” but rather
--"the American political structure is Shariah compliant."
Thanks for that source, Denise.

"[Inviting] voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation’s practical life, [and allowing] religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws (22)."
Wish the full quote had been posted..


I'm trying to understand where you are coming from, Jennifer. When you say "my understanding", what do you base that understanding on? Is it from some information you have found somewhere? If so, where? - Balladeer

I read it on Fox News

“Two men convicted of adultery were stoned to death in northeastern Iran last month but a third convicted man managed to escape, Iran's judiciary spokesman said Tuesday.

Ali Reza Jamshidi said the stoning took place in the city of Mashhad in late December but did not provide the names of the convicted men.

Under Iran's Islamic law, adultery is punishable by stoning, but such sentences are rare. International human rights groups have long criticized stoning in Iran as a cruel form of punishment.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479752,00.html

Maybe this will help your understanding, Balladeer. "Men are also stoned and mutilated."  was an in passing comment meant to point out that men and women, not just women, have been/are being stoned and mutilated for certain crimes and acts.

Yep, Mysteria, definitely a step in the right direction. I think Obama was right in supporting the new constitution.

Denise
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49 posted 08-11-2010 07:14 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think there is sufficient evidence, Grinch, of the evil done around the world, especially to women, in the name of Sharia. They are the ones who suffer most under that system. If any group, either religious or governmental bureaucracy, has the power to make decisions that affect the lives, literally, of people, yeah, I would call them death panels.

How is having Sharia elevated to legal status in Kenya a step in the right direction, Sharon and Jennifer? Was there something deficient in their secular legal system that Sharia enhanced?

Obama did more than 'support' it. He funded the VOTE YES campaign for Sharia and abortion to the tune of $23 million. And I'm sure that $23 million goes much further there than in Western economies. That's quite a bit of support. Why do you think he was right in doing it? What justification could there possibly be for him doing it, as opposed to supporting the side that didn't want Sharia to have equal footing with secular law?

And why are voices opposed to this characterized as "using the net and its "newsworthy" propaganda to influence people on their next voting experience in the States."

You left part of it out, Jennifer:

quote:
Only two further actions could render the U.S. more Islamic than it is already, Rauf contends:

[Inviting] voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation’s practical life, [and allowing] religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws (22).


We're not quite there yet. He said this to groups advocating for Sharia in the U.S. and one of those things is for religious communities to have more leeway in using their own laws. For Islam that is Sharia.

You can't have two laws reigning in a nation on equal footing. One or the other will have to have the upper hand. If Sharia is given legal status in the U.S., then the U.S. laws will be subordinate to Sharia relative to Muslims, with all its potential horrors. There will be one law for one group and another for the others. The only benefit will be to the clerics and 'aggrieved' husbands, fathers and brothers who engage in stoning and honor killings. They will be 'protected' by the legal status given to Sharia.

 
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