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Passions in Poetry

"Why I Was Angry"

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JenniferMaxwell
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0 posted 08-04-2010 10:56 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“The specifics of the debate last week should be an example of an issue beyond partisan dispute. The bill in question was created to help the thousands of citizens who went to ground zero after the Sept. 11 attacks. These are Americans who wanted to help, and who scientific studies now show are falling ill and dying in troubling numbers.”

“It was frustrating to hear Republicans say these people didn’t deserve more help because, as one put it, “people get killed all the time.” Others called it another big entitlement program. Some said it was a giveaway to New York, or complained that the bill would have been paid for by closing a tax loophole. We responded to each of these arguments over the summer in the hours of hearings and markups of the bill. And the answers are pretty simple.”

“The truth is that this is a limited program, with a cap, because it is restricted to 9/11 responders and others directly affected by the toxic substances. As we all remember, the victims of ground zero dust came from all over the nation — they weren’t just New Yorkers”


“Playing politics on important issues is never right. But on health care for 9/11 responders, it’s an outrage.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/opinion/04weiner.html?_r=2&hp

[Edit - fixed another broken title - Ron]

[This message has been edited by Ron (08-07-2010 10:50 PM).]

Denise
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1 posted 08-04-2010 11:05 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If they want good stuff passed without opposition they shouldn't attach garbage in the same bill along with the good stuff. Their success rate would be better, I'm sure.
JenniferMaxwell
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2 posted 08-04-2010 11:14 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Here's a summary of the Bill. Which part of it is the "garbage"?

2/4/2009--Introduced.James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act of 2009 - Amends the Public Health Service Act to establish within the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health the World Trade Center Health Program (WTC program) to provide:

(1) medical monitoring and treatment benefits to eligible emergency responders and recovery and cleanup workers who responded to the World Trade Center terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001; and
(2) initial health evaluation, monitoring, and treatment benefits to residents and other building occupants and area workers who were directly impacted and adversely affected by such attacks. Requires the WTC program administrator to:
(1) implement a quality assurance program;
(2) establish the WTC Health Program Scientific/Technical Advisory Committee;
(3) establish the WTC Responders Steering Committee and the WTC Community Program Steering Committee;
(4) provide for education and outreach on services under the WTC program;
(5) provide for the uniform collection of data related to WTC-related health conditions;
(6) conduct research on physical and mental health conditions that may be related to the September 11 terrorist attacks; and
(7) extend and expand arrangements with the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene to provide for the World Trade Center Health Registry. Authorizes the administrator to make grants to the Department to address mental health needs relating to the terrorist attacks.Amends the Air Transportation Safety and System Stabilization Act to:
(1) make individuals eligible for compensation under the September 11 Victim Compensation Fund of 2001 for harm as a result of debris removal; and
(2) extend the deadline for making a claim for compensation

Denise
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3 posted 08-04-2010 11:35 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Items that were attached other than those relating to the WTC issues, Jen. I don't recall right now what they were, but those other items were the reason why some were opposed to the bill.
JenniferMaxwell
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4 posted 08-04-2010 11:36 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

If you should find them, I'd really appreciate a link when you have the time. Thanks!
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5 posted 08-04-2010 01:54 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I heard it on the news, Jen, don't have a link and don't plan on googling it to try to find one. If your are interested I guess you could research it.
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6 posted 08-04-2010 03:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I heard somewhere that they voted against it because it was really a communist plot to funnel money into a terrorist group of left wing lesbian Muslims based in Kenya who had clear links with Al Qaeda and pro-abortion extremists.

Here’s a link – check it out yourself.
http://piptalk.com/pip/Forum6/HTML/002050.html#6


Ringo
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7 posted 08-04-2010 09:33 PM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Perhaps it was voted down because it had no provisions for the responders to the Oklahoma City bombing which were required to work through the hazardous materials and unhealthy air conditions at that particular crime scene.

I realize that Timothy McVie and Terry Nichols only killed 168 people; however, they did damage 324 buildings and caused a minimum $652 million in damages. There were also in excess of 12,000 people involved in relief and rescue efforts in the days following.
It was also the largest federally investigated crime until 9/11 with 28,000 interviews, 3.5 short tons of evidence, and nearly 1,000,000,000 pieces of information collected.
There were absolutely NO federal funds allocated to assist the people who were affected by this act of terrorist violence.
Messages of sympathy were received from England, the PLO, Canada, Australia, Russia, the UN, the European Union, and India. IRAN, of all possible countries, condemned the attack, The Kuwaiti Parliament condemned it. France offered a special rescue unit to assist, Israel assisted a special anti-terrorist unit to assist.
In the aftermath, several pieces of legislation were passed to assist in preventing this from happening again, as well as to increase the penalties for anyone doing so.

Or, have we forgotten?

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Bob K
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8 posted 08-05-2010 05:28 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Pretty silly reason to vote it down, don't you think?

     Talk about the perfect being the enemy of the good!

      Would you vote it down for a reason like that?  I wouldn't.  If such a bill is desired, why not propose one, either as an addition to the bill that was defeated, or as a separate bill?  I'd support it.

     I suspect that it's another program like cap and trade, one the Republicans ran on and publicly supported with statements from both the Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates in 2008, and one which the same two people have spoken against in scathing terms in the months since.

     Nothing's too good for our first responders on 9/12 according to the Republicans in power, while the same Republican legislators are voting against the same heroic first responders now, even if its a program that was originally a Republican idea.  

     I'm reminded of a joke I first heard about the 1956 Israeli/ Egyptian war.  

     An Israeli tank and an Egyptian tank accidentally collide during a tank battle in the Sinai desert.  The Egyptians immediately pile out of their T-34s with their hands in the air, yelling "I surrender!  I surrender!"

     Meanwhile the Israelis are piling out of their tanks, hands grasping the backs of their necks, shouting "Whiplash!  Whiplash!"

     Watching the Republican back and forth on many of their positions these days  reminds me of the Israelis in that joke.

     "Whiplash!  Whiplash!"  That's the feeling I get watching the contradictory positions being taken.  I only wish I though the joke was funnier these days.
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9 posted 08-05-2010 07:33 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

Bob- I absolutely agree that the 9/11 responders deserve any assistance they can get... and I very seriously doubt that is why they were denied... I would actually hope not... I was simply making a point about how people are selective about the people they care about, and tend to forget anything that isn't this week's news.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

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10 posted 08-05-2010 07:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Denise is right. Before jumping to conclusions, it would be best to read the entire bill. There is nothing new about sneaking in things known to raise public ire onto a bill that people would agree with. It's an old tactic.

If someone wants to criticize, they should be thorough enough to investigate the bill in it's entirety and present it.
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11 posted 08-05-2010 08:06 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Here's a list of all related bills. That's as much homework as I'm going to do for someone else. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-847&tab=related


12 republicans voted for it and 4 democrats  voted against it. http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2010-491


Here's an interesting sidenote:
The bill has no cost estimate yet. A similar bill introduced in the House of Representatives in February would cost $12 billion, said the latest bill’s main sponsor, Senator Kirsten E. Gillibrand, Democrat of New York.

The House bill, which also bears Detective Zadroga’s name, is currently in committee. Meanwhile, questions linger as to whether he was a Sept. 11 victim.

Detective Zadroga, 34, worked on the rescue and recovery efforts at ground zero for about three weeks after the Sept. 11 attack. Later, his family said, he began experiencing flulike symptoms and difficulty breathing — common symptoms in first responders that doctors called the “World Trade Center cough.” He died in January 2006 at his parents’ home in Ocean County, N.J.

In April 2006, a report on an autopsy by the Ocean County medical examiner’s office concluded that Detective Zadroga’s death was a direct result of his rescue activities at the trade center site. As a result, for 18 months he was widely cited as the first to die from inhaling dust and particles at ground zero.

But that judgment was called into question in October 2007, when the New York medical examiner concluded that Detective Zadroga’s death was not caused by toxic trade center dust at all. Instead, the medical examiner, Dr. Charles S. Hirsch, said it was a result of injecting ground-up prescription drugs. At the time, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg cited the finding as an example of unpopular science and said Detective Zadroga was “not a hero” — remarks he later retracted, with an apology to the family. The mayor and the police commissioner added Detective Zadroga’s name to the Wall of Heroes at 1 Police Plaza last year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/25/nyregion/25zadroga.html
JenniferMaxwell
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12 posted 08-05-2010 10:55 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I am truly shocked by some of the responses in this thread.


“If someone wants to criticize, they should be thorough enough to investigate the bill in it's entirety and present it.” - Balladeer

Someone did criticize, claimed there was “garbage” attached to the bill, but when asked what that garbage was, didn’t have a clue. Another poster speculated on why 155 Republicans and 4 Democrats voted against the bill and then when challenged, backtracked, stating he seriously doubted his speculation was true.  And this morning another poster quotes from a article more than a year old  that (a) trashes a first responder and (b) would lead a casual reader to believe there was no cost estimate for the bill.


http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/worke   r-safety/111375-health-bill-for-911-first-responders-gets-floor-vote-despite-cost-concerns

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/nyregion/26autopsy.html?ref=charles_s_hirsch[/URL]  
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13 posted 08-05-2010 02:04 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
Before jumping to conclusions, it would be best to read the entire bill. There is nothing new about sneaking in things known to raise public ire onto a bill that people would agree with. It's an old tactic.


I read the bill Mike, I couldn’t find anything untoward in it.

It didn’t pass because the Republicans didn’t want to give the Dems bragging rights to claim that they’d passed a piece of popular legislation. So they announced that they were going to propose an amendment that the cost came out of the allocation for Health Care instead of a from a levy on foreign companies doing business in the US, knowing that the Dems couldn’t vote for that and the Republicans could then claim that the Dems were blocking the legislation. They said they ‘might’ vote for it if the amendment was included, that’s politician speak for “If the other side goes for it we’ll probably vote against it”. The Dems, realising that it was an attempt to undermine the health care bill sidestepped it by calling for a vote without amendments – there’s a cost, it requires a two thirds majority, but it forced a straight up or down vote. The Republicans voted against it claiming that it was the Democrats fault for denying any amendments.

I think Weiner was right – it’s a shame.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-efD6wuhHpQ&feature=fvst
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14 posted 08-05-2010 03:00 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Democratic leadership opted for the two-thirds vote specifically to avoid amendments to bar payment for Ground Zero-related health treatment for illegal immigrants, or any measures that would dismantle parts of the major health-care overhaul passed earlier this year.

It's unlikely either topic will fade away.

Another potential area for compromise: crafting a new way to pay for the $7.4 billion measure, other than reapplying a tax on U.S. operations of foreign-registered firms. Many GOP members call that an old-fashioned tax hike, and some Democrats privately say they can scoop up more Republican support if they find another way to pay for the bill.

One potential pick-up from making that change is Buffalo-area Rep. Chris Lee, a Republican. Mr. Lee, who was a co-sponsor of a piece of the bill before he voted against it Thursday, said sick Ground Zero workers "deserve better than being used as a political football.''


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704271804575405680334859208.html

It seems how it would be paid for was the main point of contention.
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15 posted 08-05-2010 03:25 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
It seems how it would be paid for was the main point of contention.


Yes – sort of.

On the face of it the Republicans wanted it to be paid for using money that was allocated for the health care bill to throw a spanner in that legislation and Democrats wanted it to be paid for by foreign companies doing business in the US. That’s not the whole story though. The Republicans knew that the Dems wouldn’t go for the alternate method of payment, they wanted to force the Dems to vote against it and be the dirty rotten scoundrels in the eyes of the electorate. The Dems knew that the Republicans wouldn’t vote for it and give them bragging rights without an amendment on how it would be paid for.

The Dems are happy, they get to call the Republicans the dirty rotten scoundrels, the Republicans are slightly less happy but at least they can blame the Dems for blocking amendments.

The 9/11 responders? Who cares, they’re unimportant – it’s party politics that counts - nobody gives a flying frog for the peons who might be suffering – like Mike said it’s questionable to some people whether they even deserve compensation.

Let them eat cake.

.
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16 posted 08-05-2010 08:24 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

like Mike said it’s questionable to some people whether they even deserve compensation.


Mike said that where?
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17 posted 08-06-2010 12:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Mike said that where?


Here Mike:

quote:
But that judgment was called into question in October 2007, when the New York medical examiner concluded that Detective Zadroga’s death was not caused by toxic trade center dust at all.


And here:

quote:
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg cited the finding as an example of unpopular science and said Detective Zadroga was “not a hero”


Some people, namely Hirsch and Bloomberg, didn’t think Zadroga deserved any compensation.

.
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18 posted 08-06-2010 01:29 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Grinch did not say that a person has a choice in what references he or she uses and what these references say.  I don't know if he wished to make that point explicit.

     But by chosing references that set forward these points of view without offering caveats or coming down more clearly on the critical side of the issue, a writer gives the impression that he does not disagree with the views expressed and is being studiously neutral in an issue which is, at a minimum, a red herring issue.

     While one person may or may not have died from a specific cause which does not have one's political party's backing, there is little if any doubt that other have, and that we, as a nation, are in their debt.  Seeking means of avoiding responsibility for that debt is neither ethical nor honorable for us as a nation.  Republicans might consider getting out front on the issue and pushing for a more aggressive nill to steal the political momentum, if they're concerned.  They could make the Democrats look silly.

     They simply aren't thinking on this one, or their thinking is very bad indeed.
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19 posted 08-06-2010 02:26 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
I don't know if he wished to make that point explicit.


Actually Bob I didn’t.

If Mike wants to argue that he didn’t actually say it, that he was quoting someone else, that’s fine by me. I wasn’t trying to infer that Mike thought they didn’t deserve compensation or that he agreed with the quote he posted, in fact if I were to hazard a guess I think he’d be in favour of compensation. I was simply agreeing with the point he raised – that ‘some’ people believed that it was questionable whether the responders deserved compensation.

You see I don’t think that people voted against the legislation because of a disagreement regarding how it was going to be paid for – that’s a really weak excuse. Once you move away from that argument a couple of obvious alternatives present themselves, they could have voted against it as a political move for instance or they could simply believe that the responders don’t deserve the compensation.

As Mike said (pointed out, highlighted, communicated, referred to) there are folk who think that way.

.
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20 posted 08-06-2010 03:26 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Not many, Grinch, I would venture to say. More than likely, I'd say it was the source for funding of the bill which caused the dissent.
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21 posted 08-06-2010 04:20 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Really Denise.

If they suggested funding it by increasing your income tax by half a percent would you vote against it? Would you vote against it if they suggested putting a tax of half a percent on beer and cigarettes, or air travel or gasoline? Would you weigh up the cost and the method of meeting that cost and vote no knowing that your vote would deny the responders the benefits that the legislation offers?

I sure wouldn’t.

I might say that I thought that there were better ways to pay for it but I’d vote yes every day of the week because I believe they deserve it.

.
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22 posted 08-06-2010 04:30 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Let them fund it with the 461 Billion Dollars of Stimulus money that hasn't been spent yet.
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23 posted 08-06-2010 04:49 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


What 461 Billion Dollars of Stimulus money Denise? You make it sound like the unspent stimulus money actually exists, it doesn’t and it won’t until they need to spend it at which point they’ll borrow the money against government bonds.

Do you mean that they should borrow the money to pay for the responder bill?

I think there are better ways of meeting the cost but heck, if adding more national debt gets you to vote yes, fill your boots.

JenniferMaxwell
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24 posted 08-06-2010 06:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Do teabaggers hate the 9/11 first responders?

"Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the GOP is lining up against the Firefighters and Police Officers who rushed into the Asbestos inferno of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

WHY?

Because it would full paid for by unfairly closing a "tax loophole on foreign companies with U.S. subsidiaries."

NO!  THE HORROR.  WE MUST PROTECT THE FOREIGN CORPORATIONS!!

Anyone want to know who the largest foreign corporations in the USA are??

Yes, everyone's favorite, BP leads the pack. SURPRISE!!

Next is Royal Dutch Shell.  Toyota, Honda,  Nissan and banking giant ING round out the top 5.

The profits of these companies are MORE IMPORTANT to today's GOP than the long term health maintenance of the men and women who put their lives on the line and those who died on September 11, 2001."

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/k/i/kingdzbws/2 010/07/taking-a-stand-against-lazy-91.php?ref=mp

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (08-07-2010 12:44 PM).]

 
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