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Denise
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0 posted 07-19-2010 10:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Why are our tax dollars being used to influence a 'YES' vote for an expansion of abortion and for giving Sharia courts legal status in Kenya?

Aside from it being morally reprehensible to me and probably to a majority of Americans as well if they knew about it, couldn't this money have been used here, say to pay for another extension of unemployment benefits?
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=181405
Balladeer
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1 posted 07-19-2010 11:56 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest, Denise.
Ron
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2 posted 07-20-2010 10:56 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

It's probably not too difficult to find at least a few things you don't like in a 206-page proposal for a new constitution. And, of course, that's what you're talking about -- a constitution. While I'm not much into so-called nation building, promoting constitutions that reflect America's own structure seems to be fairly standard practice in recent years.

How much have we spent getting a new constitution in Iraq?
Grinch
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3 posted 07-20-2010 02:25 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


It doesn’t surprise me either, the US has a long history of that sort of thing – as Ron rightly points out.

Kenya’s abortion laws are long overdue for reform though.

.
Denise
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4 posted 07-20-2010 03:15 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

But why are our tax dollars going full tilt to support these two specific referenda to the constitution when there are those who oppose these additions to it? And why are we on the side of those pushing for the Sharia Court status change? Why are our US Aid dollars going for political causes anyway?
Balladeer
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5 posted 07-20-2010 03:15 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Writing a constitution, Ron? Is that what we are doing there, writing the Kenyan constitution?


"Despite denials, the Obama administration's funding to support passage of the controversial
Kenyan proposed constitution is clear," Jeff Sagnip, spokesman for Rep. Smith, told WND in an e-mail over the weekend. "It constitutes U.S. monetary interference in a sovereign nation's voting process. If passed the constitution would dramatically alter existing pro-life laws."

An investigation by three Republican  congressmen has revealed the Obama administration  has secretly spent $23 million of U.S. taxpayer dollars in Kenya to fund a "Yes" vote on a constitutional  referendum scheduled for Aug. 4 that would increase access to abortions in Kenya and establish legal status for Islamic law tribunals.


"By funding NGOs (non-governmental organizations) with obtaining 'yes' votes, the administration has crossed the line," Smith said last week in a statement. "Directly supporting efforts to register 'yes' voters and 'get out the yes vote' means the U.S. government is running a political campaign in Kenya. U.S. taxpayer funds should not be used to support one side or the other."

The Standard in Kenya reported Kenyan Higher Education Minister William Ruto, who is leading the "Red" team opposing the Kenyan constitutional referendum, has accused Ambassador Ranneberger of crossing the "no-go-zone for foreign diplomats."

In defending his actions, Ranneberger argued he was operating within his diplomatic orbit, but "more so because the U.S. is a friend of Kenya and is pro-reform," according to the report published by the Standard.

So what's another 23 million? Why Kenya? Oh...never mind.
Grinch
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6 posted 07-20-2010 05:52 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1261.pdf

Why Kenya?

Oil?
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/269940


.
Ron
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7 posted 07-20-2010 06:43 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

What's the difference between Iraq and Kenya? And half a dozen other countries, as well?

I mean, except we're shooting people in one of them, of course?
Balladeer
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8 posted 07-20-2010 08:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The difference between Iraq and Kenya? Well, the 2007 presidential campaign in Kenya, Raila Odinga – the presidential candidate of the Orange Democratic Party is a Luo tribesman like Obama's father. There's one.

So we are in a recession, Obama is pleading to have unemployment benefits continued, has declared that the country curb spending - and decides it's time to give Kenya 23 million for an abortion issue with the promise of millions to follow later.  Is there something there that makes sense to you?
Denise
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9 posted 07-20-2010 10:27 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

Abortion and Sharia Law. Why? If our tax dollars have to support any side in Kenya's constitutional debate, why not the side of pro-life and the non-elevation of Sharia to legal status under their constitution?
Ron
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10 posted 07-21-2010 01:00 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I think you need to define your issues, guys.

Is it about the money? About nebulous ties to our President? Or is it about abortion? If you can pick an issue, we can perhaps talk about it.


Balladeer
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11 posted 07-21-2010 07:54 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

It's a package deal, Ron. First, it's about the money. Obama can't seem to stop spending. Pleading with congress to extend unemployment benefits, he continues to spend money in ways that do not immediately benefit the country or Americans. When you are fighting or in a recession, immediacy takes on a little more importance. Then the question becomes why? Obama's personal and family ties to Kenya cannot be ignored there. Then the question becomes what's the money for? You mentioned it was for writing a new constitution for the government. We are not writing a new constitution for them. These are for specific points that Obama wants to see passed, even to the point of interfering with the country's personal affairs. If you look at the specifics of what the money is being used for, you will see that it is to facilitate the ease of voting. In other words, Obama wants to employ the same tactics that he used to get elected president. He wants to zero in on the groups that he feels will support what he wants done and get them to the polls. Yes, that is interference, whether it be for abortions, Sharia law or anything else.

If Obama is so eager to spend more, let him send it down to the fishermen and businesses on the Gulf. Let him spend it on immigration control. Let him spend it on helping the people who will be out of a job with his proposed morarotium on off-shore drilling. There are many ways he can continue to continue his spending ways. Abortions and Sharia law in Kenya? That shouldn't even make the list right now.
Ron
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12 posted 07-21-2010 11:36 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
First, it's about the money. Obama can't seem to stop spending. Pleading with congress to extend unemployment benefits, he continues to spend money in ways that do not immediately benefit the country or Americans. When you are fighting or in a recession, immediacy takes on a little more importance.

In the first place, Mike, $24 million is about what we spend in Iraq in 30 minutes. It's probably less than we've spent on body bags. If we're going to stop interfering in other countries, let's at least get our priorities in order.

Second, what you call immediacy I suspect many would call short-sighted. When you are fighting or in a recession, being short-sighted will often prolong your problems instead of solving them. Indeed, I think leadership could almost be defined by a willingness to look beyond immediacy.

quote:
Obama's personal and family ties to Kenya cannot be ignored there.

Yea, actually, they can, Mike. Just like his ties to Kevin Bacon can probably be ignored. Six degrees of separation and all that? There are always going to be ties for those wanting to see them. So what? Trying to weave a pattern between coincidence and motivation is classic conspiracy theory. You're assuming base motives and then expecting everyone else to make the same assumption.

Has the United States spent $24 million (or more) in any other country where the President doesn't appear to have personal ties? If so, then maybe the personal ties weren't the cause?

quote:
These are for specific points that Obama wants to see passed, even to the point of interfering with the country's personal affairs.

LOL. Well, we've certainly never done that before!

quote:
If you look at the specifics of what the money is being used for, you will see that it is to facilitate the ease of voting.

Yea? Are you advocating it should be difficult?

quote:
Yes, that is interference, whether it be for abortions, Sharia law or anything else.

Well, of course it's interference, Mike. Everything we do in a foreign country is interference of one sort or another. Now, please, explain to me again how this is so much worse than shooting people and blowing up buildings?

It's pretty clear to me that the strident cries of, "Abortion! Abortion!" are the usual emotive obfuscation of the issues. The proposed constitution in Kenya is simply codifying what America otherwise has in legal precedent; the life of an expectant mother supercedes that of a fetus. I can see how that will upset those people completely opposed to any instance of abortion, but for most of us the proposed constitution isn't advocating abortion. It's advocating common sense. Honestly, after reading the legislation on abortion and seeing how it had been twisted, I didn't even bother investigating the claims on Sharia law. I figured it was just more of the same.

In any event, whether one agrees or disagrees with individual points in the proposed constitution, they are nonetheless individual points. I would love to see a constitution that was perfectly in alignment with my personal agenda, not just in Kenya but also in America, but honestly, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.


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13 posted 07-21-2010 12:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

When you are fighting or in a recession, being short-sighted will often prolong your problems instead of solving them.

True enough...so show me where spending money for abortion bills and Sharia law in Kenya has some connection to solving our problems here.

You're assuming base motives and then expecting everyone else to make the same assumption.

Hardly and you are mimimizing the connection and making comparisons that have nothing to do with common sense. Obama and Kevin Bacon - Obama and his father. These you would place in the same category.....not even a good try.

LOL. Well, we've certainly never done that before!

Which, I'm assuming means to you that anything is fine as long as it's been done before. Tell you what...the next time England has elections and our president wants the Labor party to win, he can send millions over there to organizations he finances to get the voters he thinks will lean toward Labor. I feel certain their government will welcome this interference - not!

Now, please, explain to me again how this is so much worse than shooting people and blowing up buildings?

Another comparison that makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't expect to change your, or anyone's mind, Ron. We had the same type of conversation long ago over the stimulus package when I stated that a bill loaded with billions of pork was not right at a time we were in so much debt. We had the same conversation over health care where I said "Why right now when we are in so much deb't? and you basically said, "Well, you have to do it sometime." So we have a stimulus package that didn't not lessen unemployment (except for the millions of government jobs it created) and a health care bill that the majority of the country doesn't want and which now claims that you may NOT be allowed to keep your own doctor, contrary to Obama's multiple promises that you would, and taxes and additional charges that were not discussed, and even denied, in the original bill. You contend that the stimulus bill is working because Hollywood is shooting a movie in Grand Rapids. No, I wouldn't try to change your mind. I simply state my thoughts on it and I stand by them. If Obama gives Kevin Bacon a few million, I will rethink my position.  
Ron
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14 posted 07-21-2010 03:40 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
True enough...so show me where spending money for abortion bills and Sharia law in Kenya has some connection to solving our problems here.

Since we're not spending money on abortion bills and Sharia law in Kenya, Mike, your question makes little sense. If you would like to ask questions without the implication that I beat my wife, I'll try to answer them.

In the meantime, perhaps you can tell us how spending money in Iraq is solving our problems here?

quote:
Hardly and you are mimimizing the connection and making comparisons that have nothing to do with common sense.

On the contrary, Mike, they have everything to do with common sense. Pick any man in the world. Any. There will be less than six degrees of separation between that man and the president's father. A connection is irrelevant. Even the nefarious ones alleged for Dick Cheney.

Either an action is okay or it isn't okay.

President Bush wasn't precluded from acting in the best interests of Texas just because he lived there or just because his dad still lived there. Show me where Bush played favorites, privileging Texas over other states, and we'll have something to talk about. Suggesting that anything Bush did for Texas is questionable doesn't cut it, though.

quote:
Another comparison that makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes perfect sense, Mike, if you want me to believe you're seriously concerned about $24 million dollars being sent to a foreign country and not just picking another bone with Obama because it's Obama. If you don't want to spend our money (or our sons' lives) on nation-building, you and I will have a lot upon which we can agree. But you're going to have to convince me that's your REAL issue, because I don't think it is.

quote:
So we have a stimulus package that didn't not lessen unemployment ...

Yes it did (I'm ignoring your double negative, which I assume was unintentional).

quote:
... and a health care bill that the majority of the country doesn't want ...

The majority of the country who went to the voting booths, Mike, made it pretty clear what they wanted. Polls, fortunately, don't count when it comes to running a country, largely because they are unreliable and too easily manipulated. Voting seems to work better.

quote:
... and which now claims that you may NOT be allowed to keep your own doctor, contrary to Obama's multiple promises that you would, and taxes and additional charges that were not discussed, and even denied, in the original bill.

Uh, uh. I think this time you left out the part about the death panels? Do you honestly think unsupported allegations are going to fly now, Mike, when they never have in the past? If you have something to support those points, by all means, start a new thread.

quote:
No, I wouldn't try to change your mind. I simply state my thoughts on it and I stand by them.

Most of us have figured that out, Mike. And I'm perfectly fine with it. I just think it's important that all of us, including you, understand what those thoughts actually are. If you're honestly concerned with America spending money on nation-building then that's what we should be talking about. If you're talking about something else, though, as appears to be the case to me, I think you should make your agenda more clear. Then, we can at least talk about the right things.


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15 posted 07-21-2010 05:18 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

The majority of the country who went to the voting booths, Mike, made it pretty clear what they wanted.

Actually, I don't remember going to the voting booth and voting for the current health care bill. Perhaps you mean that they voted for Obama, who declared health care reform was one of his campaign promises. That's true enough but I don't think that meant that that gave him carte blanche to create any health care bill he wanted and they would love it. If he had shown the finished product before the election, he may have had a much harder time getting elected.

honestly concerned with America spending money on nation-building

No, I am not honestly concerned with America spending money on nation-building. I am honestly concerned with America spending money...period.  We are in a hole almost impossible to crawl out of, because of Obama's spending. Yes, he created a bad situation due to the previous administrations but his free-wheeling spending sprees have thrown us and our future generations in a gigantic mess. The billions he allowed in the stimulus package went against his promise of no more pork. The hundreds of millions that went to lobbyists went against his promise of no more special interests or lobbyists. His promises of debt-neutral spending has turned into a joke. His push for cap and trade would hit already-struggling Americans in a very hard way. He doesn't care. His policies have small business holding their breath, waiting for other shoes to drop before they do anything. He's a kid in a candy store with limitless cash in his pockets....and he just keeps spending. Now he has a financial reform bill that doesn't even include Fanni and Freddie, the two biggest villians in the entire scenario. We are going to see a huge increase in taxes in January, I'm sure. Economists will tell you that even just the interest on our loans are going to be horrendous and yet Obama keeps on spending. Does his spending on Kenya bother me? Only to the point that he keeps on spending on things that don't even benefit the country in any way. Has our spending in Iraq and Afghanistan benefitted us? Well, that's another thread, isn't it? If you look at it from the side of AlQada being damaged enough and on the run enough that we have not had another 9/11, then the answer would be yes, wouldn't it? Think of what 9/11 cost us. But then that's one of those unprovable points, isn't it? Do I think that Obama is giving money to Kenya because of his heritage? Probably so, a little too much coincidence there. Does 24 million bother me? Well, as the comics say, "A million here, a billion there, and before you know it, you're talking about real money!"

I would like to see Obama exercise some of the fiscal responsibility he promised in his campaign. I would like to see him stop doing little more than increasing the size of government. I would like to see him put away his "U.S. Treasury" credit card for a while and give it a rest. Ah, well, there are a lot of things I'd like to see, like teaching the world to sing in three-part harmony.

Thanks for ignoring my double negative. I can be negative enough without being doubly so
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16 posted 07-21-2010 05:57 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

.. and which now claims that you may NOT be allowed to keep your own doctor, contrary to Obama's multiple promises that you would, and taxes and additional charges that were not discussed, and even denied, in the original bill. ----Mike
.


Uh, uh. I think this time you left out the part about the death panels? Do you honestly think unsupported allegations are going to fly now, Mike. If you have something to support those points, - - - -Ron
.
Alrighty then...
.
One of Barack Obama’s promises during the healthcare reform debate was that if you liked your doctor or your insurance plan you would be able to keep your doctor and your plan. While that is still technically true there is one problem; you might not be able to afford to keep your doctor, and your employer might not be able to afford to keep your plan.

  In an effort to keep down the costs of providing healthcare to their employees many small companies, and large ones as well, are beginning to look at less expensive plans. These plans include plans which limit a person’s choice of doctors. If your doctor is not on the list of accepted doctors under the new plan you are out of luck. These plans do offer you a chance to keep your doctor if he or she is not on their plan– you will just have to pay a premium. If you cannot afford to pay a premium for the privilege (as the article I linked to calls it) of keeping your own doctor, you will be forced to get a doctor who is on the new healthcare plan that you will also now have to purchase. So much for keeping your doctor or your plan.

http://americaswatchtower.com/2010/07/18/obamacare-want-to-keep-your-doctor-pay-a-premium/

Barack Obama told audiences time after time that, “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor,” under Obamacare. He demonized those who challenged this argument.
This week we found out it was just words. Barack Obama finally admitted on Friday thay you will not be able to keep your doctor if Obamacare is passed.


This article is followed by a Youtube video of Obama announcing that you may not bea ble to keep your own doctor but....guess what? The video has been removed. No matter, I saw it on Fox, along with four clips of Obama's earlier promise of just the opposite.http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/02/obama-finally-admits-you-can-kiss-your-doctor-good-bye-under-obamacare-video/

Oh, those death panels, Ron......??
NYT: ObamaCare's Success Based On Denying Medical Procedures.
.


In today's "Now They Tell Us" segment, the New York Times on Wednesday reported that ObamaCare's ability to bring down costs will be a function of denying some people medical services and procedures. "From an economic perspective, health reform will fail if we can't sometimes push back against the try-anything instinct," wrote David Leonhardt. "So figuring out how we can say no may be the single toughest and most important task facing the people who will be in charge of carrying out reform."

As you continue to read Leonhardt's shocking words, consider that the paper he writes for has published over 100 articles about Sarah Palin's "death panels":

As Ed Morrissey wrote  Wednesday:

    For months, media outlets like the New York Times scolded conservatives over their concerns about rationed medical care. Sarah Palin outraged them by referring to "death panels" when the ObamaCare bill wound up containing language enabling "comparative effectiveness" boards as guiding lights for medical care decisions...Now they admit that the "most important task" of the people running the ObamaCare reform is to deny people medical care - under circumstances where a group of elites decide it's not worth it.



Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/04/07/nyt-shocker-obamacares-success-based-denying-medical-procedures#ixzz0uM6ekdO1

Ron
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17 posted 07-21-2010 06:56 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
No, I am not honestly concerned with America spending money on nation-building. I am honestly concerned with America spending money...period.

Good. With that out of the way, we can stop wasting time with familial connections, abortions, and all that other stuff. It's all about the money, then.

Like you, Mike, I have a big problem with America's money being wasted. There are several items in your list that I, too, think are a waste of money. National Health Care (sic) is one of them. A few items in your list don't really involve Federal spending, at least to any great extent, Cap & Trade being one. I think C&T is a good idea. While you're concerned with the short-term effects on jobs, I'm much more concerned with the long-term effects on the economy. Our continued dependence on fossil fuels has the potential to destroy the country. Not hurt it, Mike. Destroy it.

You should probably note, however, that my problem is with America's money being wasted, NOT with American's money being spent. As a businessman, I know it takes money to make money. That's why it's called Capitalism, after all. What you call spending, others will call investing. I'm sure someone somewhere thinks spending $24 million dollars in Kenya is an investment that will pay off later. Whether it's a good investment or not can ultimately only be addressed in the future. At one time, after all, America thought investing in Saddam Hussein was a good bet. I think we'd all like our money back on that one.

Are we spending too much? I honestly don't know, Mike. I think you have some seriously good points that we are. On the other hand, ten years ago I also thought Jeff Bezos was spending himself into oblivion. His relatively new company, amazon.com, was so far from making a profit and so far into debt there didn't seem to be any possible way he could survive. The more he sold, the more money he lost.

Bezos, however, plainly had faith in his company. Should we, perhaps, have less faith in our country? Jeff Bezos' faith proved justified, I think. I hope Barrack Obama's is, too.

I'm not sure, Mike, there's any such thing as spending too much money. There is, rather, such things as spending money wisely or spending it foolishly. From that perspective, clearly every single line item has to be examined on its own merit. What would have happened if Bezos had stopped spending money simply because he had already spent so much?

quote:
Has our spending in Iraq and Afghanistan benefitted us? Well, that's another thread, isn't it?

LOL. I thought National Health Care was going to be another thread, Mike.

To answer your question, I would say No and Possibly, respectively. Putting pressure on Al Qaeda in Afghanistan may have prevented more terrorism. I'm willing to accept that possibility as reality. Al Qaeda wasn't IN Iraq, however, at least not until we opened the door for them. From where I sit, there has been absolutely no benefit accrued to America by our spending in Iraq. Benefits to the Iraqi people are questionable.

And, my friend, there's nothing wrong with three-part harmony.

Ron
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18 posted 07-21-2010 07:03 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
In an effort to keep down the costs of providing healthcare to their employees many small companies, and large ones as well, are beginning to look at less expensive plans.

Sorry, Mike, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with National Health Care. That was as inevitable as night following day. It's not even new, but has been going on for over twenty years (that I personally know about). Probably longer.

quote:
"From an economic perspective, health reform will fail if we can't sometimes push back against the try-anything instinct," wrote David Leonhardt. "So figuring out how we can say no may be the single toughest and most important task facing the people who will be in charge of carrying out reform."

Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with National Health Care. Do you know of ANY insurance policy that pays every claim submitted? Denying claims is a function of insurance, so every insurance policy, national or private, is going to have to pick and choose and inevitably tell someone no.
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19 posted 07-21-2010 07:17 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Thank you, Ron. You have made several points that are good food for thought.

I'm not sure, Mike, there's any such thing as spending too much money.

I think the more valid question is is there any such thing as spending too much money when you don't have the money to spend? Perhaps when the bank account it at zero and the credit cards are maxed out, that could be a time to stop spending and charging? (and, no, my girl would not agree with such logic).

Enjoyed the conversation....
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20 posted 07-21-2010 10:17 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

http://www.theonion.com/video/congressmen-submit-emergency-3-am-bill-demanding-i,17473/

serenity blaze
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21 posted 07-21-2010 10:32 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

um..y'might wanna click it off after that first clip. I just stumbled on the site, and found it only mildly adult oriented, but um...

use your discretion. Not mine. *wince*
 
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