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Denise
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125 posted 07-15-2010 06:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

There was an article I posted before that showed that the tea parties are representative by percentage of the general population. Race has nothing to do with it. Can the NAAPC say that? Of course not.

Media Matters proves to be nothing more than a left wing propaganda mouthpiece.
Balladeer
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126 posted 07-15-2010 08:28 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I did the same, Denise. Those are easily ignorable by the left because they factually disagree with the left agenda.
JenniferMaxwell
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127 posted 07-15-2010 09:06 AM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

“As the figure shows, even as we account for conservatism and partisanship, support for the Tea Party remains a valid predictor of racial resentment. We're not saying that ideology isn't important, because it is: as people become more conservative, it increases by 23 percent the chance that they're racially resentful. Also, Democrats are 15 percent less likely than Republicans to be racially resentful. Even so, support for the Tea Party makes one 25 percent more likely to be racially resentful than those who don't support the Tea Party.

Similar results obtain for racial profiling and the ability for authorities to detain people without putting them on trial. Again, controlling for ideology (conservatism) and partisanship, support for the Tea Party increases the probability that individuals agree that it's okay to “racially profile someone on account of their race or religion” by approximately 27 percent. Support for the Tea Party also increases the probability, by 28 percent, that the authorities should have ability to detain individuals without being charged, for as long as authorities like. Of course, in both cases, conservatism also matters: increasing the likelihood that people will agree with racial profiling and indefinite detention by 30 and 33 percent, respectively.”

http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html

Denise
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128 posted 07-15-2010 10:24 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It's a shame, isn't it Michael?

LOL gotta love those trick questions, Jen.

So it’s racist for people to think that blacks can do as well as whites if they apply themselves similarly?

Is it not racist to think that blacks can’t do as well as whites if they apply themselves similarly?

This is an example of the valid predictor of racism among tea party supporters? You have got to be kidding me. Did this professor get his degree out of a crackerjack box or a box of Fruit Loops?

Liberals see racism where they want to see it, and they especially see it when and where their ideology dictates they should see it. And University Race Studies Departments see it wherever they look as a way to justify their existence.
JenniferMaxwell
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129 posted 07-15-2010 12:53 PM       View Profile for JenniferMaxwell   Email JenniferMaxwell   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for JenniferMaxwell

I didn’t expect you to agree, Denise, but I was hoping for something a little more challenging and informative than “Did this professor get his degree out of a crackerjack box or a box of Fruit Loops?”

The statements in the poll (not necessarily the percentages) do seem to reflect what we’ve seen in this forum.

Ron
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130 posted 07-15-2010 01:15 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
So it’s racist for people to think that blacks can do as well as whites if they apply themselves similarly?

The thing about racists, Denise, is that they almost never see themselves as racists. They think they're just exercising common sense.

If blacks could do as well as whites simply by applying themselves, then they WOULD do as well as whites. If 10 percent of the population is black, for example, then 10 percent of the top CEOs in this country should also be black. If 10 percent of the population is black, then 10 percent of all college graduates should be black. If 10 percent of the population is black, then 10 percent of the unemployed ranks should be black. It's simple statistics, Denise, not rocket science. And, like most of math, it's pretty much infallible.

You might just as well claim that women, as a whole, could make just as much money as men if they applied themselves similarly. And yet, statistically, we know they don't?

Racism, like sexism, isn't something open to personal opinion. It's a mathematical fact.

p.s. I don't think the distribution of race in the Tea Bag Party proves anything except the distribution of race. I've lived in towns that were both racially diverse and exceptionally prejudiced. You don't have to be white to hate everyone else who is different.


Balladeer
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131 posted 07-15-2010 05:08 PM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

My vote is for the Fruit Loops, Denise.
Grinch
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132 posted 07-15-2010 05:37 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


quote:
My vote is for the Fruit Loops,


And if enough people support them Mike they might just win.


Bob K
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133 posted 07-15-2010 08:26 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     It's been a while since I've had a chance to check in.  I see that the Right Wing folks have decided to chuck out the Media Matters reference without considering it.

     My suggestion, when I presented it, was that folks should consider that it came from a left wing source and check out the references for factual content, which can be verified.  The content of the Media Matters piece is also set up so that it is pretty much presented with researchable factual content right along, which is right out there in the open for anybody to look at and evaluate.

     That the folks on the right have decided not to do that suggests that they are not nervous about the possible propaganda element in the article.  After all, poropaganda is based on lies of one sort or another, and simple application of researched truth should be enough to expose it as the sham that it is.  If the Media Matters article were so easily dismissed, I suspect I would have gotten yards of scathing prose in response, telling me exactly how and where I was wrong and how and where my sources were lying.

     I see nothing like that.

     I see only an attempt for those Right leaning folks to avoid having to deal with the charges laid out in the Media Matters article about how the Bush Justice Department disposed of the original suit, for example, and of the nature of the complaining witness that Denise has brought up, and about his use of hearsay to substitute for details that he pretends to have first-hand knowledge of, and so forth.

     Their points are poretty much demolished in this article.

     No wonder they wish to dispose of it while pretending that the facts it offers can't be checked, or haven't been checked, and that it isn't their responsibility, if they wish to be believed, to offer a, honest rebuttal or acknowledge that they cannot.

     Or that the debate, which has seemed so important to them till this point, has become suddenly too boring to continue.

     My wife and I, by the way, will be out of town for about ten days beginning tomorrow evening.  I generally take a vacation from these discussions at those times, so I'm offering folks a chance to get in a few comments beforehand.  Or not.

     Personally, I'm more of a Captain Crunch kind of guy, and not so much a Fruitloops Fella.  Not that anyone asked.
Bob K
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134 posted 07-16-2010 04:22 AM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



1)     Which "left agenda" are you folks talking about?

2)     Who is the "professor" that the two of you seem to agree on disparaging?  There are a fair number of foolish  academics.  That doesn't mean that they are incompetent in their fields, though they may well be.

     How are the rest of us to know if we agree with you or not unless you're specific about who you're talking about?

3)     The make-up of the Tea Party Movement, from all that I can see, is pretty much the same as the rest of the population.  

     This may, however, mean a number of different things, and they have not been discriminated one from another at this time in any sort of orderly fashion.  One of the possible hypotheses that could be tested is that the number of racists is evenly divided across the population spectrum, and that the Tea Party has simply drawn a proportionate number of racists from across the spectrum.  It would be difficult to prove that all the racists are concentrated in The Tea Party Movement, since I've seen some racists who claim to not be Tea Party Nation members.  

     And there must be some Tea Party Nation members who are not racists, like our own extraordinary Denise.

     Nevertheless, having the same statistical make-up as the population doesn't mean that the Tea Party Nation is not racist unless one makes the Racist assumption that racism is the product of certain races and not of the human condition.  

     I tend to go with the current anthropology, which says that there really is no such thing as race. There's no space to talk about that here, though.  It'd be interesting to talk about the subject.

     It's unlikely that all the racists in the country are members of the Tea Party Nation, but probably no more illogical than assuming that The Tea Party Nation is not more racist (or less racist, for that matter) than the rest of us folks.

     It might be a fair bet, for example, that there are as many left handers in the Tea Party Nation, proportionally, as there are in the rest of the nation, but simply because the demographics of race are the same, that doesn't mean that the proportion of left handers in the Tea Party Nation needs to be the same.

     I am fairly suspicious of those left handers.  I have known some of them, and all the left handers I have known have been sinister.  (there is actually a bad pun there.  I have known some cheery left handers.  Cheery but sinister nontheless.)

     More than enough for this hour.
Balladeer
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135 posted 07-16-2010 08:25 AM       View Profile for Balladeer   Email Balladeer   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Balladeer's Home Page   View IP for Balladeer

I agree, Bob. I know one left-hander who is very sinister!
Denise
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136 posted 07-16-2010 09:22 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

I don't believe that blacks are inherently disadvantaged in society by virtue of their race, Jen. I believe that everyone, if they apply themselves and have a burning desire to accomplish their dreams can do so in America. I don't believe that those who have achieved great success are just a fluke. To me, believing otherwise is the real racism.

I am beginning to suspect that conseratives and liberals have different definitions of racism. And I don't believe that the NAACP, liberal professors and University Race Studies Departments have the final word on the definition. Maybe that is the dialogue that should be happening in society today, rather than their playing the race card at every opportunity. All that does is shuts down the ability for an honest and open debate.

From what I gather of Ben Jealous's remarks about the signs at the Tea Party that indicated racism were the ones that depicted Obama as the Joker and with a Hitler mustache. Please, the same political comments through signs were directed at Bush. It isn't racism simply because Obama is now in the hot-seat and he happens to be black. Distasteful, perhaps, but not racist. And his call for the Tea Parties to denounce racism, in light of his unproven allegations about the N word being used against the Black Democratic Caucus members, well they already did that back when it was alleged to have happened. He is disingenous, to say the least.

I think the numbers can indicate issues other than 'racism', Ron. The Great Society policies may have been well intentioned but have done nothing to empower the black community. Generations of blacks have been made dependent on the government from cradle to grave as a result, practically destroying the family structure and contributing to the current day 70% out-of-wedlock birth rate, and the 50% school drop-out rate. I believe these facts play a significant role in the depressed representation among blacks in the upper echelons of business, moreso than 'racism', in my opinion.

I brought up the statistical representation of the Tea Parties as being representative of the population in general to refute the allegations that since the number of blacks was only 12% that somehow that proves the Tea Parties are racist. It doesn't prove that at all. In fact, considering that upwards of 95% of Black Americans still support Obama and his policies, 12% is quite significant.

You obviously didn't read the article that I presented, Bob, that clarified the way the Civil Rights Division typically handles cases, especially when another election is fast approaching: The Civil Case first, and then, if they believe it is warranted, the Criminal Case. It rebuts Media Matters view of things. Holder didn't even let the Civil default judgment stand, let alone consider a criminal prosecution.

I hope you and your wife enjoy your vacation, Bob!

Fruit Loops rule, Michael! Actually, I am quite non-discriminatory in my cereal preferences. I like them all!

[This message has been edited by Denise (07-16-2010 10:10 AM).]

Huan Yi
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137 posted 07-16-2010 10:28 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


“And UC Berkeley has apologized to the Asian community for their past admissions practices and has proposed a change in admission policies under which 50 percent of their student body - not 40 percent - will be admitted on academic merit.”


http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/Col  lege-Admission-Quotas-Against-Asian-Americans-Why-Is-the-Civil-Rights-Community-Silent


.
Grinch
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138 posted 07-16-2010 02:34 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch

quote:
I brought up the statistical representation of the Tea Parties as being representative of the population in general.


I’d be interested to see that – where is it Denise.

.
Denise
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139 posted 07-16-2010 02:49 PM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

It was in this link here about the Tea Party supporters make-up which mirrors the general population:
http://weeklystandard.com/blogs/tea-parties-look-america
Bob K
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140 posted 07-16-2010 03:20 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Actually, Denise, I read it before I read the Media Matters article.

     Which you might try reading, especially about the same issues.  But also about the Bush Administration's president in the 2006 Minuteman case and the standard of proof issues.  If the case can't meet the civil standard, which the Bush administration decided in the 2008 case, then it will not meet the tougher criminal standard.  That the Holder DOJ got a judgement against Shabazz in 2009 was fortunate, but not a foregone conclusion by any means.  The Bush DOJ decided there was not enough evidence for civil action against the others.

     I wouldn't want to defend the Obama DOJ in every case about everything, including torture and Gitmo and The PATRIOT ACT, among other issues.  I believe they have some major flaws, and the two of us might even agree about the need to get the Posse Comitatus provisions reinstated and some other major issues.  About this one, we disagree.

     I know you don't like Media Matters on principle, but you really ought to read the article and judge it on the basis of fact, and do some fact-checking in neutral sources.

     Not left wing.  Not right wing.  Neutral.
Grinch
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141 posted 07-16-2010 03:45 PM       View Profile for Grinch   Email Grinch   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Grinch


Thanks Denise.
quote:
I brought up the statistical representation of the Tea Parties as being representative of the population in general


After looking at the Gallup poll that the article is based on I’d say that your statement is fundamentally flawed. The poll presents absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Tea Party members are ‘representative of the population in general’.

Free beer and ice-cream anyone?


Huan Yi
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142 posted 07-16-2010 04:52 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.

Where's the site for that poll?

.
Ron
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143 posted 07-16-2010 05:18 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
The Great Society policies may have been well intentioned but have done nothing to empower the black community. Generations of blacks have been made dependent on the government from cradle to grave as a result, practically destroying the family structure and contributing to the current day 70% out-of-wedlock birth rate, and the 50% school drop-out rate. I believe these facts play a significant role in the depressed representation among blacks in the upper echelons of business, moreso than 'racism', in my opinion.

Denise, while I certainly agree that entitlements hurt as much as they help, none of those entitlements have been reserved for blacks. They apply equally to ALL races and, in my opinion, with much the same results for all the races. Being applied equally, they CANNOT account for the clear statistical inequalities.

Why do you think women earn less than men, Denise? Do you deny the existence of sexism as well?
Huan Yi
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144 posted 07-16-2010 05:41 PM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


As an immigrant to this country
I didn't have to go to Vietnam to find out
that a black American could be just
as bigoted as a white one so killing
all the WASPs wouldn't solve the problem.

I have recently heard the phrase
"under-represented minorities" used
to get around the problem with Asians
who even just relatively off the boat
without decades of affirmative action
seem to be doing pretty well.

As far as sexism, given the same career
path, I would be surprised.

Equality of opportunity does not by itself guarantee equality of result

.
Bob K
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145 posted 07-16-2010 07:47 PM       View Profile for Bob K   Email Bob K   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Bob K



     Sorry I won't be around for a few weeks to respond in depth, but I think your comments about the Johnson era programs, Denise, need to be backed up.  I'd like, especially, to see your sources that back the claims you make about Headstart, which is a very widely researched program.  If what you say is true, you should find loads and loads and loads of articles from educational journals to back you up, almost all of them in agreement.

    If what you say isn't true, then you're going to be doing a lot of picking and choosing from second-class and third-class publications and from political rags.

     I can't wait.
Ron
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146 posted 07-16-2010 07:57 PM       View Profile for Ron   Email Ron   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems   Click to visit Ron's Home Page   View IP for Ron

quote:
Equality of opportunity does not by itself guarantee equality of result

Actually, John, yes it does.

Not for the individual, perhaps, but certainly for large enough population segments. I don't care if you're talking about 10 percent of the population being left-handed, 50 percent being female, 12 percent being homosexual, 11 percent being black, or 7.8 percent being diabetic. In a perfect equal-opportunity world, those statistics will translate to ALL applicable endeavors within the population, with only relatively tiny margins of errors.

Ten percent of all top CEOs should be left-handed. And they probably are.

I can guarantee you, however, that 12 percent aren't homosexual, 11 percent aren't black, and 50 percent aren't women. Trying to blame that disparity on the victims of prejudice is the very definition of racism, sexism, and homophobia. The irony is that most people who are guilty of prejudice don't even know it. They look for justifications and rationalizations to explain away the inequities they clearly don't want to face and apparently don't want to change.
Denise
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147 posted 07-17-2010 08:03 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

The NBP case did meet the standard for a civil case, Bob. The court date was set, the Panthers didn't show up, the DOJ won by default. THEN the DOJ, after winning the case while awaiting the sentencing by the judge, after having been lobbied by the NAACP,dismissed the civil case.

I never made any claims against Headstart, Bob.

How is it flawed Grinch? The claim is that 23% of Tea Party supporters are non-white Anglos. The percentage for the nation is 25% non-white Anglo. That seems pretty respresentative to me. I can't find the link for the Gallup poll provided in the article. Do you have it available?

Yes, Ron, of course there is racism and sexism, and there probably always will be to some extent.

I think the differences in our defintions of what constitutes racism, and the extent to which it still exists, explains our different viewpoints.
Denise
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148 posted 07-17-2010 08:42 AM       View Profile for Denise   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Denise

quote:
Two former U.S. Department of Justice attorneys have corroborated key elements of the explosive allegations by a third former attorney that the Voting Section of the DOJ's Civil Rights Division is refusing to enforce the law against black defendants.

On July 6, former DOJ attorney J. Christian Adams testified before the U.S. Civil Rights Commission that the Voting Section is dominated by a "culture of hostility" toward bringing cases against blacks and other minorities who violate voting rights laws.

One of Adams' DOJ colleagues, former Voting Section trial attorney Hans A. von Spakovsky, told WND he saw Adams was being attacked in the media for lack of corroboration. He said he knew Adams was telling the truth, so he decided on his own to step forward.

In an affidavit dated yesterday, von Spakovsky stated, "I can confirm from my own experience as a career lawyer that there was a dominant attitude within the Division and the Voting Section of hostility towards the race-neutral enforcement of voting rights law."

Von Spakowsky also asked another old colleague, former DOJ Special Counsel for Voting Matters Karl S. Bowers Jr., to go on the record. Bowers is now in private practice in South Carolina.

In his own affidavit, Bowers stated: "In my experience, there was a pervasive culture in the Civil Rights Division and within the Voting Section of apathy and in some cases outright hostility, towards race-neutral enforcement of voting rights laws among large segments of career attorneys."

In his affidavit, von Spakovsky, now a Senior Legal Fellow in the Center for Legal & Judicial Studies at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C., backed up Adams' testimony that Voting Section staff lawyers were harassed by their colleagues for working on a case brought against a black activist.

According to von Spakovsky, former Voting Section Chief Christopher Coates was harassed "over his work on the Brown case because they did not believe that the Justice Department should file any lawsuit under the Voting Rights Act against black defendants, no matter how egregious their violations of the law."

Von Spakovsky also confirmed Adams' allegations that the DOJ has brought "hundreds" of cases against white defendants but only two cases against black defendants. He agreed with Adams that DOJ's dismissal of most charges in one of the cases after the Obama administration took over in 2009, the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case, was "unprecedented."

When they were ordered to stop prosecution, Adams and the team of DOJ lawyers had already won the case by default because the New Black Panthers declined to defend themselves in court. At that point in the proceedings, the DOJ team was simply waiting for the judge to assign penalties against the New Black Panthers.

Adams claimed that the decision to drop the case was made by Obama political appointees. Dropping a case that was already won was "unprecedented," he said.

Adams alleged that many DOJ employees, both career civil servants and political appointees, have told him that the DOJ "doesn't have the resources" to enforce the voting-rights laws in a "race-neutral" manner by bringing cases against members of minority groups who violate the law. Others have refused to work on either of the two cases against black perpetrators, saying, "I didn’t join the voting-rights division to sue black people."

Adams said one DOJ staffer told his former superior, Christopher Coates, then the chief of the DOJ's Voting Section, "Can you believe we’re being sent down to Mississippi to defend white people?" He reported another staffer told Coates, "the Brown case has gotten us into so much trouble with civil-rights groups."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=180129

Two more previous DOJ attorneys have come forward to submit affidavits to corroborate Adams' testimony of the DOJ's non-race-neutral prosecutorial policies.

quote:
...the DOJ "doesn't have the resources" to enforce the voting-rights laws in a "race-neutral" manner by bringing cases against members of minority groups who violate the law


One might ask, are there that many?
Huan Yi
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149 posted 07-17-2010 09:36 AM       View Profile for Huan Yi   Email Huan Yi   Edit/Delete Message      Find Poems  View IP for Huan Yi

.


Ron,


How do you explain the universities finding
they had a problem with Asians taking so
many places in their classes they resorted
to qoutas to limit their numbers?  I think
nurture plays a role.

John
 
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