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Swamp Duty

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Bob K
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since 11-03-2007
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25 posted 08-04-2010 07:24 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:


Gotta love this woman...of you're a conservative. The swamp has been drained...because of charges against Rangel and Waters? No, because a "criminal syndicate" operating out of the Republican leader's office has been squashed. What criminal syndicate, you ask? Where is that reported in the newspapers? Where are the headlines? Who was in that criminal syndicate? How was it defeated? When? Beats me...



     While you say the subject of the thread is Rangel and Waters, you do not limit your comments to them, Mike.  My comments were directed at some of your other comments, the ones quoted above among them.  You wanted to know about the criminal syndicate and Jennifer supplied a reference for you.  

     You asked the question, and it's there in black and white to be seen.  

     If it isn't relevant to the thread and you don't want an answer, edit yourself and don't ask it.  That would probably be the most reasonable course of action.  To pretend that all you've spoken about are the cases of Rangel and Waters, however, is misleading.

quote:

I cannot recall and Republican speaker coming into power by ripping on how bad and corrupt the Democrats were and how he/she is going to clean it up.



     Raising an issue such as this, for example, begs a response beyond the Rangel/Waters parameters that you claim to be sticking to.  If this comment is appropriate for such a thread, then a response to it is appropriate as well.

     You have forgotten the Gingrich Congress which swept it way into power with its Contract for America.  It seems that the Rhetoric of that Congress has slipped your mind.  You might consider re-evaluating your statement above in rememberence of those events.

     Some of that rhetoric was justified, I believe, by the poor behavior of some of the Democratic incumbents, just as some of the Democratic rhetoric is justified.

quote:


You misdirected your message, Jennifer. Bob is the one with the impulses to discuss them. Tell him...



     The truth is that all of us ought to be concerned about any sort of misbehavior by any of our elected officials, Democratic or Republican, as Ringo mentioned recently in another thread.  I have from time to time found myself at odds with Ringo, but I believe he is making a great deal of sense here for anybody with concern for us as a nation rather than partisan party concerns.
Balladeer
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26 posted 08-04-2010 10:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Jennifer's link referred to a republican criminal conspiracy?? And how Pelosi was able to break it up?? Bob, you're just arguing for argument's sake..

The truth is that all of us ought to be concerned about any sort of misbehavior by any of our elected officials

Of course we should. We should also be concerned about a cure for cancer, corrupt union officials and illegal aliens. That doesn't mean, however, we should discuss them in a thread about Waters. Rangel and Pelosi. You all needed to bring finger pointing into the thread for obvious reasons. I;m really not interested in the petty bickering any longer, Bob. If you're not interesting in discussing the topic at hand,  why even bother responding? If you want to discuss other issues, you start a thread about the other issues, which Jennifer did, and discuss them. It's really not that difficult.
Bob K
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27 posted 08-04-2010 11:12 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



quote:

You all needed to bring finger pointing into the thread for obvious reasons. I;m really not interested in the petty bickering any longer, Bob. If you're not interesting in discussing the topic at hand,  why even bother responding? If you want to discuss other issues, you start a thread about the other issues, which Jennifer did, and discuss them.



     Where is it written that you can bring up issues in a thread, such as the issues I quoted your bringing up above, and not expect them to get a response in that thread?  Please, cite that rule for me, so I will be able to understand what I'm doing wrong here.  I am aware of no such rule, but I'm willing to learn if you can show it to me and act politely in the process.

     In the meantime, if you are unable to reply to the substance of what I'm saying, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try to tell me what to do as long as I'm acting in a polite fashion and it's in line with the rules of the site.

     No matter what the ostensible title of the thread, as far as I know, I still have the right to reply to your comments.  If you want my replies to be more on subject, keep your comments there as well.  That seems both fair and, as I understand it, the rules of the house.  If they are not the Rules of the house, you can tell me so or, better, one of the other moderators can tell me so.  They'd be clear of the conflict.  Or Ron could say something if he chooses, as he does on occasion.

     In the meantime, I've made some points that you might choose to address.

     Telling me not to address points you yourself brought up in your thread is specious.  If you don't wish a response, don't bring them up or, better yet, don't bring them up[ in public, where people are likely to have reactions and may wish to exercise their right of free speech to express them.

    
JenniferMaxwell
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28 posted 08-06-2010 01:26 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

No Smoking Gun in House Ethics Committee Report Against Waters

ďThe actual committee report reveals in full detail that Waters did not profit from or influence decisions the Treasury made to help One United Bank, or any other minority bank. But the damage has been done. Waters is now firmly imprinted in the media and public mind as the poster politician for congressional corruption. She's black, high profile, a ranking Democrat, and outspoken. That instantly made her an inviting target to dump on the political hot seat. The release of the full report should, but won't change that.Ē
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/earl-ofari-hutchinson/no-smoking-gun-in-house-e_b_671932.html


Bob K
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29 posted 08-07-2010 04:06 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     The report that Jennifer mentions suggests that, while the charges concerning Charlie Rangel may have some merit to them, the charges concerning Maxine Waters have considerably less merit to them, if any at all.  There is still some room for more information to stream in here, but it appears that the invitation to pig pile on both folks may have been inappropriate.

     Any of us has the right to issue such an invitation.

     From a constitutional perspective, because we are speaking of political figures, our speech is protected.

     My thinking is that it must be protected to ensure that all may enter the political discussion, should they wish.

     Once again I register a preference for an attempt to present evidence when we chuck our opinions about.
Ringo
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30 posted 08-07-2010 08:05 AM       View Profile for Ringo   Email Ringo   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Ringo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZegTfr5HRg

Since the lovely and talented Rep. Maxine Waters has been brought up... Here's one for the Democratic set. I wonder if she has the same thoughts today?

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "WHAT A RIDE

Grinch
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31 posted 08-07-2010 10:45 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Once again I register a preference for an attempt to present evidence when we chuck our opinions about.


My preference Bob would be for people to actually voice their own opinions, I donít mind if they donít initially offer evidence with the opinion.  Iím quite capable of ascertaining the validity of anything they say by checking out the facts myself and if I disagree with an opinion Iíll either ignore it or Iíll challenge the opinion. Evidence from the opinion giver at that point would be nice but again it isnít necessary Ė if no evidence is offered itís simply another way of recognising that they have no conviction that their opinion is correct.

Occasionally it turns out that someone offers an opinion that differs from my own but they provide evidence that, when I check it out, supports that opinion, in which case I gladly accept their opinion as being equally valid. In other cases they may offer evidence that forces me to re-evaluate my opinion. Either of those cases, where I see an alternate valid opinion or am compelled to amend my own are, for me, the most edifying.

What tends to happen here though is that people post other peopleís opinions or offer link and quotes to something that purports to be evidence of something but with no clear suggestion of what it is evidence of or what opinion the poster derives from that evidence.

.
JenniferMaxwell
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32 posted 08-07-2010 12:08 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

ďMy preference Bob would be for people to actually voice their own opinionsĒ - Grinch

Iíd like to see that happen too, Grinch. Unfortunately those opinions, rather than addressing the issue, too often contain disparaging, belittling or off topic remarks directed at other posters. Iíve been misquoted, quoted out of context, had my words twisted into something never intended so many times that I really hesitate spending time writing an opinion piece only to see it followed by a response thatís little more than a veiled (or not so) ad hominem attack.


Ron
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33 posted 08-07-2010 11:41 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
I really hesitate spending time writing an opinion piece only to see it followed by a response thatís little more than a veiled (or not so) ad hominem attack.

Some people, Jennifer, might contend that your complaint is, itself, a veiled (or not so) ad hominem attack?

Whether it is or isn't is neither greatly important nor my real point. My point, rather, is that it's always going to be a matter of perspective. Recognizing when someone is attacking you when they should be attacking your points is an important skill. It is no less important, however, to be able to recognize when you find yourself doing it to others.

It's good, sometimes, to change our perspective.

quote:
What tends to happen here though is that people post other peopleís opinions or offer link and quotes to something that purports to be evidence of something but with no clear suggestion of what it is evidence of or what opinion the poster derives from that evidence.

I agree, Grinch, though probably for different reasons. One has to wonder what the purpose of a discussion forum is on a site dedicated to writing when so many are just quoting and linking and (worse for us bandwidth-deprived Members) posting YouTube URLs?
JenniferMaxwell
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34 posted 08-07-2010 11:51 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYA9ufivbDw
JenniferMaxwell
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35 posted 08-08-2010 12:30 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

And some people are wondering why some personal attacks are edited out and some are allowed to remain. Some people say there seems to be pattern, certain posters seem to be targeted repeatedly by the edit wand while others with similar rule violating posts are usually passed over.
JenniferMaxwell
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36 posted 08-08-2010 01:44 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Actually did a little research trying to sort out when/why copy and pastes started to so often take the place of original opinion pieces. All I could come up with was battle fatigue. Seems like for several years now most of the Alley discussions have centered around the political arena, forces on the right battling forces on the left. At first the handful of regular posters all sent in their pipers, our little brilliant opinion writes, after that, seems some (not all) became battle weary, relied on the spear hurlers and archers, sarcasm and zingers or the defensive shield of deflection. Now, for them, (including myself) seems pretty much all thatís left in the armory is a collection of rusty cannon balls, other peoples writings. Perhaps weíre just too weary of it all to do our own writing, thinking, yet unwilling to retreat or surrender.
Ron
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37 posted 08-08-2010 10:46 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
And some people are wondering why some personal attacks are edited out and some are allowed to remain.

Perspective?

quote:
Some people say there seems to be pattern, certain posters seem to be targeted repeatedly by the edit wand while others with similar rule violating posts are usually passed over.

Some learn more slowly than others what is acceptable and what isn't.

There are three kinds of posters in the Alley.

There are those who address the posts; they aren't very concerned with what is acceptable or not because they don't have to be.

There are those who can't seem to help themselves from talking ABOUT the other people posting, and I'm sure those are the ones who seem to be targeted repeatedly. One would hope they will eventually learn.

And then there are those who have learned what is acceptable and what isn't and believe they are clever enough to skirt the difference. There is very little hope they will ever learn anything.

quote:
Perhaps weíre just too weary of it all to do our own writing, thinking, yet unwilling to retreat or surrender.

I can relate, Jennifer. Those of us listening to it are probably just as tired.


Grinch
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38 posted 08-08-2010 11:43 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
There is very little hope they will ever learn anything.


Well you certainly have me pegged Ron.

I must be a right royal pain in the rear at times - and for that I apologise.

.
 
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