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Passions in Poetry

Enough said...and not by an American...

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Denise
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50 posted 07-11-2010 11:18 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The building in question was one that was involved, if peripherally, in the 9/11 attacks. An engine from one of the jets landed in it during the explosive impacts with the World Trade Center.

No one wishes to deny the Muslims their right to worship. They have mosques all over New York City, as well as across the country where they freely worship. The bone of contention arises with their selection of this particular site to build a mega mosque/cultural center in conjunction with the date they have chosen for the grand opening celebration. I think their assertion that they are doing it to symbolically offer and olive branch rings hollow when they defiantely forge ahead with their plans knowing the agony they are causing to so many.
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51 posted 07-11-2010 12:06 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“I think their assertion that they are doing it to symbolically offer and olive branch rings hollow when they defiantely forge ahead with their plans knowing the agony they are causing to so many.” - Denise

I’ve often wondered how the people of Baghdad must feel every time the pass the Green Zone and see the dark shadow of the city size U.S. Embassy looming over them like some gigantic vulture. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians were killed, mutilated, during the U.S invasion and so many of them were children. Seeing that monstrosity must bring back agonizing memories of the horrific slaughter of their loved ones during the shock and awe bombing of Baghdad.

Mysteria, many thanks for the Cordobian Initiative Article link. I really do need to do a lot more reading on the topic and that was very helpful.
.

“And sent him homeward, Tae think again.”
Denise
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52 posted 07-11-2010 12:21 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I guess I'm not getting your point, Jen. What is the correlation? Are you saying that since, in your opinion, the U.S. did something offensive in Baghdad, that it is okay for the muslims to do something offensive in New York?
JenniferMaxwell
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53 posted 07-11-2010 01:31 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Nope, just pointing out that I think we lost the moral high-ground on sensitivity/insensitivity a long time ago.
.

"And sent him homeward, Tae think again."
Mysteria
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54 posted 07-11-2010 02:34 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

I agree with that statement you made Jennifer, and hopefully it soon will return to those suffering from a lack of it.  I could write a book about how much I love the USA, and all its people.  The first time I was old enough to figure it out, I finally noticed that in New York lived the very same Jews that the Germans attacked and killed in my history books.  Now here, there were Germans, Italians, Jews, Gentiles,Black people, Chinese, and everything in between, every religion was present,and it made such a wonderfully colorful salad bowl of life.  I would drift off and think about the old NY gangsters, the various wars that had brought all these people together in this one place.  I would think about the grandparents and great grandparents who gave up everything so that their children could be free, a lot dying on their journey. I would think about the Statue Of Liberty, and realize they All had one common goal, they did it all in the sake of "freedom."  There is no other country like the USA!

I love this video - hope you do too.  It reminds me of the unity the USA represents, and just how very precious this freedom is for "everyone" who lives there!  New York is full of the world's history, and I hope that its heart mends soon, and all can be as it was once.  Doesn't mean we forget, but we somehow find the strength to forgive, and move on.


Let Freedom Ring - Gaither Vocal Band

Please let the word in this song, "God" be whatever you choose that to be.  I chose conscience.    

Denise
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55 posted 07-11-2010 02:37 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

You're entitled to your opinion. Doesn't mean that you are right, of course.
Bob K
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56 posted 07-11-2010 02:48 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So you believe you have found the place where their religious freedom ends, and it's before breaking any law, do I have that correctly, Denise?

     How exactly do you figure your objection meets any sort of constitutional test?

     That is the benchmark we're talking about rather than a test of religious righteousness correctness, isn't it?  Because  Muslims can be Americans, too, last I looked.

     And we haven't set limits on the size of religious buildings in this country outside potential zoning restrictions, that I know of yet.  Are you suggesting that there are Religious buildings we should make smaller?  Perhaps Christian religious buildings?  St. Patrick's Cathedral.  I hear it's very beautiful, but perhaps you feel it's too blatant a reminder of the Catholic problems with non-Catholics in the past, the inquisition or some such?  Maybe we should cut it in half?

     Perhaps we should attack one of the Orthodox Churches in memory of their anti muslim activities in the last Balkan War.  Cut down a Jewish synagogue or two to size or pull down a few buildings from Albert Einstein Medical School or their School of Social Work?

     If you want to go after those responsible for 9/11, might I suggest you consider not attacking the American Constitution, which is what, among other things, the terrorists dislike.  Don't advocate acting like a Jihadi, they can do that on their own.  Advocate extending and cherishing American Constitutional Liberties by using them.  
Mysteria
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57 posted 07-11-2010 03:00 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Denise:  "You're entitled to your opinion. Doesn't mean that you are right, of course."

You are right Denise, it sure doesn't mean she, or anyone else is right.  We still have to respect that person's opinion.

"Sometimes it is hard to to see beyond our own opinion, and really hear what others are saying, instead of trying to talk even louder so they will hear ours."  (You can thank my Gramma again for those words.)  

She was one smart cookie.  The thing I remember most about her was she drummed into our young heads, over and over, "The power is in the forgiving."  At 65, now I know just how right she was, and the power you regain in doing just that!  
JenniferMaxwell
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58 posted 07-11-2010 07:18 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

What an excellent point you made, Mysteria!

To this very day those seeking freedom, freedom from oppressive governments/regimes, religious intolerance, a lifetime of poverty, etc. are still coming to this country. If we’re not going to welcome them because of their race, nationality or religious beliefs, then maybe we need to take a refresher course on what’s written on the Statue of Liberty and in the Constitution.

No one can choose their heritage, but if they’re willing to live by/follow/observe our laws, what right do any of us have to say they don’t belong?

""Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of you teamming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Balladeer
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59 posted 07-11-2010 07:51 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

No one can choose their heritage, but if they’re willing to live by/follow/observe our laws, what right do any of us have to say they don’t belong?

That's the entire point.
Sunshine
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60 posted 07-11-2010 08:03 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

quote:
No one can choose their heritage, but if they’re willing to live by/follow/observe our laws, what right do any of us have to say they don’t belong?



Exactly, Jenn. I'm glad that on this, we're on the same page. And I'll just add to it, as I'm sure that generationally our forefathers who did not come directly from England had to, "learn to speak "English", if not "American".

Thank you so much.

And yes, to all of you out there who are saying, "But we took it away from the Indians..."

I wish I could go back and change that! But I can't. I can only take by virtue of faith the best care of what I've been given [land] in the manner best held up by the first American Native. That it is only here for us to tread upon lightly, feed us as it is willing to do, care for it that it cares for that which may give back to us, so that the cycle repeats itself respectfully.

JenniferMaxwell
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61 posted 07-11-2010 08:09 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

There are small victories, Sunshine.

Native American Tribe Reclaims Slice of the Hamptons after Court Victory
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/07/11-5

Sunshine
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62 posted 07-11-2010 08:14 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

Smiling! How appropriate for this thread that you found this today! Thank you, Jenn!

JenniferMaxwell
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63 posted 07-11-2010 08:30 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

You're very welcome, Sunshine.

All in all, I'd say this has been a very good discussion. Sometimes a rough start turns out to be a really good thing.
Sunshine
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64 posted 07-11-2010 08:36 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

If nothing else, little one, I would say it
left us open to knowing that all of our
members are compassionate, caring, and...



opinionated.

Denise
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65 posted 07-11-2010 08:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, you haven't understood my position, Bob. I am not advocating that they be deprived of any religious freedom in violation of the Constitution. My only point is that since they claim to be offering an olive branch and care, they should show that care and voluntarily build their mosque/cultural center at another location, removed from the Ground Zero vicinity, which for many is the burial ground of their loved ones, out of respect for their feelings.

I don't think we have to necessarily respect others' opinions, Sharon, we just have respect their right to express them. And I agree that your gramma was very wise.
JenniferMaxwell
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66 posted 07-11-2010 09:07 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“the burial ground of their loved ones, out of respect for their feelings.” - Denise

Don’t have the links or numbers at my fingertips, but I seem to recall there were quite a few Muslims killed in the attack, so Ground Zero would also be their burial ground. Has anyone asked their loved ones how they feel about the proposed Mosque or don’t their feelings count because most likely they're also Muslims?
.

"And sent him homeward, Tae think again"
Mysteria
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67 posted 07-11-2010 09:47 PM       View Profile for Mysteria   Email Mysteria   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Mysteria

Here is a local paper for you to keep track of what is going on in Manhatten.  At first they tried to make 75 Park Place protected by a heritage designation, but that didn't hold water.  Then they tried to re-open the forum about the project but that also has been squished.  Keep watching, we will see how this is going to go.
Manhatten Local News

By the way, you are right Jennifer, there were plenty of American Muslims who died during 911, here is a partial list.

American Muslims Dead In 911

This proposed 13 story building is right in the middle of the "Amish" shopping area     
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68 posted 07-11-2010 10:04 PM       View Profile for Sunshine   Email Sunshine   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Sunshine's Home Page   View IP for Sunshine

We continue to learn even more, Sharon. Thank you for sharing.

Denise
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69 posted 07-11-2010 10:29 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

If the friends and relatives of the Muslims who died there have objections to the proposed mosque/cultural center location, they are certainly free to express those objections, just as the others have. No one 'asked' them how they felt about it either. They just voiced their opposition when they learned of it.
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70 posted 07-11-2010 11:47 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

Those who committed the atrocity are also "buried on sacred ground" along with the victims. Thinking about that is really quite overwhelming.
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71 posted 07-12-2010 01:08 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     So public opinion trumps the constitution, then, is THAT what you're saying, Denise?  Out of respect for perhaps bigoted public opinion then a religious group should think it's OK to suspend their constitutional right to freedom of religion?

     How is what you're saying different than that?
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72 posted 07-12-2010 02:18 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
If the friends and relatives of the Muslims who died there have objections to the proposed mosque/cultural center location, they are certainly free to express those objections


Do the friends and relatives of the American Muslims who died deserve a religious memorial to mark their respects to their loved ones Denise? Do the Jewish Americans have the right to the same or the Hindu Americans?

If a Christian kills a Christian in a church should the church be demolished?

.
Denise
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73 posted 07-12-2010 04:41 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

No, Bob, I'm not saying that either. The religious group, if it wishes, to show consideration for the feelings of the grieving family members and friends of those who were killed at the WTC, could voluntarily decide to build elsewhere, as a display of understanding and compassion. No matter which decision they would make they would still have their right to freedom of religion.

Sure Grinch, they all have a right to input regarding the WTC memorial that is being planned on the Twin Tower site. I'm sure all the religions and nationalities will be represented there. I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't be.

The members of the church would have to vote to decide what they wanted to do with the church building. I guess their decision would have a lot to do with the circumstances and the feelings of the members regarding the tragedy.

The Amish school house in PA that was the site of the slaughter of little school children a few years ago was razed to the ground. The community decided that was best under the circumstances.
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74 posted 07-12-2010 06:55 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
Sure Grinch, they all have a right to input regarding the WTC memorial that is being planned on the Twin Tower site


That’s very gracious of you Denise, to allow them to be included in the WTC memorial but supposing they want a memorial that’s a little more focused on the faith that’s sustained them through their loss, don’t they deserve that?

.
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