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Passions in Poetry

Whom Exactly?

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Denise
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0 posted 07-22-2010 08:58 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Whom exactly did the Stimulus help again?
http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoyaegwuekwe/multimediafinal.html
Balladeer
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1 posted 07-22-2010 09:17 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Quite telling, isn't it, Denise?
Ron
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2 posted 07-22-2010 11:29 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Balladeer: "If you look at it from the side of AlQada being damaged enough and on the run enough that we have not had another 9/11, then the answer would be yes, wouldn't it? Think of what 9/11 cost us. But then that's one of those unprovable points, isn't it?" (From this post)

LOL. Too bad we can't see what the unemployment rates would be today without the Stimulus, isn't it?  

(It might also be interesting to see what that graph would look like today had we not spent so much money and resources in Iraq?)

On the other hand, not knowing is probably a good thing. Just like we can't know whether there would have been another terrorist attack? Some things just have to be taken on faith.

Grinch
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3 posted 07-22-2010 01:23 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Rich folk

.
Balladeer
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4 posted 07-22-2010 11:36 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, we can't know, Ron, but we know that it is worse than it was. At the risk of having it ignored like it has been the last dozen times before, I'll repeat that Obama gave assurances the unemployment rates would not go up. It did. He claimed to have shovel-ready jobs. He didn't. He promised immediate results as far as people being employed. There weren't. He went a year without even using much of the stimulus money he claimed he had to have immediately a year before. If you want to use the argument that, since we can't know how bad it would have been without the stimulus package, you should be able to show where the stimulus package actually did something beneficial enough to make a difference in not having things get worse. I would be interested in seeing that evidence.

Also, if that is the reasoning you wish to use, then you must also be in favor of the action in Iraq and Afghanistan based on that same logic. Are you?

Take things on faith? Now THERE'S a reasonable plan of action!
Ron
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5 posted 07-23-2010 12:40 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think you keep forgetting, Mike, the real purpose of the stimulus plan. It was to reassure consumers and instill confidence in America's economy. Even if our government accurately knew the future, did you really expect the stimulus plan to be accompanied by news that unemployment might reach 15 percent in some parts of the country? Some might see that as defeating the real purpose?

quote:
If you want to use the argument that, since we can't know how bad it would have been without the stimulus package, you should be able to show where the stimulus package actually did something beneficial enough to make a difference in not having things get worse. I would be interested in seeing that evidence.

Your logic there escapes me, Mike. I'm afraid I can't show you where the stimulus package prevented things from getting worse. I also can't show you where killing people in the Middle East has prevented a repeat of 911. As you said elsewhere, those kinds of things can't be proven.

quote:
Also, if that is the reasoning you wish to use, then you must also be in favor of the action in Iraq and Afghanistan based on that same logic. Are you?

Again, your logic escapes me. I'm unsure how one necessarily leads to the other?

For the record, though, you shouldn't assume I'm in favor of something just because I argue against what I see as faulty logic. The graphics Denise posted are no more related to the stimulus plan than they are related to 911. They only show what has happened, not why, and they certainly don't show what could have happened. Or, for that matter, what will happen.

I might also suggest you stop lumping Iraq and Afghanistan together, Mike. That's two different conversations. Or perhaps you want to extend the parallel I drew between the economy and terrorism to include being saved from WMD?      


Balladeer
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6 posted 07-23-2010 11:08 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I think you keep forgetting, Mike, the real purpose of the stimulus plan. It was to reassure consumers and instill confidence in America's economy.

In that case, the plan is a rousing failure. Polls show clearly the consumer confidence has plummeted. Dare I once agains ask about those shovel-ready jobs that weren't, ignored once again?

Your logic there escapes me, Mike. I'm afraid I can't show you where the stimulus package prevented things from getting worse. I also can't show you where killing people in the Middle East has prevented a repeat of 911.

No, Ron, you can't and that's the point. The plan was that it WOULD prevent things from getting worse. Acknowledging that it didn't makes the plan faulty. Show where our actions in the Middle East (described by you as "killing people"), could have prevented a repeat of 9/11? A good case can be made for that. Bin Laden, if he is still alive, is toothless, at best hiding in a cave somewhere. AlQada has been on the run with much of it's membership decimated. Many countries have stepped up their anti-terrorist measures and security is much more prevalent. In many areas, locals have turned against terrorists. They are a band on the run, capable of doing little more than suicide bombings and small attacks.  Could this be because of our action in the Middle East? I think a reasonable person would say there is a great possibility of that. Even the two botched attempts in the US this year were amateurish at best. Can you see those attempts orchestrated by the organization that planned 9/11?

So, I believe I can make a case for those actions and you cannot make one similar for the stimulus plan. That is my logic that escapes you.

The graphics Denise posted are no more related to the stimulus plan than they are related to 911. They only show what has happened, not why, and they certainly don't show what could have happened. Or, for that matter, what will happen.

The graphics relate directly to the fact that the stimulus plan has done nothing to better the economic situation, which is what it was described as being able to do. Yes, the graph does show what has happened - that's the message. It shows what was not supposed to have happened, according to Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

If you manage a football team and convince the owner to spend millions on acquiring new players and changing tactics, assuring him the results will be immediate, and then go 1-16, I wouldn't suggest you go to him and say, "Well, it could have been worse!" I think you would be looking for a job at the end of the season, which is what Obama, Pelosi and Reid should also be doing.  
Mysteria
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7 posted 07-23-2010 01:18 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Now I know you are not going to think this is funny, but I laughed so hard to myself, I had to share it.

I said to myself, "Well no wonder the statistics have not changed, those illegal immigrants are taking all the jobs."

That graphic does not show what was, what will be, or any comparisons at all for that matter, or what caused the changes in percentages.  To me that graphic is just another, "let stick to the Obama Admin."

The situation is bad I will agree.  I can only hope it gets better.

Thanks for the information - I will see what this site has to say as to what caused these percentages.

U.S. Dept. of Labour  Here is a good resource from that site: Unemployment Statistics

We have our own little problem up here right now, they have given us a "Harmony Tax" to the tune of 14% on almost everything you purchase.  Trust me we are not singing in harmony up here either, but we need that money in our kitty.    
Balladeer
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8 posted 07-23-2010 01:59 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

That graphic does not show what was, what will be, or any comparisons at all for that matter,

Maybe you didn't press the PLAY button, Mysteria? it shows every month from May 2007 on.

Good luck with your harmonious day!!
Mysteria
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9 posted 07-23-2010 04:32 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I pushed play   This is not made by or for the Department of Labour though is it?
Ron
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10 posted 07-23-2010 04:35 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So, I believe I can make a case for those actions and you cannot make one similar for the stimulus plan.

Of course I can, Mike. And it would probably be more credible than yours. If military action in Afghanistan hasn't prevented Al Qaeda from GREATLY increasing their attacks in Iraq, what makes you think it had any real impact in the United States? If we've got them running at all it seems to be in the wrong direction, and if we've kept them busy it sure seems like the wrong kind of busy. The only demonstrable thing that has clearly helped prevent more American attacks is increased security, both here and abroad. And that, of course, has nothing to do with our boys being in Afghanistan.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have gone after Al Qaeda on their home turf. On the contrary, I'm only sorry we lost focus and didn't finish the job when we had the best chance. However, I see military action as a possible deterrent, not an effective counter-measure.

You want a case for the stimulus plan?

Just take a look at our economy in 1929. That's what could have happened in 2008. All of the signs were there, and indeed, many feel America was in much deeper poo two years ago than we've seen in all our history. In 1932, Mike, national unemployment was 23.6 percent. Without the bailouts and without the consumer support fueled by the stimulus plan, that's likely where Denise's charts would show us today. Recession, Mike? Two years ago, we were poised for another Depression. Or worse.

More evidence?

The Great Depression, of course, didn't affect just the United States, but rather hit most of the civilized world (in large part, sadly, because America passed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff in 1930). Not all of the countries hit, however, reacted the same.

The first country to turn things around was Sweden.

In chapter six of capital imports and exports" by Erin Elver Jucker-Fleetwood, the author sets Sweden's turn-around during the summer of 1933 (roughly six years before America would see similarly positive signs). The author goes on to say, "The (Swedish) government had declared its intention of pursuing a public works policy in order to provide work and sustain consumption. This policy did not, however, really come into effect before 1934, when the upswing had already started."

Gee, that sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it?  

At the same time Sweden was seeing strong signs of recovery, the recently elected Roosevelt became obsessed with a balanced budget and rejected Keynes' advice to begin heavy deficit spending. Where Sweden spent its way out of the Depression, America's more conservative approach doomed us to another six years of suffering.

The second country to recover?

That would be Germany, in 1936, through extremely heavy deficit spending as she prepared for war. In 1937, after some small signs of economic growth, Roosevelt actually cut spending and, that summer, America plunged into a double-dip recession.

In 1938 Britain became the third nation to recover -- because it began deficit spending in preparation for war. America didn't begin emerging from the Depression until 1939, when we borrowed and spent $1 billion to build our armed forces. That, of course, was the same year Hitler invaded Poland.

When the war ended in 1945 the United States emerged as the world's only economic superpower as deficit spending shot our national debt to a staggering 121 percent the size of the GDP. By comparison, our debt ranged from about 57 percent of GDP in 2000 when Bush took office to 69 percent at the beginning of the recession in 2008. Today it rests at about 94 percent. High, yes. Unprecedented, no. Check it out yourself ...

It's a little ironic, Mike, that the staggering 121 percent of GDP national debt in 1945 gave rise to . . . us. The Baby Boom generation.

I'm guessing our parents didn't feel they were saddling their children with a debt from which they could never recover? They were, judging by the unprecedented and never again repeated deluge of rug rags from 1945 to 1950, a little more optimistic about the future of America than you often seem to be. The incredible economic boom in America that ran from 1945 to about 1963 would seem to suggest their optimism was justified, don't you think?

You see, Mike, I really don't need to make a case for the stimulus plan. History has already done that for us.


Balladeer
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11 posted 07-23-2010 04:53 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Well, Ron, in order to validate the points you have made I would have to take the actions Obama has done since getting the stimulus money and compare those actions to what they did back in '29, the 30's and '40's. I would have to compare them to what Sweden did to pull itself out. Unfortunately, I don't know what actions Obama has taken with the stimulus money (battery plant in your belovedd state excepted). He has indeed increased the size and salaries of government with it, so I suppose government employees applaud it loudly. The rest of the country? I think....not so much. Having a plan is one thing. Implementing it is another. I don't see the implementation.

As far as us baby boomers are concerned...are you serious?   You think the reason people have babies is because they feel optimistic about the future?? That may be true for a section of the middle class but would that be why poor people far outdistance the other classes in production?? Let the government promises come along they will be taken care of with government checks and the production rises. You may want to rethink that assumption....and I've never heard them called rug rags before
Balladeer
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12 posted 07-23-2010 05:01 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Mysteria, I don;t know who actually created the map but, underneath, it states that was created from data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and area unemployment statistics.
Ron
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13 posted 07-23-2010 05:14 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Judging by history, Mike, implementation doesn't seem to greatly matter. The four countries I cited, for example, certainly didn't implement deficit spending in exactly the same way. The money went this way and the money went that way. What they have in common is that they spent money to make money and convinced their respective populations the world wasn't going to end tomorrow.

Oh, and that should have been rug rats, not rug rags. It's a common enough term up here?  

You're right, of course: having babies isn't necessarily synonymous with optimism. That, however, doesn't change the fact that the Fifties and Sixties WERE rife with optimism in spite of the highest national debt before or since. Nor did it apparently impede an economic boom unparalleled in recent history.
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14 posted 07-23-2010 06:06 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

What they have in common is that they spent money to make money and convinced their respective populations the world wasn't going to end tomorrow.

Fair enough. In that case we should be able to see where Obama has spent money to make money....shouldn't we? As far as convincing the country in a positive way, that doesn't seem to be working out so well, does it? I'd say Obama has a ways to go to reach those objectives. People aren't buying his "Well, it could have been 15%", with respect to the unemployment figures and they don't seem to be buying the optimism he is trying to spread, without seeing anything positive to back them up. You can fool some of the people some of the time.....
Ron
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15 posted 07-23-2010 07:15 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

What was the unemployment rate in 1932 again, Mike? What is it today?

Apparently enough of the country has been convinced. It's a shame, of course, it couldn't be everyone.
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16 posted 07-23-2010 07:43 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Couldn't be everyone, Ron? Any poll you may care to look at shows believers in the minority.

The unemployment rate in 1932? That is the litmus test you want to use? You want to compare our life now to life in '32 after the market crash? Send that thought to Obama. When he gets tired of saying "It could have been 15%", he can say, "It's better than 1932!"  

Are you saying then that we are better off now than in '32 because of Obama's stimulus plan? Would you care to show how?
Ron
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17 posted 07-23-2010 09:33 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Any poll you may care to look at shows believers in the minority.

Which is a pretty good indication of the value of polls, Mike. Those people? They're the same ones who continue to spend enough discretionary income to keep the country running smoothly. Well . . . as smoothly as this country ever runs, I guess. In contrast, shortly after taking office, Roosevelt was forced to declare a "Holiday" to stop another run on the banks (the third bank panic since 1929). Now THAT was an example of people who didn't believe.

Polls? What people say, Mike, will never be as important as what people DO.

quote:
Are you saying then that we are better off now than in '32 because of Obama's stimulus plan? Would you care to show how?

LOL. I already did, Mike.

So did Sweden.
Balladeer
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18 posted 07-23-2010 10:16 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Smooth, Ron.

Ok, we can leave it at that. You aren't going to respond to specifics any more than you don't respond to the lies of the shovel-ready jobs. That's fine.

It's funny how people trash polls whenever the polls are against their own way of belief. That's fine, too. Polling is actually a well-respected profession and eerily accurate when performed by professionals. Since the polls reflect negatively on Obama and his policies, in everything from health care to the stimulus to Arizona to job satisfaction, it's understandable the polls would be disregarded by those in favor of the policies. There aren't a lot of other choices.

When the polls are in their favor, politicians are the first to use them to claim that is "what the American people want". FUnny how it works that way....
Denise
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19 posted 07-24-2010 08:19 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I think we don't see a massive run on banks today because people have faith in the FDIC, which wasn't around in '32.
serenity blaze
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20 posted 07-24-2010 08:42 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Although I'm pretty sure Ron can handle that one, I do beg your pardon Denise.

I think--just a hunch, we don't see the same massive run on banks today because more peops live on credit.

The bail out of Wall Street had to be done--because, as Ron did point out earlier, without it, we would be in a far more dire situation than we are now.

And I'm typing this while breathing dispersant.
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21 posted 07-24-2010 09:07 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Yep, credit and unemployment checks.

A customer told me yesterday that her cousin had been living on unemployment  but was concerned last week that it might not be extended...so he went out and found a job....how about that?
serenity blaze
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22 posted 07-24-2010 09:20 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

There is ONE person I spoke to on the phone, as the Metro New Orleans Area went through a preview of recession post-Katrina, and this, this is what I broached as the topic of conversation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_economic_crisis_(1999%E2%80%932002)


I am not saying I can survive by studying history, but lovie? YOU might be able to do so.

We're still giving it a helluva try.
Denise
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23 posted 07-24-2010 10:01 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm sure credit plays a role too for many people, which eventually will make their situation worse. And you do have to have money in the bank to make a run on it.
serenity blaze
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24 posted 07-24-2010 10:18 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Denise? I'm not sure what it is you'd like.

What do you want?

Our President simply continued those bail-outs, and it didn't make me happy, but I did understand.

So, if you guys will allow her, I'd like to hear exactly what Denise would like to see put into action by our government.

No sarcasm.
 
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