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Enough said...and not by an American...

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Sunshine
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0 posted 07-08-2010 07:15 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine


...but a Patriot at heart, and I would take him into my home in a minute minute!

God bless this human....as only God could.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-gro und-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html  

I am amused by the detractors of his statements. They run rampant...and I can only guess that so many of them live here...in the U.S.

Balladeer
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1 posted 07-08-2010 09:37 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I completely agree, K...
Sunshine
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2 posted 07-08-2010 09:52 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Thank you!

Denise
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3 posted 07-08-2010 11:35 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I couldn't agree more, Karilea. Thank you for sharing this.
Ron
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4 posted 07-09-2010 02:54 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I got about two minutes into it. About to the point where he claimed 911 could never have happened except for the teachings of Islam? As if 911 was the only atrocity ever committed in this world? Or even the worst?

That's when I clicked off. I don't have time to waste on ignorance and prejudice.


JenniferMaxwell
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5 posted 07-09-2010 03:16 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Grinch
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6 posted 07-09-2010 11:56 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

I've heard this bloke beore - he's a hard atheist stand-up comedian with a penchant for attacking religion and the religious.

Richard Dawkins thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread and he writes poetry.

I should like him - but I don't.

"Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings"

Robert Zimmerman

So true Bob.. so true.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Condell
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3gerx_pat-condell-hello-angry-christians_shortfilms
Sunshine
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7 posted 07-09-2010 12:00 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I appreciate all viewpoints. Thank you!
JenniferMaxwell
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8 posted 07-09-2010 12:50 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

In one of his videos I watched, he mentioned something about the religion/God you believe in now might be the one you condemn had you been born in a different part of the world.


Mysteria
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9 posted 07-09-2010 03:43 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

and sitting on my hands.
JenniferMaxwell
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10 posted 07-09-2010 04:03 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Why, Mysteria?
Mysteria
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11 posted 07-09-2010 04:08 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

That man makes a living off of getting reactions just as he now has, and I don't have much to say about someone who makes money from being sensationalistic, and spreading prejudice. I find them toxic, and they are not the kind of people I can even respect, let alone promote.
serenity blaze
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12 posted 07-09-2010 04:35 PM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Aw, Kari...

I'm sorry to be so predictably disagreeable--it's just that I think that to deny the right of any religion a place of worship would  conflict with the principles upon which The United States was founded.

Mysteria is correct. The guy's a sensationalist and unworthy of your attentions. I happen to believe that the existence of this mosque will not weaken the image of our nation's ideals around the world--I think it underscores the strength that it takes to maintain the integrity of our foundations.

Sunshine
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13 posted 07-09-2010 07:00 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

And I'm learning more all of the time. I do appreciate everyone's input. Thank you!

Balladeer
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14 posted 07-09-2010 07:11 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Interesting comment, Ron. If one were to say that the Crusades wouldn't have happened without the teachings of Christianity, would it be any different? Just curious...
Bob K
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15 posted 07-09-2010 07:14 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     I listened to the whole thing.  I thought it was well constructed, clever and hate-filled.

     Freedom of Religion has been a very difficult piece of the constitution for us for a very long time.  Franklin said that he would welcome the building of Mosques in this country, which suggests he may have taken his freedom of religion with a fair amount of seriousness.  We are also apt to rewrite our own history in our heads.  FDR said to Harry Hopkins that the United States was a Christian Nation and that the Jews were here as a sort of tolerated minority.  As an FDR fan, that was not one of my favorite FDR moments.

     Great Britain does have a state religion, and they have a splendid history of religious prejudice and rage to go with it.  Protestants barbecued Catholics and, under Mary, there was a certain amount of reciprocation.  Everybody was very serious about it.  Within the Protestant denominations, there was a certain amount of this sort of stuff as well. Puritans were not thought of as wonderful folks by the majority of Englishmen, and you can see a fairly brutal caricature of one in Shakespeare's [i]Twelfth Night[i ]in the form of Malvolio.

     The United States puts demands on its citizens that other countries don't.  These are set forward in the constitution.  We tend to think of them as Freedoms, because they are freedoms as well.  My freedom to practice my religion makes it my Responsibility to help supply you the Freedom to practice your religion.  The same set of laws apply to all of us, so that if your religion demands human sacrifice, you are still governed by laws limiting murder.  The doctrinal fine points I suspect we are supposed to work out amongst ourselves.

     We don't arrest Christians for taking communion, no matter how firmly they believe they are literally partaking of the flesh of Christ, and Muslims don't get arrested for striving for perfection within themselves as long as this greater meaning of the word Jihad doesn't lap over into taking violent action against other people in ways that manifest themselves in the quotidian world.

     We are supposed to be able to keep our understanding of the physical and spiritual straight, and understand where it is permissible to display the physical.  The law is for those who are not able to maintain this distinction.

     There are fools who cannot tell the difference between the violence of a physical jihad and the effort necessary to help one maintain the spiritual discipline of a demanding faith.  There are also fools who are confused by a crusade for spiritual advancement and a violent attempt to take other people's land.  Both kinds of fools exist on both sides of the religious divide.

     The Muslims have  right to build a Mosque in this country anywhere they can purchase land and where they are not otherwise breaking the law.  Any other religious group does as well.  In this country, they don't need to pass a popularity contest, they simply need to maintain a standard of legal behavior, and, judging from the activities of many of our other religious groups, not a very high standard at that.

     It's one of the things that makes Americans odd in the rest of the world.  I mean odd in a good way.

     Hating this aspect of American life is also traditional.  We go back a long way hating Catholics and Jews and Mormons; and all sorts of  Protestants have disliked each other.  It's Mom and Apple Pie to our culture.  It always makes an attempt to sound rational, too, like the anti-catholicism I remember from the election of 1960, where the local (Canton, Ohio) Republican Buzz was that we couldn't elect a Catholic president, because he'd be taking orders from Rome.

     It made sense to me when I was a kid and didn't understand the history of political defiance to Rome's attempts to run local politics.

     Freedom of Religion is better.  

     And this speaker is a very angry man who makes a well spoken case for putting aside the Freedom of Religion clause in the bill of rights.  I don't think it's enough.  There are always people who hate something about the constitution, but it takes a better case than this one to convince me to set it aside.

     Actually, he doesn't even mention the constitution, does he?  

     Perhaps he thinks it isn't important enough to bring up.
Ron
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16 posted 07-09-2010 07:44 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

No, Mike, it wouldn't be any different at all. Not unless you believe the Catholic popes who encouraged (I'm being kind) the Crusades encompass all of Christianity?

It's not a bad comparison in some respects, though. Pope Urban II endorsed the First Crusade in 1095 when the Byzantine emperor requested mercenaries after getting his butt kicked and losing most of what is now Turkey. Like the extremists of today, the whole thing was far more political than religious.

Religion is almost always an excuse for violence, not a reason. That's as true today as it was a thousand years ago. I suspect it was true when we were still dragging our knuckles on the ground, too.
Essorant
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17 posted 07-10-2010 12:44 AM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

"Apparently it's not enough that nearly three thousand innocent people had to lose their lives in a hideous act of religious mass murder, but now their memory has to be insulted as well, and the religion that murdered them allowed to build a towering, triumphalist mosque on the ground where they died."

"I'm not even American, but it makes me sick to my stomach to think that Islam is going to be allowed anywhere near Ground Zero"


Religion is a choice, unlike something such as race, but I don't see how this is much different from the kind of misled thinking that results in racism: it is basically blaming the religion instead of the terrorism itself or treating the religion as if it is the terrorism, just as people may treat a race as if it is to blame for this or that because people of that race were involved in the crime.   Very saddening and disappointing to see that kind of mentality.

Balladeer
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18 posted 07-10-2010 01:19 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

Ron, the instigation, planning and execution of the acts are political but the foot soldiers, the crusaders do not fight for the politics of it, they fight for the religion the politicians use as motive.
serenity blaze
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19 posted 07-10-2010 01:29 AM       View Profile for serenity blaze   Email serenity blaze   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for serenity blaze

Essorant? Lately there's just something about you that mellows me out.

I have some friends from the Middle East, and they are so skittish, too. Well, most of 'em. There's this one guy that's just a big jolly joy, just because he's happy to be here.

He told me that other people have treated him as guilty by association, not even questioning the fact that he considers himself a refugee, exiled from his homeland...he condemned the actions of The Taliban and relgious extremists and risked his life to come here--just as many have before him.

Have a hug, Ess.

You must have some kinda neutralizing pheremones for me lately. *chuckle*
Grinch
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20 posted 07-10-2010 05:15 AM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
the crusaders do not fight for the politics of it, they fight for the religion the politicians use as motive.


Interesting point Mike, but if taken to its logical conclusion then surely we shouldn’t be building Churches either because Christians do bad things too.

.
Ron
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21 posted 07-10-2010 10:29 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Ron, the instigation, planning and execution of the acts are political but the foot soldiers, the crusaders do not fight for the politics of it, they fight for the religion the politicians use as motive.

And were it not religion, Mike, it would just be something else. Maybe nationalism, masquerading as patriotism? One might as well argue that Nagasaki or the Trail of Tears could never have happened except for the teachings of Jefferson and those other 55 guys.

There is nothing in the Koran, the Bible, or the Declaration of Independence that makes people treat other people atrociously. Those just happen to be really convenient excuses for really bad behavior.

It's not about Muslim nature, Mike, any more than it's about American nature. Sadly, it's all just Human nature.


Balladeer
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22 posted 07-10-2010 04:32 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No, Ron, I don't think it's about Muslim nature, either. I'll confess I don't know a lot about the Koran but it seems that an abridged version dictates, in for us or against us style, that non-believers be killed. That version seems to be the one suicide  bombers follow (especially since it's also the one promising the virgins).
Ron
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23 posted 07-10-2010 04:51 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

I might buy into that, Mike, if the only suicide bombers in history were all Muslims. However, your suggestion makes it difficult to explain the Kamikaze pilots of WWII. Or the men who just as surely committed suicide at the Alamo. Or countless others throughout history who willingly gave their all because someone convinced them it was the "right thing to do."
Bob K
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24 posted 07-10-2010 05:02 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     When your enemies get to write your abridged version — and your enemies will always get to write your abridged version; they make sure of it and you're human enough to help them — you will always look like an evil genius to the people predisposed to dislike you, and to many people who would ordinarily be neutral.  This is true even when you're God, in case you hadn't noticed.  When you're another religion, it's even worse.

     To complicate matters, there really are authentically evil people in the world, though, as Jung says, they aren't as common as you might think.

     My opinion is that they're fairly evenly distributed amongst the peoples of the world, just as the really great folks are.
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