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Enough said...and not by an American...

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Denise
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75 posted 07-12-2010 08:03 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I'm not in a position of allowing anybody to do anything, Grinch. Any graciousness in that area would be coming from the planning committees in charge of the memorials. I would imagine that faith focused memorials would be included, be diverse and be plentiful.
Bob K
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76 posted 07-13-2010 02:34 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Well, Denise, then you're doing what by complaining about their legal exercise of religious expression?  You're certainly not exercising your right of religious expression, since I've heard no mention of your opinion being Christian or Animist or Cargo Cult or Bahai; only that you feel these folks shouldn't express their religious feeling.

     While you certainly have the right to express your political opinion, the political opinion you're expressing is against a legal expression of protected Religious belief.  Why these folks, operating within the legal bounds of the laws of this country, should sacrifice their religious expression to satisfy your animus against their co-religionists, whom you have supplied no particularlly compelling evidence that  these folks in any way represent, seems to me to be an unwarranted wearing away of these folks civil liberties.  I believe that, indirectly, such a position undermines the civil liberties of all of us, including your own; and proves to be short sighted.

     I'm reasonably certain that you disagree, and would be interested in hearing how.  
Denise
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77 posted 07-13-2010 08:38 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

They shouldn't sacrifice their religious expression, Bob, unless they do so voluntarily, out of respect for those personally suffering by the actions of their co-religionists. Choosing the site they did and celebratory grand opening on the tenth anniversary date of the actions of those co-religionists tends to portray them as unconcerned about the sensibiities of those who have suffered the deepest emotional scars (the friends and family of those killed) from that tragedy.

Of course, they can do as they please. But to many their olive branch assertions and claims of good will ring hollow when they seem to be indifferent to the pain of others.
Ron
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78 posted 07-13-2010 10:14 AM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

Your concern, Denise, reminds me of two brothers from Redondo Beach, Tom and Dick. They were raised by their mother after their father died in a Japanese POW camp during WWII, and Tom, the older of the siblings, was utterly convinced their mother liked Dick better than she liked him. There was, of course, no real basis for feeling that way, but every time the mother would single out the younger son, as is inevitable in any family, Tom's misgivings grew.

Tom's feelings were, of course, real. But they weren't justified. It would have been wrong for his mother to respond to those feelings by slighting Dick in even the smallest way, even if that would have perhaps made Tom feel better. Yes, we can and should take into consideration the feelings of other people. But when those feelings have no basis in reality we cannot let them dictate our actions. Tom's feelings cannot be allowed to supercede those of Dick or those of their mother, both of which are equally real.

I have little doubt the mother told Tom, probably many times, that she loved him just as much as she loved Dick. And I suspect, Denise, that for Tom those claims rang hollow. That's the way it is with feelings, after all; they can rarely be altered with mere logic or simple truth.

Fortunately, Tom and Dick turned out all right.


Balladeer
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79 posted 07-13-2010 10:35 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

LOL! Nice one, Ron. That was certainly the the trademark they used, especially with their famous "Mom always liked you best!" signature line that they used in many routines. A true story, you say? That's interesting....
Sunshine
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80 posted 07-13-2010 10:47 AM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

I thought of the Smothers Bros. with the first sentence, and well recall, "...that's 'cause Mom liked you best!"
JenniferMaxwell
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81 posted 07-13-2010 11:57 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

celebratory grand opening on the tenth anniversary - Denise

My maths skills aren't the best, but if it's going to take 3 - 5 years to raise the funds/construct the building, how can they possibly have a "grand opening" on the 10th anniversary?


Balladeer
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82 posted 07-13-2010 12:20 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

While comedian Tommy Smothers always told his brother, “Mom always liked you best,” a study by biology researchers gives new meaning to the classic phrase. Researchers Wendy Reed and Mark Clark at North Dakota State University, Fargo, and Carol Vleck at Iowa State University, Ames, have found that female American coots favor their largest offspring, even before they hatch.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/mom-likes-me-best-egg-size-predicts-offspring-survival
JenniferMaxwell
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83 posted 07-13-2010 01:16 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Denise, can you recall where you read about the mosque grand opening being scheduled for the 10th anniversary of 9/11?
Mysteria
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84 posted 07-13-2010 02:43 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Here is one place Jen. Hot Air

Love the name.    

Here is another New York Post

This is a very insightful article, regarding a comparison to Executive Order 1066.

Huffington Post
JenniferMaxwell
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85 posted 07-13-2010 02:57 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Thanks, Mysteria. I've seen the tenth anniversary claim repeated unsourced on a lot of blogs and in opinion pieces. What I was hoping to find was something from those actually involved in planning the cultural center. The only thing I could find mentioned 3 - 5 years for funding and construction.
Mysteria
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86 posted 07-13-2010 03:07 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

This is a good link to watch and read, it is all local and up to date.  I am really starting to understand what mass paranoia can cause, and its darn ugly.  This is certainly not what I want "my world" to become, and its darn sad, as this hate, and fear will be passed down once again.

War Room  Boy the name of the paper is sure not far off target.
Huan Yi
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87 posted 07-13-2010 05:02 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi


.

http://www.danielpipes.org/rr/2010-06-24-farrakhan-letter.pdf


Enough said . . . and by an American . . .

.
Denise
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88 posted 07-13-2010 07:02 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I miss the Smothers Brothers! They were great! They sure don't make shows like that anymore. Thankfully most parents don't have favorites, Ron, and most kids who feel that their parents do play favorites really are basing their feelings on an unreality. But some actually are based in reality, though hopefully a very small number.

Are the 9/11 families basing their feelings in reality? I don't know. They don't want the burial place of their loved ones to be dominated by a 13 story mosque, which in their minds will be a symbol of the religion of the murderers of their loved ones.

I don't recall where I first heard about the date, Jen. It may have been an article from the Jihad Watch web site, but I can't find it on there now so maybe it was some other article I had read. I also remember reading one somewhere that said that it was the groundbreaking ceremony/celebration that was to be held on that date, which would make more sense if it will take years to actually build the new mosque. But I also could not find any primary source for that either, so hopefully it's not actually true.

Farrakhan is one seriously disturbed individual, John.

JenniferMaxwell
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89 posted 07-14-2010 12:18 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I think it's important to remember that many 9/11 families are Muslim.  
JenniferMaxwell
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90 posted 07-14-2010 12:35 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Those opposed to the Muslim Cultural Center/Mosque can always donate to make this Christian Center at Ground Zero bigger better and overshadow it  Toss in a little extra pocket change and maybe they can include a Starbucks and Burger King like they have in the Green Zone.
http://www.dnainfo.com/20100713/manhattan/christian-evangelical-center-plans-compete-with-ground-zero-mosque#ixzz0taVZAwhv

Bob K
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91 posted 07-14-2010 04:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Are you folks on the right actually suggesting I should be hostile now to both Muslims and Blacks?  That I should count the NAACP as an enemy of America, and that I should consider myself a White before I think of myself as an American?  And that because there are some seriously disagreeable Black Muslims, I should right of the actual upsets that both Blacks and Muslims have?

     Why are your upsets more compelling, if you please, than those presented by the various minorities of the country?  And why should I buy into this huge effort to keep the various parts of this country at each other's throats instead of cooperating with each other about the various economic and social issues we need to deal with together?  I don't want to dislike the Blacks or the Muslims or the Hispanics or the American Indians or even the Caucasians, heaven help us.  Hate and fear are easy.

     Cooperation is hard.

        
Essorant
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92 posted 07-14-2010 07:21 PM       View Profile for Essorant   Email Essorant   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Essorant's Home Page   View IP for Essorant

From Jen's Link:

quote:
Bill Keller, a televangelist from Florida, announced Monday that he is building a $1 million Christian center in lower Manhattan in response to the Cordoba Initiative’s plans for a 13-story mosque and community center there.



quote:
Keller is best known for running LivePrayer.com, an evangelical site that he said has 2.4 million subscribers. His anti-Muslim rhetoric — he calls Islam a "1,400-year-old lie from hell" and Mohammed a "murdering pedophile who propagated his false religion through hatred, violence and death" — has drawn protests from the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Two decades ago, Keller served several years in federal prison for insider trading, an experience that he said recommitted him to evangelical Christianity.



Something for Christians to be proud of?

JenniferMaxwell
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93 posted 07-14-2010 07:51 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Pretty sad, isn’t it Ess? And what’s even sadder is knowing that he stands a good chance of collecting tons of money from hate filled folks like those who made the following ad:

Kill the Ground Zero Mosque TV Ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjGJPPRD3u0
Sunshine
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94 posted 07-14-2010 10:22 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

As I continue to learn from my ignorance is that people continue to be chameleons in nature.

You can watch, for years, even decades, a certain individual in politics [or any given venue] and voila! Once YOU decide to back them up in their quests, personal, private or otherwise...

they suddenly change.

Have y'all seen poor Mel's sudden chameleon activity?

I'm sure you have.

What's behind it? Politics? I don't think so.

But then, I don't know.

However, I'm wondering what to think now? I liked a number of his films; I liked a lot of what he had done years ago. Didn't particularly like what followed some years later in his personal life, but hey! That was his Personal Life. I vicariously enjoyed the moments he thought to bring to screen.

Then he put his profession on the line in production of some controversial films. Now his critics say that his "mental break" is with something chemical.

So, how stupid was I [and I can admit to some real moments] when I thought that my sensitivies were aroused, enraged, just because some folk whose kin might have been the culprits in taking down the twin towers might want to erect a monument on what could be considered sacred ground.

We're all chameleons. Some of us adapt...some of us might change our minds; some of us know that by nature, silence might be better, and adaptation might keep us alive for one more day. Like chameleons. But...at what price, mental health?

I think I want a transfer to another universe. If I'm going to be stupid, I want it to be by myself. So I won't embarrass my friends. Especially those who keep finding that what they might have believed in once, is more mercurial than they thought...

just like gulf waters.

What's that line? Stop the world...I want to get off.

Ok ok, so now some of you can get your minds out of the gutter...    

That wasn't what I meant, and you know it!

So that's my rant for the day...and when someone less confused than I am about things that are for now, can explain it all to me?

My email is open.

Thanks for letting me hijack my thread once again.



" It matters not this distance now  " Excerpt, Yesterday's Love
~*~
KRJ
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