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Passions in Poetry

"Why I Was Angry"

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Balladeer
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25 posted 08-06-2010 09:49 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Jennifer, for destroying whatever creditability you might have had.
JenniferMaxwell
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26 posted 08-06-2010 10:26 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Is that a personal attack? Reads like one to me. Ron around or are you monitoring the forum?
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27 posted 08-06-2010 11:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Nope, not a personal attack at all, simply an observation of how the comments you make and reprint slandering an entire political party reflect on the creditability of what you say.

When Ron or anyone points out something you decide to post as being garbage, it's the same thing. It doesn't refer to YOU as garbage, simply what you decide to display. Same here...
JenniferMaxwell
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28 posted 08-06-2010 11:39 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Ron attacked the post, you attacked the poster.
Bob K
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29 posted 08-06-2010 11:59 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K


quote:

Thank you, Jennifer, for destroying whatever creditability you might have had.



     Exactly what did the woman do that destroyed her creditability?

     Offering a list of names that might include some of those folks taxed seems to me to offer you a chance to show where she is incorrect.  That would be addressing the facts of the post, by addressing the correctness or incorrectness of her assertions.  That would be worthwhile in terms of the rules of the game, as I understand them.

     If I misunderstand them, please correct me.

     Suggesting that she personally has been totally discredited is a comment on her, directly, without commenting on her position or her point.  This, as I understand it, is a violation of the rules of the game, because it is a comment directly on her without even mentioning the point she is trying to deal with.  

     Do I understand the rules correctly, here, or not?  

[This message has been edited by Bob K (08-07-2010 12:00 AM).]

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30 posted 08-07-2010 12:30 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I believe a more telling example might be that of Halliburton.  Halliburton began business as an American Company and paid taxes as an American Company.  During the Bush Administration, however, it discovered that this was not advantageous to it as a company.  It opened offices in Dubai and Incorporated there.  It is now a company that registers itself not as an American Company, though it does business here, and gets many U.S. government contracts here that should go only to American Companies — at least in my opinion — but it manages to get around American tax laws by doing so.

     It is a large Republican contributor, though I'm sure there must be companies that have similar arrangements with the Democrats.  (Maybe not, I really don't know.)  By closing some of the tax loopholes, it may be possible for the U.S. government to collect some of the taxes that Halliburton may be avoiding.  Or companies that do the same sort of thing in relationship with the Democrats, for all I know.

     The American public is getting ripped off by these tax loopholes to begin with, no matter who's political ally the company may prove to be, and the loopholes should be closed to help prevent undo tax burdens on the public.  Do you believe that Halliburton is going to stop doing business in the United States if they're forced to pay taxes here?  I don't.  They're part of a service industry, and they bid where there are services to be provided and a profit to be made.  They should bid on a level playing field with American companies that are patriotic enough not to try top flee overseas and who are willing to pay the taxes that the Governments asks Businesses here to pay.

     Should you wish to find other examples than Halliburton, the examples that Jennifer raised are not bad ones.  BP does business here in the United States and should pay the appropriate taxes here. They are getting a lot of money from the US government in terms of rebates that we might also not be paying them.

     In fact, why should we pay them money to sell us gasoline at all?  What advantage to we get from this odd arrangement?

     Bringing up the issue seems valid enough to me.

     Bringing the issue up, however, seems to be secondary to the issue at hand.  

     The bill is to take care of first responders who have fallen ill as a result of being first responders.  The Republicans, by and large, have scuttled the bill.  We are talking about the bill, but no Republican in the meantime has offered another version of the bill with some version of the funding corrected into a sort of happy compromise.  As far as I can tell, no Republican compromise has been offered at all.

     I would love to hear the details of one, though, that any of my Republican friends are aware of.  Especially one that keeps all the treatment provisions for the first Responders in place and simply offers a mutually acceptable funding option.

     Until that time, I am somewhat skeptical here of anything other than an attempt to block the passage of any such bill at all, and not because such a bill isn't needed.
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31 posted 08-07-2010 05:34 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I tend to agree with Grinch's point-

"It didn’t pass because the Republicans didn’t want to give the Dems bragging rights to claim that they’d passed a piece of popular legislation."

The party of NO has sunk so low - refusing to help American heros and the victims of 9/11.

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32 posted 08-07-2010 07:45 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It's simple enough, Bob, although I'm not sure why I am supposed to respond to YOU over a comment made to Jennifer, but that seems to be the way it is lately..

Why do teabaggers hate the 9/11 first responders?

"Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the GOP is lining up against the Firefighters and Police Officers who rushed into the Asbestos inferno of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

The profits of these companies are MORE IMPORTANT to today's GOP than the long term health maintenance of the men and women who put their lives on the line and those who died on September 11, 2001."


Now, obviously, this is a garbage article, by anyone's standards. I doubt if even you, Bob, would concur with these statements. They are basically a rant and rave for shock value and little else. Yet, they were copied, pasted and posted to...what? Prove some kind of point? In my view, anyone who happened to wander into the Alley and saw these comments being used would not believe the posts of such a person who would use them to be credible.

If I were to quote some right-wing hothead blog (and, yes, they are there, too) calling Democrats slimeball, disingenuous, uncaring, unfeeling people who hate anyone that stands in their way, I'm sure anyone reading it would feel the same way, that my using such a ridiculous rant would make my comments less than credible, also.

To resort to using such  things is not favorable to the poster. You, Bob, asked to please not have the word Democrat used in places where democratic would fit because you found it personally offensive and yet you can't understand how someone calling Republicans a group who could care less about 9/11 responders as being a fine thing to do and not to be found offensive at all? Well, that's up to you, I suppose.
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33 posted 08-07-2010 07:58 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

quote:
Why do teabaggers hate the 9/11 first responders?

This, Jennifer, is where credibility runs mighty thin on your argument.
This would be akin to me posting, "Why do members of the Baptist faith hate America?"

There is a particular very small group of them that goes around making the comments that G-d hates America; however, I know for an absolute fact that there are members of the Baptist faith who are serving in the miitary, and who- through other means- support their country each and every day. Of course, were I to write such balderdash, you would- I am guessing- be at the head of the line calling for my resignation from life... and yet, you feel the need, the right, and the freedom to print such as you have.
You absolutely do have that right. We also have the right to feel that, because of it, you have completely lost this particular debate, and a large slice of any credibility your arguments might have had. Your argument is lost when you blatantly insult over a million people with a blanket accusation. I can personally name you four people who were crawling around the rubble of the Towers... one was on Mayor Guilliani's staff, one was (and is) a NYC police officer who was there within 20 minutes after the first tower got him, the other two were volunteer fire fighter/rescuers from the local area. I am not going to out which ones; however, 2 of the aforementioned people are members of the 9/12 Organizations... and I would venture to say they are not alone.
To say that myself, or ANYONE involved in protesting the current administration hates the rescuers is no different than saying those that protested the last one hates them... pure garbage.

In the case of the people vs. your facts... you come out on the losing end.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

JenniferMaxwell
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34 posted 08-07-2010 09:50 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“Creditability” Review

- Denise stated the Dems attached “garbage”to the bill but couldn’t back up that statement.
- Ringo posted a fantasy as possible justification for Republicans voting against it.
- Balladeer posted an article that trashed a first responder and made misstatements about the bill.

Hmmm, pot/kettle, stones/glass houses?

[This message has been edited by JenniferMaxwell (08-07-2010 10:30 AM).]

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35 posted 08-07-2010 12:22 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Sorry, Grinch...I had not seen your reply until now.

I see nowhere in that article where anyone suggested that the detective did not deserve compensation. The medical examiner questioned whether or not his death was caused by his actions on 9/ll. Whether or not he was a hero worthy or not of having a bill names after him was in question. Citing that he had medical issues other than 9/11 is not a slur on the man...simply an examiner's findings. Nowhere that I can see does it state he should not have deserved the same compensation of any of the other responders. If you did, please point it out.

Btw, Jennifer, simply because a medical exam uncovers those findings, that is not "trashing" a man by any standards. I would think you would know the difference. "Why do teabaggers hate 9/11 responders?" Now THAT'S trashing...
JenniferMaxwell
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36 posted 08-07-2010 12:59 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, I have edited my offending post.

I, a non-teabagger, took the time to do a little research re Zadroga, his illness, the autopsy reports, etc., and came to the conclusion that, IMO, Hirsch was wrong and your post was trashing a first responder without even minimally investigating all the facts.

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37 posted 08-07-2010 01:32 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

Mike,

A pathologist had determined that the detective had died due to inhaling material while responding to the 9/11 incident, as such his family were due compensation. Some people however didn't believe he was a hero, that he didn't deserve compensation, so a second autopsy was performed and Bloomberg announced that the findings were clear - the detective wasn't a hero, no compensation would be paid.

It took a third autopsy to decide the question, it found that the first autopsy was correct and his family finally got compensation.

The second autopsy was only necessary Mike because some people didn't believe he deserved compensation.

It's a no-brainer.

He responded to 9/11, he inhaled material, he died, an autopsy confirmed that 9/11 played a factor in his demise - just pay the man's family - don't start huffing and puffing about the cost.

9/11 responders are getting ill and dying, there's a bill to fund research and assistance - vote for the damn bill - don't start huffing and puffing about the cost.

Trash them?

The people who demanded a second autopsy should be publicly flogged.

.
Bob K
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38 posted 08-07-2010 06:44 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Thank you, Mike.  Your comments about the post itself rather than about Jennifer were exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
JenniferMaxwell
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39 posted 08-07-2010 11:14 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"If I were to quote some right-wing hothead blog (and, yes, they are there, too) calling Democrats slimeball, disingenuous, uncaring, unfeeling people who hate anyone that stands in their way, I'm sure anyone reading it would feel the same way, that my using such a ridiculous rant would make my comments less than credible, also." - Balladeer

Memory Refresher-

Death Panels


Ron
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40 posted 08-08-2010 10:23 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron attacked the post, you attacked the poster.

Again, Jennifer, it's all a matter of perspective. I'm glad you didn't see my comments as a personal attack because that's certainly not what I intended. But you could have. Some, I'm sure, would have, if only because it's pretty normal to get defensive.

Perspective.

Similarly, it's not hard to see Balladeer's quip as a personal attack. However, even though the grammatical subject of his remark is you, it's clear that the object was your post. It's the difference between contending you lost credibility because of the post and saying your post is irrelevant because you have no credibility.

In spite of that, I probably would have edited Mike's comment had I read it before you responded to it. It was poorly phrased and, without any support offered, added absolutely nothing to the conversation. I was at a conference from Wednesday to Saturday, however, and could spend only a few minutes a day in the forums. By the time I got here, the comment had become a conversation. Those are typically a little more difficult to edit.
JenniferMaxwell
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41 posted 08-08-2010 01:25 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

"By the time I got here, the comment had become a conversation. Those are typically a little more difficult to edit." - Ron

Not a problem, ok with me to let it be if editing it now is a bother. There's one of those "talking about other people" posts that troubles me far more. You can find it in the VM forum.
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42 posted 08-08-2010 01:38 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://cagle.com/working/100802/margulies.jpg
 
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